Soarin' and The Land changes - what is your opinion?

[Epcot82Guy]

Wow... haven't checked this thread all day. Been missing quite the discussion.

Anyway, just a few thoughts I would toss in:

1. I think the fact this is the "battle" we are having is quite a step in the right direction. I haven't read really anyone that thinks the new design is completely off base. The "complaints" seem to range from it being "not organic enough" to it being just a bit confusing and haphazard in placement (i.e. the transition from LwtL to the airport is a bit contrived). Compared with Stitch, IMAG, Toad, etc., this has actually been quite successful. They took something out (Food Rocks and the fountain) which people enjoyed, but they did not have "followings" and replaced it with an attraction that I would argue is the most Epcot-ish to come out of WDI in the last 10 years (even more so that M:S, IMHO).

2. The notion of symbiosis is not created. WDI made very conscious decisions in these designs for this pavilion. This pavilion started work before any others (with the exception of SSE). It had greenhouse designers, architects, landscape designers, etc. To say this was just a bit of WDI tossed toether is simply not true. Mansion has a story evolved through small bits of information given by WDI; The Land is a lot more deliberate.

3. The look of this place is great! I am not one that is complaining because it is new and that means we have to complain. The old Land had lots of flaws. It was an 80s mall for all practical purposes. Food Rocks was a poor re-incarnation, and it needed help. This new pavilion is bright and kinetic. I think this whole process is alot like cooking at an Italian restaurant. The old recipe worked and was time-tested, but it lacked flavor and excitement. It's a well done bowl of pasta on nice, white (well, multi-colored, but you get the point) dinnerware. This new version is an explosion of very well designed and integrated elements. It has things you would never think would mix, but they do, and it has all the "energy" a good meal needs. However, they decided to serve it on an amorphously cut pastel mosaic plate (literally from the look of the carpeting) that is so busy it almost takes over the food itself. It mskes one lose focus first of what is presented (the food) and where one is (i.e. serving on crazy modern plates in a traditional Italian restaurant). They just took one step too far without incorporating something classic on the other side. Intermediate carpeting that represents streams, adding more representations to look like trunks, anything that takes a modern, streamlined look at nature would have pushed it just far enough back the other way to make the transition flawless. I guess they used just 1 tsp. too much raspberry vinagrette on the project where they completely and successfully re-invented the basic, boring house salad.

I guess the entire point of Epcot is progress, and that is founded in Symbiosis that is progressive. The future is founded in taking what works from the past, incorporating reminders of those successes, changing what needs changing, and trying new things with intentions of changing. This puts a heavy burden on the details. Things have to work together and flow. That is good story telling. That is true Epcot (and true Disney).

 

[Buzzy989]

The Land: What's it all about?

Hey, folks at WDWMagic! This has been a very engaging discussion about The Land - - it's amazing how the pavilion's retheming has provoked so much thought and discussion. We each have an idea about what The Land is and should continue to be, and if you think that there's no definite answer, you're right! Just like the promises of the future, the destiny of every pavilion is uncertain and subject to much change and progress. Epcot should continue to be a dynamic, inspiring place, and its spirit lives within its changing shows and attractions.

Epcot is also a place of strong traditions, which are idealistic and optimistic, full of hope and celebration. The Land was founded on a strong traditional theme: the co-dependence between humans and the land. This theme is still expressed in the golden plaque that sits subtly outside the new exitway, and it defines the purpose and meaning of the pavilion.

The new design of the pavilion is hip, exciting, fresh, and new. There's no doubt about that! But the Disney design team, in choosing the new theme for the interior, has abandoned a very important tradition of The Land. This tradition is that of the intimate, joyful relationship between mankind and the land that nourishes him. The '94 rehab didn't necessarily do the best job in conveying this theme: as you all have pointed out, many guests "didn't get it" or weren't moved to heightened environmental awareness. But this aspect has now been lost almost entirely by the new thematic additions to The Land. Disney designers had the opportunity to stir the minds and hearts of its guests by strengthening the themes of the earth and environmentalism, yet they abandoned this opportunity. Epcot is about these sorts of big themes, and it was created to raise the awareness of guests and inspire them to change their lives in response; at its heart, this is what Epcot should be. But the messages of earth, environment, and symbiosis have been diluted with the new "airport" overlay, leading us to question the direction of Epcot's identity and progress.

