So why exactly did Disney ruin Journey Into Imagination?

[Goofyernmost]

At least they decided to ditch the Re-imagining of the of the Pavilion to Phineas & Ferb since the show ended..There was even concept art of the dancing fountain area where the Figment Topiary stood and the now Visa Chase photo spot...Also Notice the lady in the concept art.. The image is the same woman from Spaceship Earth in the 80's section of Computer technology....They may have had plans to have her as a face character at one point perhaps?

Which I think is to bad. Phineas & Ferb would have been perfect as a replacement. It involves imagination in all forms, is very funny, was well written, and would have been entertaining. It all could have incorporated the turn-table and been very light, and informative without being in your face about the process. I'd know what we are going to do today. Going to that ride. I realize that many people never really saw that show as anything other then a kids program, but, like so many other intelligent cartoons, so much of the dialog went way over the heads of children with the meaning of words instead of the superficial simplicity. Pun's and inside jokes were plentiful. I was exposed to it in marathon style when I was taking care of my smallest Granddaughter. She loved it and I grew to love it as well. At the very least it should be the 3D show in the theater. Lends itself to that very easily.

 

[Time_machine]

What we do know about the closure of JII;

Futureworld was undergoing its first overhaul
JII was expensive to maintain
Kodak wanted to go "hip" (see Food Rocks)
The ride system and in particular the rotating Flight to Imagination interlock never fully functioned as designed. The latter was still a constant issue. It was ahead of its time in 1982 and was never revisited (today it would be simple)
A smaller overall floorspace would be easier and cost less to maintain.

Could you elaborate on what made the original JII so expensive to maintain? I'm aware that the 'turntable' was jam packed with effects (I still can't figure out how they managed to connect all the electrical and hydraulic lines to all five 'theatres' without making an absolute mess of it) but the rest of the ride seemed rather conservative in the effects department. If I'm not mistaken, the ride mostly relied on relatively simple mechanical and projection/light based effects and was pretty light on AAs when compared to attractions like Horizons or SSE. Was the turntable a money pit for maintenance or were some of the more advanced effects like the laser projectors unreliable?

Moreover, do you happen to know how they attempted to correct the issues with the problematic ride system? Did they replacethe original GPRCS module with something more powerful, for instance?

Which I think is to bad. Phineas & Ferb would have been perfect as a replacement. It involves imagination in all forms, is very funny, was well written, and would have been entertaining. It all could have incorporated the turn-table and been very light, and informative without being in your face about the process. I'd know what we are going to do today. Going to that ride. I realize that many people never really saw that show as anything other then a kids program, but, like so many other intelligent cartoons, so much of the dialog went way over the heads of children with the meaning of words instead of the superficial simplicity. Pun's and inside jokes were plentiful. I was exposed to it in marathon style when I was taking care of my smallest Granddaughter. She loved it and I grew to love it as well.

I don't disagree with what you said about the show itself but Disney just milked the IP so much in such a short span of time to the point of degrading the staying power of the show and, as such, I don't think making a ride based on it would have been a good idea in the long run. Speaking of the Imagination pavilion, Honey, I Shrunk the Kids wasn't a bad film but they milked the franchise to the point where they effectively killed any interest in it.

At the very least it should be the 3D show in the theater. Lends itself to that very easily.

Unless Disney is willing to put some money towards upgrading the Magic Eye Theater I don't see the point of creating a new show for the venue. 3D theatres are everywhere these days and unless they've got some sort of impressive physical component to enhance the experience they're devoid of any novelty factor they might have had in the past.

 

[marni1971]

Could you elaborate on what made the original JII so expensive to maintain? I'm aware that the 'turntable' was jam packed with effects (I still can't figure out how they managed to connect all the electrical and hydraulic lines to all five 'theatres' without making an absolute mess of it) but the rest of the ride seemed rather conservative in the effects department. If I'm not mistaken, the ride mostly relied on relatively simple mechanical and projection/light based effects and was pretty light on AAs when compared to attractions like Horizons or SSE..

JII was an effects superstore. 178 visual effects if I recall or something like that. Even the lightbulb list alone was huge! I was surprised to find that each individual image behind the Dreamship was sourced from an individual projector. It wasn't just one projector per screen. For example. Times by five, and there were dozens of heat producing projectors that weren't lasting long in what maintainence nicknamed the oven. Lots of mechanical effects that needed constant maintainence. AA wise it was lighter than the other Omnis (26 if I recall) but still non too shabby. 15 film projectors, a video projector (ooooo) with a CM constantly sat manning it. The temperamental ride system that in the early days still neeed constant physical tweaking of the motors. Imageworks effects that needed constant maintainence to keep them working. Running the pavilion wasn't necessarily any costlier than any other pavilion but it wasn't cheap. And as Kodak began looking to save costs the total figure was one they decided they could no longer sustain.

