Screamscape - Monorail Expansion Rumor

[herc]

Now if you said they were going to completely redo the ferryboat docks at MK and TTC to allow us to load one boat while unloading another, and add a 4th ferry, THAT would be an idea I could go along with and one I think would make more sense than expanding monorail service to the other parks.

Seriously, who takes the ferryboats other than guests with their own transportation?
The whole premise at WDW was that the Magic Kingdom was a destination. Everyone was routed through the Transporation and Ticket Center. Then you had to get on a monorail or ferryboat. It was the anticipation...
Now TDO built bus transportation directly to the MK, literally dropping you off at the gate.

Where they really need to step up more transportation are the little boats servicing the MK resorts, WL and FW. You can wait forever. Don't believe me, then try the BBQ at FW one time and see how long it takes for you to get on a boat out of there.

One other way to relieve some of the traffic is to bring back the tram system. Epcot used to have a tram system from the Boardwalk and Yacht/Beach Club areas. A tram could also run all the way to DHS from that area. Anything to avoid the longest trip ever on those Friendship boats. It can take over an hour to get from DHS to EPCOT. Couldn't you just hear it now, "Watch the tram car please". Guess you gotta be from New Jersey to appreciate that one.

Adding a "train service" from FW and the possibly new River Country area DVC to WL would be nice, but if it could extend out to the TTC, that would be huge.

Just my two cents, but adding on to the monorail is key to the future of transporation at WDW. It does not have to hook everything up to one system, but having the ability to add future lines would alleviate road traffic.

I also feel that a Peoplemover type system should be installed. Hooking DAK with AKL/VAKL as well as Coronado Springs would be huge. A cutthrough the savannah is an added bonus (ok it can be to the sides of the savannah).

Unfortunately, the TTC is no longer centrally located on WDW property. At the time, that area was the only built up area. Having another TTC type area would help tie in other areas of the property if more monorail lines were to be built.

 

[flynnibus]

If you move guests from park to park. you can then create smaller hubs at those parks for transportation to nearby resorts and eliminate much of the duplicated transportation that exists at WDW. A park to Park monorail could be part of system that would create a huge reduction of Buses

What routes does it reduce except the route the train specifically runs between the parks?

Unless you treat the parks as hubs to a tiered transportation model - which is what I said in the earlier post which is people don't like transferring.. do you really think they will appreciate the monorails better if going from their resort meant going from your resort, to your closest park via bus, and then via monorail to where you really wanted to go? Or get a direct route bus today that would get them there faster and with less transfers? How often do we hear the complaints about having to goto a resort first, or TTC, etc to get to where people want? Transfers are looked down upon by the customers.

Also buses don't just cost more when it comes to fuel but also labor, it takes five buss drivers to equal the capacity of a monorail. The new articulated buses show that Disney wants to reduce their labor costs in buses.

But driver labor is such a small portion of the costs when talking about upkeep and overall system size. Bus drivers are cheap and interchangable - it's a commodity profession. Auto mechanics can be taken from outside trained industry as well.

Compared to things like.. needing power technicians, electricians, mechanics, structural engineers, tons more safety equipment, etc etc.

And yes a train carries more people than a bus - but you can add/subtract buses almost instantly without disrupting the other buses. If a bus breaks down, it doesn't stop all other buses.

While buses are not the most elegant transportation system, they are by far the most flexible, cheapest to operate, and in a scenario like WDW, probably the fastest alternative.

Rail is good for concentrated routes - Disney doesn't have concentrated routes - it has a need for a full mesh of paths.

 

[wdw71fan]

think more hubs, and fewer buses

 

[flynnibus]

Was there more than one park when the original monorail was built?

Park Hopper wasn't a working model then either.

When they built EPCOT - they built a line between it and the resort loop. And when EPCOT was built, you still only had the original lagoon resorts. So everyone (but FW and Golf Resort) could hop the monorail and goto MK or EPCOT.