Consider the following points:

1) The "Sunshine Season Food Fair" was the heart of the pavilion, both in a literal sense and in a thematic sense. It was a celebration of what the earth has given us, and it hearkened back to the days of farm life and country fairs. ("Farmer's Market" conveyed the same overall idea, but the Sunshine Season Food Fair was a more colorful, vibrant approach to this theme.) The Land has always featured new biotechnologies and ways of harvesting food, but the heart of the pavilion lay in the sheer joy of this "partnership" between man and the earth. In many ways, this was nostalgic: we used to be a lot more in touch with the land and structured our lives around its changes and its whims. Now we try to control it and dominate it to suit our needs.

The old pavilion had a celebratory, joyful spirit. It reminded us of the simple things in life and of our old, more harmonious relationships with the land, and it reminded us that we are part of a long story. It was a place to relax by the fountain and enjoy the atmosphere. The Land was truly, at heart, a "Food Fair." But notice that the new central restaurant has dropped "Food Fair" from its name! The new pavilion is no longer joyful, no longer a lighthearted celebration. It is modern and functional, and no longer hearkens back to that old, organic relationship that is so vital.

Consider the new "Sunshine Seasons," which is now present in its completed form and was designed by the same team that worked on the All-Star and Pop Century Resorts (as you can probably tell, anyway!). According to the staff and management of The Land, *no* further thematic additions will be made to the eatery beyond the installation of such minor items as menus (much to our dismay). The entire "Food Fair" ambience is gone.

Here's the new eatery:

And here are some images of the old one:

We've lost a very important element of The Land, and I hope that you can see this. And if we think about the theme of symbiosis, I hope that you also realize that the change is hardly for the better.

2) The old land provided a strong image of fertility, conveyed by the deep, vibrant colors and the waters of the fountain. It provided a feeling of life and vitality, of the bounty of the land and its natural resources. Contrast that with the sterility of the new pavilion design: the whiteness of the walls (why is there a bare white wall to the left of the Harvest Theater?), the white shininess of the floor and of the seating area counters, the cold and metallic nature of the new railings. The new design makes little effort to mimic the fertility of nature and the outdoors; again, it it purely modern, clean, and functional. The old pavilion was focused on the land as life-giving; but where is this key element in the new design? There is a sharp contrast between the industrial and the natural within the new pavilion, and there is no intermingling or harmony between the two.

Consider what a little kid would see when coming into The Land, and think about its thematic implications:

On a different note, remember that kids tended to enjoy the free, celebratory atmosphere of the old pavilion. . . but they may find the new design to be more cold and boring (not as fancy free a place to hang out). The fonts and logos are not as fun, most of the vivid colors have been whitewashed over, and the food is not served in the same unique setting. The new pavilion doesn't necessarily cater as well to families in its theming and atmosphere.

3) It is our responsibility to be stewards of the land. We are its farmers and tenders and tenants, and the old pavilion conveyed the idea of harvest and the joy that comes with it. Where does the new pavilion, especially in its central "Sunshine Seasons," convey the idea of harvest time?

The new design of Sunshine Seasons is consumeristic. It does not encourage us at all, whatsoever, to be good stewards of our earth!

Here are some reminders of the elements of the old pavilion that promoted the idea of an intimate man-earth relationship. The presence of nature and our role as stewards is much more tangible here than in the new pavilion:

4) Details matter! You will remember that this photo comes from The Land - - it uniquely conveys that gardening sort of spirit and is linked to the man-earth relationship through the larger theming of the area:

But consider the new restrooms; who is to say that the following picture doesn't come from anywhere else in Future World? Or from your regular shopping mall? (A lot of people argue that the changes make the pavilion look like classic "Future World". . . but at the same time the pavilion is looking less and less land-inspired!)

The new pavilion design is no longer as unique or spirited in its conveying of our relationships with the earth, and it even shows in the little details!


Remember the old theme song of the pavilion, which contains the perennial theme and spirit of The Land: "Let's listen to the land we all love, nature's plan will shine above." The love and warmth of the old pavilion have been replaced with a feeling of sterile functionality, and the joy of nature (that old celebratory spirit!) doesn't show itself in the new design. The new design is not as heartfelt, not as original, not as authentic.

Keep these ideas and ideals in mind as you evaluate the new pavilion. We still have a wealth of good experiences in The Land (old and new), but I hope that you realize the vital attributes that the pavilion has lost. Don't forget the important traditions and identity of The Land, as they are what give Epcot its power to communicate its core values to all generations!

Over and out!
Captain Buzzy

 

[speck76]

again.....you are comparing a finished product with one that is not even operational yet.....

Another thing is the tradition you speak of is more your view of the tradition, not really tradition by design.

 

[General Grizz]

again.....you are comparing a finished product with one that is not even operational yet.....

I'm not sure if that's going to make too much of a difference in the next few days:

According to the staff and management of The Land, *no* further thematic additions will be made to the eatery beyond the installation of such minor items as menus (much to our dismay).

 

[Buzzy989]

again.....you are comparing a finished product with one that is not even operational yet.....

Another thing is the tradition you speak of is more your view of the tradition, not really tradition by design.

Thanks, Grizz, for clarifying that first point. What we see is, for all practical purposes, is what we'll get, according to management.

As for your second point:

The tradition I speak of, founded in the themes of symbiosis and the respect for the simple, yet profound interconnections between man and earth, has been established by the design of the pavilion over the years. The tradition is not set in stone, nor is it ever dictated in a fixed "design" or "plan" for the pavilion: it never can be. I'm talking, rather, about a value system that The Land has developed over the last twenty-three years in its portrayal of its central themes and messages. It is unfortunate that such aspects of a central tradition, aspects that have carried such important meaning, have been lost (as I point out in my little write-up above!).

Captain Buzzy

 

[thedisneyfan]

again.....you are comparing a finished product with one that is not even operational yet.....

Another thing is the tradition you speak of is more your view of the tradition, not really tradition by design.

Well the restroom signs above are finished and if I didn't know, I thought that somebody snapped a photo of restroom signs at my local hospital. :hurl:

I see the imagineers working hard on that one: what do we do for the restroom signs for the Land pavillion? Oh I know, Sears catalog page 57!

 

[Wckd Queen]

Once again, these arguements against the new design of the pavilion are wrought with opinion.

It is an opinion that one felt the old design conveyed fertility and warmth. It is opinion that the "symbiosis" was felt (because, having been thru every design of the land to date, with the exception of this one, I know that I certainly didnt feel it) It is opinion that the food court was the "heart" of the old pavilion...it was in the center of it, much like the food courts of malls are, if thats what is meant by "heart". It is opinion that the set up of the old food court was better, much as it is opinion that the omission of "Food Fair" from the new sign makes a huge difference in how people view the pavilion.

Presenting opinion as though it were fact to further an agenda does not make that opinion fact :wave:

 

[nicholas]

If they gave out a Pulitzer for propaganda, I know a few nominees.

 

[wannab@dis]

If they gave out a Pulitzer for propaganda, I know a few nominees.

:sohappy:

Best post of the thread!

So....these people are upset because the story that they themselves fabricated is no longer represented?

WOW :hammer:

Fabricated may not be the word I would use... more like believed too much in their OWN opinion and view of the pavilion. When it changed, their world was turned upside down.

 

[Buzzy989]

The Land We All Love

Once again, these arguements against the new design of the pavilion are wrought with opinion. . . . Presenting opinion as though it were fact to further an agenda does not make that opinion fact :wave:

You're exactly right! Not everyone felt that the old Land featured the best design possible, and, after ten years of that design, I was ready for some fresh changes, too. There are a lot of great things that are coming with the new pavilion, and I think that The Land still has a promising future - - and most of you have expressed this view quite well.

What I've tried to do is point out some key, meaningful elements of the traditional pavilion that have been lost. This does not mean that the new pavilion is inherently bad - - I'm sure that the Imagineers referred back to the threads of symbiosis as they redesigned the pavilion. Many of us have found some significant, interesting elements in the new pavilion. But many of us, also, have enjoyed some elements of the old pavilion that will be missing from the new one. Elements that have always defined the Land experience for many Epcot fans.