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

JII was an effects superstore. 178 visual effects if I recall or something like that. Even the lightbulb list alone was huge! I was surprised to find that each individual image behind the Dreamship was sourced from an individual projector. It wasn't just one projector per screen. For example. Times by five, and there were dozens of heat producing projectors that weren't lasting long in what maintainence nicknamed the oven. Lots of mechanical effects that needed constant maintainence. AA wise it was lighter than the other Omnis (26 if I recall) but still non too shabby. 15 film projectors, a video projector (ooooo) with a CM constantly sat manning it. The temperamental ride system that in the early days still neeed constant physical tweaking of the motors. Imageworks effects that needed constant maintainence to keep them working. Running the pavilion wasn't necessarily any costlier than any other pavilion but it wasn't cheap. And as Kodak began looking to save costs the total figure was one they decided they could no longer sustain.

Definitely easy to see what made this ride so ambitious and troublesome back in the early 80s. The advancements in computer tech by the mid 90s would probably have alleviated the ride system problems had they only given it a proper refurb instead of trashing the original ride.

Fast forward to today, most of the remaining costly effects you listed could have easily been replaced by better looking ones that actually cost far less to run and maintain. LED lighting tech has exploded in the past 5 years, prices have plummeted and the tech has advanced to the point where they can even mimic antique incandescent bulbs to an astonishingly effective degree (not to mention the crazy light choreography they can be programmed to do).

Digital projection tech has also gotten very advanced, and the light sources have also improved in efficiency and life expectancy. Disney has pulled off some super impressive digital mapping techniques in recent rides, so it's easy to see how they could have plussed the original JII with similar effects.

 

[Time_machine]

JII was an effects superstore. 178 visual effects if I recall or something like that. Even the lightbulb list alone was huge! I was surprised to find that each individual image behind the Dreamship was sourced from an individual projector. It wasn't just one projector per screen. For example. Times by five, and there were dozens of heat producing projectors that weren't lasting long in what maintainence nicknamed the oven. Lots of mechanical effects that needed constant maintainence. AA wise it was lighter than the other Omnis (26 if I recall) but still non too shabby. 15 film projectors, a video projector (ooooo) with a CM constantly sat manning it. The temperamental ride system that in the early days still neeed constant physical tweaking of the motors. Imageworks effects that needed constant maintainence to keep them working. Running the pavilion wasn't necessarily any costlier than any other pavilion but it wasn't cheap. And as Kodak began looking to save costs the total figure was one they decided they could no longer sustain.

That's amazing! Thanks for the insight Martin!

On a related note, have you ever gotten a chance to see what's left of the turntable mechanism?

 

[marni1971]

That's amazing! Thanks for the insight Martin!

On a related note, have you ever gotten a chance to see what's left of the turntable mechanism?

Thank you.

Yes I have. A lot of the mechanics are still down there, including the main circular base and drive motors. It will never spin again though; it's been pretty much destroyed. New control systems and boxes have been screwed onto it, pipes and conduit run all over - and through - it.

 

[Figments Friend]

It was a marvelous Attraction.
Too bad inter-Company politics and Burbank's insistence on cutting costs related to Parks & Resorts at that time had to destroy such a wonderful thing.
I will never forgive those involved in bringing it down.
Shame on you, you shortsighted *#+^!*&!#@!****s!!


A true inspiration of a ride experience.
A marvel in concept and design that still resonates today.
It will always live in the memories of those who's lives it touched.


-

 

[Figments Friend]

No Kodak has been sponsoring the Pavilion since the beginning. They lost sponsorship sometime in 2011 or 2013.

Paging @Figments Friend and @Tahu for a better explanation.

Many people blame Kodak for 'what happened', but they really should not be the ones getting the heaps of fan hate they have been getting over the years.


The sponsorship relationship between Kodak and Disney changed around the time of the Original 'Journey Into Imagination' s removal.
It went from a democracy to a dictatorship, to put it in simple terms.
Originally, Disney treated it's sponsors as real team mates and didn't just take their money to build Attractions or Shows.
That attitude came much later.

Back when EPCOT Center was being developed, sponsors had a real say in what the final result was for their particular Show or Pavilion.
If they didn't like the direction something they were partially financing was going in, they had real power to stop it or offer their own suggestions.
Disney listened to these, and both parties worked together.
The attitude then was : " Give us your sponsorship money, and together we will create something amazing that will satisfy both of our needs."
That is a key difference...the fact that both parties worked TOGETHER on a project in a real mutually beneficial creative partnership.
That changed dramatically by the late 90s.