It wasn't until they started building sizable hotels away from the Seven Seas/Bay Lake area that it started to become a problem.. and then when they built the 3rd gate that could ONLY be reached via bus.. that it really came to a head and it drew attention to the topic.

The monorails were to get people from hotels to parks.. and that's far more the important task than park hopping is.

 

[Gregoryp73]

What routes does it reduce except the route the train specifically runs between the parks?

Unless you treat the parks as hubs to a tiered transportation model - which is what I said in the earlier post which is people don't like transferring.. do you really think they will appreciate the monorails better if going from their resort meant going from your resort, to your closest park via bus, and then via monorail to where you really wanted to go? Or get a direct route bus today that would get them there faster and with less transfers? How often do we hear the complaints about having to goto a resort first, or TTC, etc to get to where people want? Transfers are looked down upon by the customers.



But driver labor is such a small portion of the costs when talking about upkeep and overall system size. Bus drivers are cheap and interchangable - it's a commodity profession. Auto mechanics can be taken from outside trained industry as well.

Compared to things like.. needing power technicians, electricians, mechanics, structural engineers, tons more safety equipment, etc etc.

And yes a train carries more people than a bus - but you can add/subtract buses almost instantly without disrupting the other buses. If a bus breaks down, it doesn't stop all other buses.

While buses are not the most elegant transportation system, they are by far the most flexible, cheapest to operate, and in a scenario like WDW, probably the fastest alternative.

Rail is good for concentrated routes - Disney doesn't have concentrated routes - it has a need for a full mesh of paths.

The only things that buses have on monorail is flexibility and initial cost...which really is the reason why we don't have more monorails.

There is no possible way that buses are cheaper to operate...After crunching the numbers the Disney bus system would be sitting at about .50 cents per passenger mile, while monorails in general are anywhere from .08-.16 cents per passenger mile...but this is just operation.

Let's keep in mind the amount of wear and tear on roads that buses create and the insurance costs...1500 drivers on an insurance policy for an outfit that have had multiple incidents can't be cheap.

there are 91,000,000 transit rides given each year to WDW patrons...50,000,000 of them are on monorail.

The initial cost is what kills monorails...it would most likely take up to 10-15 years to recoup any savings incurred by the system...taking into consideration rising fuel costs and labor costs.



Personally I think that we'll be seeing all mass transit go "google" in the next decade, which will limit costs dramatically. A hybrid self driving bus and monorail system, would probably shave 60-75 million in operating costs per year.

 

[flynnibus]

think more hubs, and fewer buses

Hubs don't necessarily reduce buses - they reduce direct paths, create shorter paths, and increase the efficiency of ridership on some paths.

And what do people complain about today?
Waiting for buses, Crowded buses and transfers

Hubs don't fix any of those complaints - only make them worse in the eye's of the customer.

Customers don't care about higher ridership efficiency.. or efficient routes. They want the most elegant, simplest, fastest, way to get from where they are to where they WANT to go (not where you will take them.. where they WANT to go).

 

[Gregoryp73]

Customers don't care about higher ridership efficiency.. or efficient routes. They want the most elegant, simplest, fastest, way to get from where they are to where they WANT to go (not where you will take them.. where they WANT to go).

Monorail it is!

 

[flynnibus]

The only things that buses have on monorail is flexibility and initial cost...which really is the reason why we don't have more monorails.

No - they are cheaper and that's why you don't see people building them around the world.. and every transportation system uses buses even if they have other means.. and almost every municipality has buses, but few have light rail or higher. 'flexibility' is not something to sweep under the rug. It's flexibility in capacity, in frequency, in vehicles, and in routes.

There is no possible way that buses are cheaper to operate...After crunching the numbers the Disney bus system would be sitting at about .50 cents per passenger mile, while monorails in general are anywhere from .08-.16 cents per passenger mile...but this is just operation.

No way they are cheaper? Yet they are the dominate method around the world. