Screamscape - Monorail Expansion Rumor

[flynnibus]

Nobody is disputing initial cost...yes a bus system is cheaper to implement. But not cheaper to maintain. Most municipalities don't have billions to spend on a monorail, nor can they wait for a break even of 10-15 years when compared to buses. So Buses would be the only option not necessarily the most preferable.

Keep telling yourself that dream - reality is otherwise. And BTW.. municipalities fund with Bonds over decades. The reason they chose these types of systems is they are cheaper to OPERATE - which they don't fund with bonds, but with revenue. Which is the complete opposite of what you believe it to be.

Don't be fooled by 'frequent smaller costs being more expensive than bigger less frequent costs'. That doesn't always hold true. What we have going for us is the thousands of studies done in real world scenarios by municipalities around the world showing the operational effectiveness and cost effectiveness of buses for short haul, high flex scenarios. No one is putting in monorails... it's not some anti-Monorail conspiracy... or greedy execs worrying about next month's budget. It's harsh reality across the globe - private and public organizations.

 

[Knothead]

RCID has the power to issue Bonds right?

 

[s8film40]

What routes does it reduce except the route the train specifically runs between the parks?

Unless you treat the parks as hubs to a tiered transportation model - which is what I said in the earlier post which is people don't like transferring.. do you really think they will appreciate the monorails better if going from their resort meant going from your resort, to your closest park via bus, and then via monorail to where you really wanted to go? Or get a direct route bus today that would get them there faster and with less transfers? How often do we hear the complaints about having to goto a resort first, or TTC, etc to get to where people want? Transfers are looked down upon by the customers.

I see people all the time who elect to go out of their way and often choose routes requiring transfers just to avoid having to use buses.

But driver labor is such a small portion of the costs when talking about upkeep and overall system size. Bus drivers are cheap and interchangable - it's a commodity profession. Auto mechanics can be taken from outside trained industry as well.

Compared to things like.. needing power technicians, electricians, mechanics, structural engineers, tons more safety equipment, etc etc.

The maintenance on monorails is far less than buses, especially when calculated per passenger.

And yes a train carries more people than a bus - but you can add/subtract buses almost instantly without disrupting the other buses. If a bus breaks down, it doesn't stop all other buses.

While buses are not the most elegant transportation system, they are by far the most flexible, cheapest to operate, and in a scenario like WDW, probably the fastest alternative.

Rail is good for concentrated routes - Disney doesn't have concentrated routes - it has a need for a full mesh of paths.

With a modern monorail system trains can be added and removed far more quickly than buses could be, again most peoples knowledge of monorail operation is about 30 years old. Monorail technology has come along way since WDW last updated their system.

 

[DisneyWall-E]

They cant connect DTD to the parks with monorails unless they charge to park there. Utherwise people will abuse the free parking a whole lot more.

 

[puntagordabob]

Folks, what's actually coming is only a series of bus-only roads that interconnect with each other, Downtown Disney, resorts and the theme parks. There will be overpasses over existing roads.

Once picking up passengers via already-existing public roads and existing bus stops, the buses will get to their destinations mainly via these bus-only roads, bypassing other traffic and bypassing traffic lights. New roads cut through existing forests will decrease the distances between points.

Buses will remain the bulk of the WDW transportation system.

Oh swell lets cut paths through areas that could be used someday for something else..

They cant connect DTD to the parks with monorails unless they charge to park there. Utherwise people will abuse the free parking a whole lot more.

Oh yes they can if you have the RFID system working correctly it could be just like a subway setup where it knows if you are allowed to pass the checkpoint into the station... AP holder, welcome aboard....resort guest, welcome aboard.... RFID parking pass, welcome aboard. You get the idea.


How about another idea... a new parking lot at a new TTC2 that serves EVERY park and hence removing the parking lots directly adjacent to the actual parks. How would that be for some easy mega expansion pads for the parks?

 

[Mouse Detective]

Unfortunately, the TTC is no longer centrally located on WDW property. At the time, that area was the only built up area. Having another TTC type area would help tie in other areas of the property if more monorail lines were to be built.

My guess that will be the greatly expanded (per Raven) Downtown Disney.

They cant connect DTD to the parks with monorails unless they charge to park there. Otherwise people will abuse the free parking a whole lot more.

Yes, that's correct. It's coming.