Disney revised the contracts, and basically took away all of the sponsors power.
The attitude now was : " Give us your sponsorship money, and we will come up with something. It you don't like it, tough. You no longer have any say in the matter."
Now the 'partnership' was non-exsistant ....Disney did whatever they darn well felt was appropriate with the sponsors money and nobody outside of them could have a say in what direction it should go in.


Some would argue that Disney at the time did this to have better control over projects in the budget department ( cutting out sponsor imput removes the issue of them insisting on better quality / higher costs ).
Others might figure they were just trying to streamline the production line, as letting sponsors have a active role in the creation process 'slowed things down'.
Whatever the reasoning, the fact remains -
Disney changed it's relationship with sponsor Kodak and basically cut them out of the picture..no pun intended.


Kodak had absolutely NO imput into Vs. 2 or the current Vs. 3.
They absolutely HATED the 2nd version.
And it's no wonder since it was originally supposed to be so much more then what was eventually built.
A incredible disappointment no matter which angle you look at it from.

They originally had been led to believe that the 'replacement' for the Original Attraction was going to be a spectacular showcase featuring cutting edge image technology.
The pitch made by WDI at the time was said to have been incredible, and made the 'replacement' seem to be a mind blowing high tech 'improvement' over the Original.
Yes, Kodak wanted a new Show...but they were happy that 'Journey' was the most popular and most highly attended Attraction in all of EPCOT Center next to Spaceship Earth.
They wanted to continue to have a top draw Attraction, and the concept for Vs. 2 sounded exciting at the time.
Sadly, that concept was never brought to it's full potential with budget cuts and inter-Company politics running rampant.

In the end, Kodak was horrified at what they got as a 'replacement' to the Original.
Then CEO Michael Eisner was horrified. Fans were horrified.

I am still aghast when i think back to how truly awful it was riding Vs. 2 and realizing the Original was completely GONE.
That was a truly horrible experience, but i cannot fully blame Kodak for what happened now that i know what was going on behind the scenes.
They were simply not allowed to participate in the process of creating the 'replacement' Attraction(s) and had their hands tied.
Disney being in it's terrible 1990s 'lean budget' era at that time did not help matters, either....and the cheap n' quick mentality hurt the Pavilion and Park overall.
It is still hurting to this day, most would agree.

Gah....such a tragedy it all was...and STILL is.




-

 

[brb1006]

I love how animated Figment was during the original finale as sen in this video from 1983.

 

[Polydweller]

Figments Friend I am not going to quote your whole post but just comment that your chronology is way off. The original Journey closed in 1999 and it's much despised replacement closed in 2001. Version 3 opened in 2002. Now Kodak's sponsorship lasted until fall 2010 not around 1999 which your narrative would suggest. So they were a sponsor throughout all versions and most definitely had input. Sponsors have a large say in what they pay for.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Figments Friend I am not going to quote your whole post but just comment that your chronology is way off. The original Journey closed in 1999 and it's much despised replacement closed in 2001. Version 3 opened in 2002. Now Kodak's sponsorship lasted until fall 2010 not around 1999 which your narrative would suggest. So they were a sponsor throughout all versions and most definitely had input. Sponsors have a large say in what they pay for.

I believe Figments Friend did not say that their sponsorship ended in 1999. Instead it was said that their ability to influence what they were sponsoring ended because of a new agreement. I don't really know what happened. I had heard for years that Kodak had it written into their original contract with WDW that they could request that an attraction be changed. That is where they originally got the blame for V2 and that Eisner hated V2 so V3 was done to everyone's at least partial acceptance.

I don't know how was the culprit here, but, it certainly would seem that if Kodak was contributing a hefty chunk of money to support it, they would have some say. It would be pretty stupid of them to agree to blindly throw money at it without some degree of control.

 

[marni1971]

Figments Friend I am not going to quote your whole post but just comment that your chronology is way off. The original Journey closed in 1999 .

Nope. October 1998.

 

[NelsonRD]

As a kid from the 80's with vivid memories of the original, I always like to ask, without referring to the original, what is so terrible about the current version? My girls enjoy it, understand the message, and particularly enjoy the upside down rooms. I have to admit, I found the original literature scene terrifying as a child. With so much other dysfunction at Epcot, why is the current version such a disappointment?

 

[The Empress Lilly]

In the end, Kodak was horrified at what they got as a 'replacement' to the Original.
Then CEO Michael Eisner was horrified. Fans were horrified.