What I mean by "Food Fair" is that sense of earthy celebration and joy, which the food court used to show in its spirit and decor, yet no longer does. I encourage you to read through the original posts on The Land, when we weren't sure exactly what the rehab would be like - - and you'll receive that sense of common consensus regarding the warm, vibrant, original, spirited celebration of symbiosis. I am also a writer for D-Troops, and I can say (with much gratitude) that the Imagineers may have taken some cues from Disney fans in keeping the balloons, in keeping a lot of the earthy elements of the pavilion instead of overhauling everything. Our messages have circulated around the creative teams, and they care about long-time guests and Cast Members who have come to know and understand the pavilion and its messages (since the designers of the '82 pavilion are not the same designers of the new one).

Our only concern (and I'm speaking for those who can identify with what has been lost from the pavilion) is that the spirit of life and celebration represented by the balloons is no longer a unifying factor for the pavilion. Sunshine Seasons, now, is practically carbon copy of what we may find at one of the All-Star resorts, not installed in a spirit of originality, but rather in a spirit of functionality.

Our concern is that Epcot may become too random, no longer presenting its themed pavilions with that spirit of optimistic, creative unity. Remember those old Epcot symbols? They were a way of uniting all of the pavilions, and they were featured throughout the Future World decor. The pavilions were all united in purpose, and their themes were interconnected. They spoke about "big ideas" and general ideas and industries; in essence, there was a symbiosis to the entire park.

But note that the Land symbol has been removed from the pavilion, replaced with a just a coat of white paint. Future World West (the side with The Land) has become increasingly (to borrow a word of one of our WDWMagic posters) schizophrenic. We have a pavilion defined by the human senses, a pavilion defined by the experience of Soarin' (the lower level of The Land was designed to resemble an airport terminal to match Soarin'), and a pavilion that will be defined by Finding Nemo (HINT: in the not-too-distant future, the story of The Living Seas and the hydrolators will likely be completely changed into an exploration of Nemo's habitat!).

The areas of Epcot are becoming more and more narrow and strained in their approach to their themes, and now big "disconnections" are happening among the pavilions. They just don't flow together as well, and what we see happening in The Land - - with the disjointedness between the old aspects and the new aspects - - is a small-scale representation of what's happening in the big picture.

Some members of my family recently made a visit to Epcot, and spoke with some Cast Members who we have befriended over the years. Many long-time Cast Members, who have worked at Epcot for years and have known the older incarnations of The Land, do not like the new changes. If you ask some of them, they won't even feel like talking to you about the new Land. They identify with what has been lost, with what I have been trying to point out in my posts. Several feel embarrassed about the new Sunshine Seasons restaurant and its lack of theming. Other Cast Members have reacted without such displeasure, but rather with acceptance: they see the idea of Epcot as slowly dissolving, and have accepted some recent and impending changes as a sign of what's inevitable. I (and many other fans, including those who run D-Troops) have the hope that some of these traditions may continue.

Not all of you necessarily care about this dimension of Epcot (and it is a dimension of Epcot that was purposefully crafted by its creators. For you, what I am writing must seem like propaganda - - but it's not. Each of you has wonderful, strong, important opinions - - and Disney created The Land for you. . . you are its audience. What you think and have to say is important, and Disney is interested to hear it. Many of you don't mind losing some of the traditional show aspects of The Land, and that's fine! But there are others of us who see it as a problem.

I am wanting to point out, overall, that there are many important dimensions of The Land that have been lost, and this will significantly change the experience for many of us. We're all excited about the new Land, but not all of us are excited about all of it. For many of us, it's a symptom of a wider change occurring around Epcot - - for some of us, it's a change for the better. For others of us, it's an uninspired change.

I hope this clarifies any misunderstanding. But there's one important thing: we each are concerned about The Land and it's role in Epcot's best interest. The Land has been reopened, and it's a cause for celebration! So let's continue to share our opinions with civility, and let's each enjoy whatever strikes us deepest, whatever moves our heartstrings, and whatever lifts our spirit in the great pavilion that is The Land!

Captain Buzzy

 

[speck76]

Buzzy....you do realize the Epcot is a Theme Park.....and for 99.999999% of the visitors to Epcot, it is ONLY a theme park.


It is not about the message.

It is not about the spirit.

It is about spending $60 and being entertained.