 

[scout68]

Here are couple of questions -- (ticket and tracking logistics aside)

Would you be willing to pay extra for a "monorail hopper pass" ?

How much would you be willing to pay?

 

[JungleTrekFan]

Oh yes they can if you have the RFID system working correctly it could be just like a subway setup where it knows if you are allowed to pass the checkpoint into the station... AP holder, welcome aboard....resort guest, welcome aboard.... RFID parking pass, welcome aboard. You get the idea.

I really am surprised TDO has not emplaced something that requires you to swipe your room key or park ticket to board the monorails.

In essence if the monorails were ever expanded and to DTD i would expect them to put in place such a thing similar to how Tokyo disneyland’s monorail, you would need a pass to get on.

But for the immediate future i do believe BRT (bus rapid transit) is the way to go, with a look at PRT and monorail expansion in the future. which would hopefully reduce the need for busses except for during peak periods.

It would be interesting to see if local transportation projects will effect TDO view and use on certain transportation.

Another factor, though many overlook it, is the commuting of cast members. WDW is the largest single site employer in the south east and many cast members use the, very slow and inefficient, LYNX Bus system. And unlike guests, cast members are at WDW daily. It would be interesting if any future transportation changes would effect cast for the better.

All speculation, but i have to say i love the reoccurring monorail threads/rumors. I think it is the only thread that doesn’t get derailed.

 

[katarn112]

Here are couple of questions -- (ticket and tracking logistics aside)

Would you be willing to pay extra for a "monorail hopper pass" ?

How much would you be willing to pay?

Zero, I'll just take the buses in that case. It's not that I couldn't afford it, it's just out of principal. We're paying way too much for the deluxe resorts as it is, they can at least let us use the monorail.

If Disney was upfront about it, though, and said, "Hey, you know what, this monorail is REALLY expensive, so to pay for the thing, we're going to charge 10 dollars for a "monorail hopper pass" for the first 3 years of its operation". Then I would pay. Of course, this probably wouldn't work, because the suits at Disney would "forget" to take the charge off of it 3 years later.

 

[Gregoryp73]

Keep telling yourself that dream - reality is otherwise. And BTW.. municipalities fund with Bonds over decades. The reason they chose these types of systems is they are cheaper to OPERATE - which they don't fund with bonds, but with revenue. Which is the complete opposite of what you believe it to be.

Don't be fooled by 'frequent smaller costs being more expensive than bigger less frequent costs'. That doesn't always hold true. What we have going for us is the thousands of studies done in real world scenarios by municipalities around the world showing the operational effectiveness and cost effectiveness of buses for short haul, high flex scenarios. No one is putting in monorails... it's not some anti-Monorail conspiracy... or greedy execs worrying about next month's budget. It's harsh reality across the globe - private and public organizations.

Here's no one putting in monorails:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monorail_systems

I never said that there was an anti-monorail conspiracy...monorails are quite popular with municipalities that can afford to build them, and with riders that have access to them. Yearly, there are more people that ride the disney monorail (even with it's limited access) then do the all of the other transit methods combined...

Also, the top two costs of operation are Labor and Energy

You cannot tell me that there are higher labor costs operating the monorail system at Disney...And every mass transit comparison out there shows that any kind of rail (diesel included) uses half the amount of energy that buses do...The only thing worse than buses is individual cars.

I really think disney has a winning combination, because they are using a balanced approach. They have rail, bus, boat for moving people around the park. My hope is they continue to balance that approach and offer their guests a choice.

 

[Gregoryp73]

I really am surprised TDO has not emplaced something that requires you to swipe your room key or park ticket to board the monorails.

Last time I was at the park you needed to flash your room key to a CM to get on the monorail that went to the hotels.

 

[s8film40]

For those interested, the Disney monorail technology is still going strong. Since Bomabardier acquired the WDW monorail technology in the early 90's when building the Mark VI trains they have gone on to create several generations of fully automated advanced modern monorail systems. The newest instillation in Brazil is the most ambitious and will be the largest monorail system to date, it will be 24 KM comprised of 17 stations and 54 seven car trains.

The technology works, it's efficient and most importantly provides a greater level of service to the passengers it serves. It can be argued that WDW doesn't need an expanded system or that it isn't efficient or that it would cost too much. The truth however is that it's being done in other places and it works and works well. Unfortunately WDW isn't the cutting edge place it used to be and at this point is just worried about getting by not innovating and providing first class service.