Of the entire EPCOTalypse, the destruction of Imagination must rank as the most frustrating act. An attraction replaced by the dumb, inferior version of itself. An act of idiocy. Nobody, nobody was satisfied with it. Mediocre management in a tango with mediocre designers - both thinking themselves of the same or even better level as the Gods before them - destroying one of the all-time great rides for...for...yes for what really? Maybe not even for anything, but out of something, out of plain daftness, petty politics and penny-pinching (That's a lot of p's, to signify their p-ing all over EPCOT)


The one redeeming factor is that the pavilion was unified again. Its thematic cohesion (always at the tip of the tongue of us EPCOT foamers!) had been compromised since EO, and was to a large extend restored, was perhaps even stronger than in 83.

On the downside, the Imagination Institute in turn communicated less with the rest of EPCOT than Imagination 83 did. Although here too there is a redeeming factor in that Imagination no longer communicated with classic EPCOT, but with Epcotlate90searly2000s - a park that had come to understand that the theme park itself was and had not been an experimental test ground but an exhibition, and which sought to remedy and update this with simulated experimental test grounds - simulated experimental imagination labs, simulated car labs, simulated space labs.

 

[marni1971]

As a kid from the 80's with vivid memories of the original, I always like to ask, without referring to the original, what is so terrible about the current version? My girls enjoy it, understand the message, and particularly enjoy the upside down rooms. I have to admit, I found the original literature scene terrifying as a child. With so much other dysfunction at Epcot, why is the current version such a disappointment?

Short, dumbed down, some find new Figment obnoxious, lack of visuals, scale, drama, awe, passion, story, tech, charm, wow factor...

 

[The Empress Lilly]

As a kid from the 80's with vivid memories of the original, I always like to ask, without referring to the original, what is so terrible about the current version? My girls enjoy it, understand the message, and particularly enjoy the upside down rooms. I have to admit, I found the original literature scene terrifying as a child. With so much other dysfunction at Epcot, why is the current version such a disappointment?

As a stand-alone ride, the current Imagination ride isn't bad. It has its moments.

But if you know what came before, it just invokes anger and frustration. That, and secondly, the rest of the pavilion. The upstairs is now an airport lounge, the Imageworks a joke. Underneath you everywhere you walk used to be track of the longer ride while above you used to be the awesome Imageworks.

There were great murals there, sculptures, fountains that have simply been stripped and removed one by one over the years.

Imagine Pirates being stripped to just an encounter with a skeleton pirate, followed by a drop, and then Johnny Depp's 'wives I've beaten' trophy room. Everything in between gone. Outside is just an open air vending booth giftshop, Caribbean Plaza having been razed for pavement. Still a fun two minute ride with little drop and everything, you meet a pirate too, the kids are sure to like it.

 

[NelsonRD]

As a stand-alone ride, the current Imagination ride isn't bad. It has its moments.

But if you know what came before, it just invokes anger and frustration. That, and secondly, the rest of the pavilion. The upstairs is now an airport lounge, the Imageworks a joke. Underneath you everywhere you walk used to be track of the longer ride while above you used to be the awesome Imageworks.

There were great murals there, sculptures, fountains that have simply been stripped and removed one by one over the years.

Imagine Pirates being stripped to just an encounter with a skeleton pirate, followed by a drop, and then Johnny Depp's 'wives I've beaten' trophy room. Everything in between gone. Outside is just an open air vending booth giftshop, Caribbean Plaza having been razed for pavement. Still a fun two minute ride with little drop and everything, you meet a pirate too, the kids are sure to like it.

I agree the biggest loss is the Image Works. However, my girls do not know the original, so I do not spoil the attraction for them. Overall, looking at what it is, not what it was, or could be, I do not find it that bad for the the current state of Future World.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

I agree the biggest loss is the Image Works. However, my girls do not know the original, so I do not spoil the attraction for them. Overall, looking at what it is, not what it was, or could be, I do not find it that bad for the the current state of Future World.

Eh, that's pretty much how I try to maintain my sanity in EPCOT too. I just ride TT, Imagination, then watch some fish and dinosaurs. I tune out of what was there once and try to enjoy the current offerings, who rank from average to decent.

 

[danyoung56]

...what is so terrible about the current version?

What angers me is the waste that make up several scenes. For example, during the scene with the eye chart, the big "reveal", the big effect of the scene, is simply a video of Figment bouncing around. Really? That's the best that the Imagineers could come up with? I always get off of that ride angry - angry about the missed opportunities that Imagineering had to impress.

 

[brb1006]

Figments Friend I am not going to quote your whole post but just comment that your chronology is way off. The original Journey closed in 1999 and it's much despised replacement closed in 2001. Version 3 opened in 2002. Now Kodak's sponsorship lasted until fall 2010 not around 1999 which your narrative would suggest. So they were a sponsor throughout all versions and most definitely had input. Sponsors have a large say in what they pay for.

The original closed in 1998, the second version came in 1999