 

[Wckd Queen]

You're exactly right! Not everyone felt that the old Land featured the best design possible, and, after ten years of that design, I was ready for some fresh changes, too. There are a lot of great things that are coming with the new pavilion, and I think that The Land still has a promising future - - and most of you have expressed this view quite well.

What I've tried to do is point out some key, meaningful elements of the traditional pavilion that have been lost. This does not mean that the new pavilion is inherently bad - - I'm sure that the Imagineers referred back to the threads of symbiosis as they redesigned the pavilion. Many of us have found some significant, interesting elements in the new pavilion. But many of us, also, have enjoyed some elements of the old pavilion that will be missing from the new one. Elements that have always defined the Land experience for many Epcot fans.

What I mean by "Food Fair" is that sense of earthy celebration and joy, which the food court used to show in its spirit and decor, yet no longer does. I encourage you to read through the original posts on The Land, when we weren't sure exactly what the rehab would be like - - and you'll receive that sense of common consensus regarding the warm, vibrant, original, spirited celebration of symbiosis. I am also a writer for D-Troops, and I can say (with much gratitude) that the Imagineers may have taken some cues from Disney fans in keeping the balloons, in keeping a lot of the earthy elements of the pavilion instead of overhauling everything. Our messages have circulated around the creative teams, and they care about long-time guests and Cast Members who have come to know and understand the pavilion and its messages (since the designers of the '82 pavilion are not the same designers of the new one).

Our only concern (and I'm speaking for those who can identify with what has been lost from the pavilion) is that the spirit of life and celebration represented by the balloons is no longer a unifying factor for the pavilion. Sunshine Seasons, now, is practically carbon copy of what we may find at one of the All-Star resorts, not installed in a spirit of originality, but rather in a spirit of functionality.

Our concern is that Epcot may become too random, no longer presenting its themed pavilions with that spirit of optimistic, creative unity. Remember those old Epcot symbols? They were a way of uniting all of the pavilions, and they were featured throughout the Future World decor. The pavilions were all united in purpose, and their themes were interconnected. They spoke about "big ideas" and general ideas and industries; in essence, there was a symbiosis to the entire park.

But note that the Land symbol has been removed from the pavilion, replaced with a just a coat of white paint. Future World West (the side with The Land) has become increasingly (to borrow a word of one of our WDWMagic posters) schizophrenic. We have a pavilion defined by the human senses, a pavilion defined by the experience of Soarin' (the lower level of The Land was designed to resemble an airport terminal to match Soarin'), and a pavilion that will be defined by Finding Nemo (HINT: in the not-too-distant future, the story of The Living Seas and the hydrolators will likely be completely changed into an exploration of Nemo's habitat!).

The areas of Epcot are becoming more and more narrow and strained in their approach to their themes, and now big "disconnections" are happening among the pavilions. They just don't flow together as well, and what we see happening in The Land - - with the disjointedness between the old aspects and the new aspects - - is a small-scale representation of what's happening in the big picture.

Some members of my family recently made a visit to Epcot, and spoke with some Cast Members who we have befriended over the years. Many long-time Cast Members, who have worked at Epcot for years and have known the older incarnations of The Land, do not like the new changes. If you ask some of them, they won't even feel like talking to you about the new Land. They identify with what has been lost, with what I have been trying to point out in my posts. Several feel embarrassed about the new Sunshine Seasons restaurant and its lack of theming. Other Cast Members have reacted without such displeasure, but rather with acceptance: they see the idea of Epcot as slowly dissolving, and have accepted some recent and impending changes as a sign of what's inevitable. I (and many other fans, including those who run D-Troops) have the hope that some of these traditions may continue.

Not all of you necessarily care about this dimension of Epcot (and it is a dimension of Epcot that was purposefully crafted by its creators. For you, what I am writing must seem like propaganda - - but it's not. Each of you has wonderful, strong, important opinions - - and Disney created The Land for you. . . you are its audience. What you think and have to say is important, and Disney is interested to hear it. Many of you don't mind losing some of the traditional show aspects of The Land, and that's fine! But there are others of us who see it as a problem.

I am wanting to point out, overall, that there are many important dimensions of The Land that have been lost, and this will significantly change the experience for many of us. We're all excited about the new Land, but not all of us are excited about all of it. For many of us, it's a symptom of a wider change occurring around Epcot - - for some of us, it's a change for the better. For others of us, it's an uninspired change.

I hope this clarifies any misunderstanding. But there's one important thing: we each are concerned about The Land and it's role in Epcot's best interest. The Land has been reopened, and it's a cause for celebration! So let's continue to share our opinions with civility, and let's each enjoy whatever strikes us deepest, whatever moves our heartstrings, and whatever lifts our spirit in the great pavilion that is The Land!

Captain Buzzy

Well, I for one have no misunderstandings to clear up. When you strip away the fancy rhetoric~the poetic prose, if you will~all that is left are opinions of what things represent and how things should contunue to be represented within the pavilion to further an agenda. Yes, you are entitled to your opinions, but so are those who disagree with you. As Speck said, its a theme park. Its entertainment. Ride the rides and enjoy, because joy is an integral part of the symbiosis of life

 

[Epcot82Guy]

Well, I for one have no misunderstandings to clear up. When you strip away the fancy rhetoric~the poetic prose, if you will~all that is left are opinions of what things represent and how things should contunue to be represented within the pavilion to further an agenda. Yes, you are entitled to your opinions, but so are those who disagree with you. As Speck said, its a theme park. Its entertainment. Ride the rides and enjoy, because joy is an integral part of the symbiosis of life

I think this discussion might be the point of this entire debate. Let me preface this by saying nothing I say is meant here as an insult or claim of "degrading of society: or anything like that. Things change, that is my point. Having said that, I think the notion that Epcot "is just a theme park" is the entire problem. People are looking to be entertained. That's it. We like fast, quick statements that are easy to digest in 5 seconds and then on to the next. Any distraction that doesn't require thought or processing is adored. This is a large departure from what life was in the 70's when EPCOT Center was designed. This place was NOT just a theme park. It was a project in every sense of the word. Triple the budget, well beyond the project date, and having things no one envisioned were possible at the time. And, all of this in a package that forced people to observe, question, learn, and analyze. That is a lot of work for vacation, but people often found it provocative and exciting (I know I did as a child, even). But, alot of people found it boring. Therefore, is it better? no. Is the new version better? no. It is a business model. Unless we go through a radical societal change, Epcot works. EPCOT Center does not. This is VERY sad in my opinion, but that is my opinion. After all, why bother making creative, invoking stories if less than 0.1% of guests will get it?

Disney is now a business. It is not a mataphoric "artist." They have to look at profit and what guests want. It is not about making strong statements that will, possibly, attract an audience and become works for posterity. Ladies and gentlement, as cynical as that may sound, that is the state of things. We can't be mad at them for it. They would fold without it. I just hope and pray some creative executives will find a way to mesh the two so that we can still have art and business combined.

 

[Wckd Queen]

"Disney is now a business."

Truth of the matter is, Disney has always been a business. Yes, Walt was the dreamer, the first Imagineer. But Roy was the business man. Business may have changed from when Walt first started the company till now, but to say that it is "now" a business is rather presumtpuous and myopic. What was it before if it's only now a business? If Disney failed to turn a profit, then it would have ceased to exist, just like any other business, be it Walt himself at the helm or Eisner.

 

[Expo_Seeker40]

I like the new land. PLAIN AND SIMPLE!

 

[Epcot82Guy]

"Disney is now a business."

Truth of the matter is, Disney has always been a business. Yes, Walt was the dreamer, the first Imagineer. But Roy was the business man. Business may have changed from when Walt first started the company till now, but to say that it is "now" a business is rather presumtpuous and myopic. What was it before if it's only now a business? If Disney failed to turn a profit, then it would have ceased to exist, just like any other business, be it Walt himself at the helm or Eisner.

My statement was too broad. I should have said that the business of Disney under Walt took more of an artistic approach. He did not look necessarily to bottom lines or "norms" but instead to making something that was truly special. That was his business and it worked because of quality. This is still present, but the business business side of it all is now more apparent than ever. And that is not unique to Disney. We live in an advertisement-driven, appease the masses because trends die faster than flowers in winter (to make a Land reference), world. Disney has to keep up or fold OR find a new creative way to mesh the old and new together. Finding people to do that is very difficult, and keeping them is even more difficult. Longsight is a DANGEROUS game in today's business world without spreadsheets and figures. So, in short, I stand corrected that I should have said artistically minded, not pure "artist."