 

[Polydweller]

Zero, I'll just take the buses in that case. It's not that I couldn't afford it, it's just out of principal. We're paying way too much for the deluxe resorts as it is, they can at least let us use the monorail.

If Disney was upfront about it, though, and said, "Hey, you know what, this monorail is REALLY expensive, so to pay for the thing, we're going to charge 10 dollars for a "monorail hopper pass" for the first 3 years of its operation". Then I would pay. Of course, this probably wouldn't work, because the suits at Disney would "forget" to take the charge off of it 3 years later.

Don't be so sure. They used to charge for the monorail through the early 1980's. To use it you had to purchase a separate WD Transportation company ticket. They did pay for it and it's operation this way, and they obviously did remember to take it off after it ran its course. It hasn't been that way for around 30 years so not many remember that.

 

[s8film40]

Don't be so sure. They used to charge for the monorail through the early 1980's. To use it you had to purchase a separate WD Transportation company ticket. They did pay for it and it's operation this way, and they obviously did remember to take it off after it ran its course. It hasn't been that way for around 30 years so not many remember that.

They never "took it off" they built it into room rates, ticket prices and parking fees.

 

[RunnerEd]

If the monorail isn't expanded, I think it would be cool to have each resort area (Epcot/DHS, AK, DTD) have it's own closed loop transportation system to its resorts themed appropriately. Steam train for AK, trolley/street car for Epcot/DHS, people mover for the DTD resorts. These could all potentially tie in to a central hub for switching to other lines.

 

[Tip Top Club]

From what I've heard current transportation management is not behind any sort of expansion for the monorail.

 

[flynnibus]

Here's no one putting in monorails:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monorail_systems

Try reading that list and find that more then 3/4s of those are not actual public transit systems, but airports, amusement parks, zoos, and other recreational sites. There are almost more Disney Parks then there are transit monorail systems in the Western world.

I never said that there was an anti-monorail conspiracy...monorails are quite popular with municipalities that can afford to build them, and with riders that have access to them

I wouldn't call a global count of less then 30 'quite popular'.

You cannot tell me that there are higher labor costs operating the monorail system at Disney...And every mass transit comparison out there shows that any kind of rail (diesel included) uses half the amount of energy that buses do...The only thing worse than buses is individual cars.

I never said buses were the most energy efficient - but that's not what makes or breaks a SYSTEM. Heavy Rail is by far the most energy efficient - but it doesn't work as a short-haul system, so it's pretty pointless to look at here, and its pointless to look at energy efficiency alone - one must look at the application and see what fits the need the best. And when talking labor, you keep thinking 'drivers' - it takes more than drivers to keep the whole system operational.

 

[disneyrcks]

Last time I was at the park you needed to flash your room key to a CM to get on the monorail that went to the hotels.

When was that? We just returned from a stay at the Wilderness Lodge and had no problem riding the monorail to the resorts. No one ever asked us for a room key. Are you being sarcastic and I missed it?

 

[NoChesterHester]

Try reading that list and find that more then 3/4s of those are not actual public transit systems, but airports, amusement parks, zoos, and other recreational sites. There are almost more Disney Parks then there are transit monorail systems in the Western world.



I wouldn't call a global count of less then 30 'quite popular'.



I never said buses were the most energy efficient - but that's not what makes or breaks a SYSTEM. Heavy Rail is by far the most energy efficient - but it doesn't work as a short-haul system, so it's pretty pointless to look at here, and its pointless to look at energy efficiency alone - one must look at the application and see what fits the need the best. And when talking labor, you keep thinking 'drivers' - it takes more than drivers to keep the whole system operational.

Logic has no place in the 440th monorail expansion thread!

Head meets wall.

 

[Chuckles]

If the monorail isn't expanded, I think it would be cool to have each resort area (Epcot/DHS, AK, DTD) have it's own closed loop transportation system to its resorts themed appropriately. Steam train for AK, trolley/street car for Epcot/DHS, people mover for the DTD resorts. These could all potentially tie in to a central hub for switching to other lines.

combine the express rail and epcot rail, then expand to include HS and AK, using each park as a hub, combine this with your idea of unique transportation servicing each park's hotels. This would eliminate the trans and ticket center as a monorail destinaton, allowing guest to quickly park hop, increasing park hopper sales.