Anyway, I appologize for the thread drift here. Something I have been thinking about that would be a simple fix. I really think the "problem" people are having with the lower floor/atrium is the content moreso than material. It is the fact that the modern, sleek things are just pretty, modern, sleek things. What if plants were added in, be them real or artistic? I could actually see metal sculptures attached along the edge of each seating area that represent plants/trees in each season (i.e. ones somewhat withered with "frost"; opened for summer; buds in winter; colors in fall)? What if planters were suspended on modern art "branches" off the "trunks"? It seems like this could be a VERY fast and inexpensive addition that would make a dramatic change and tie in with the whole synthesis theme?

 

[POOHKILLEDTOAD]

I know I'm about to receive a TON of neg rep points for this, but I think the point everyone is missing is like it or not, Disney is a BUSINESS and has to be run as such. Disney's decision to redo the land was a business decision, the same as Stiches great escape, the death of Toad, and the removal of 20k. like it or not, these changes will bring in more money wether through increased attendance or market tie ins. without this new capital Disney would surely become run down and the rides would all resemble CoP...(as for that...well I can't explain the reason for its disrepair)
the way i look at it is as if someone died...remember them fondly and the memories will live on and become even more charished. then let go and realize no amount of writing, crying, or protesting will ever bring them back.

 

[wdwmagic]

Something I have been thinking about that would be a simple fix. I really think the "problem" people are having with the lower floor/atrium is the content moreso than material. It is the fact that the modern, sleek things are just pretty, modern, sleek things. What if plants were added in, be them real or artistic? I could actually see metal sculptures attached along the edge of each seating area that represent plants/trees in each season (i.e. ones somewhat withered with "frost"; opened for summer; buds in winter; colors in fall)? What if planters were suspended on modern art "branches" off the "trunks"? It seems like this could be a VERY fast and inexpensive addition that would make a dramatic change and tie in with the whole synthesis theme?

I think the point you may be missing, is that these "fixes" are not thought neccessary by the vast majority of people. 80% of the people in this limited poll are pleased with the new look land, and do not want to see it thrown back to parts of the previous pavilion.

As said before, design is a subjective thing, and it seems that you do not like the current design trend of WDI. The fact that you do not like the design, does not mean that it should be "fixed" to the way you would like.

 

[speck76]

I think this discussion might be the point of this entire debate. Let me preface this by saying nothing I say is meant here as an insult or claim of "degrading of society: or anything like that. Things change, that is my point. Having said that, I think the notion that Epcot "is just a theme park" is the entire problem. People are looking to be entertained. That's it. We like fast, quick statements that are easy to digest in 5 seconds and then on to the next. Any distraction that doesn't require thought or processing is adored. This is a large departure from what life was in the 70's when EPCOT Center was designed. This place was NOT just a theme park. It was a project in every sense of the word. Triple the budget, well beyond the project date, and having things no one envisioned were possible at the time. And, all of this in a package that forced people to observe, question, learn, and analyze. That is a lot of work for vacation, but people often found it provocative and exciting (I know I did as a child, even). But, alot of people found it boring. Therefore, is it better? no. Is the new version better? no. It is a business model. Unless we go through a radical societal change, Epcot works. EPCOT Center does not. This is VERY sad in my opinion, but that is my opinion. After all, why bother making creative, invoking stories if less than 0.1% of guests will get it?

Read This http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showthread.php?t=43718&page=1&pp=15

When Epcot was designed, the company and imagineers had this fanciful idea that they were going to make social change......it did not happen.

Out of the 52 million visitors to Orlando this year, about 10-11 million will end up at Epcot. I may be going out on a limb here, but I would guess than pretty close to zero of those guests are visiting Epcot for anything other than a trip to the park...a chance to experience some thrills, some shows, and some food.

Epcot is successful in large part because it is in Orlando, and part of the Walt Disney World resort. If the original park was not built at the World's #1 vacation destination, we would all be talking about it in the past tense, as it would have never survived in its original format.

 

[Epcot82Guy]

I think that was kind of my point. Today's audience doesn't go for what Epcot envisioned. Therefore, it had to change. However, to completely abandon the original concept WHEN IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE may be a step too far.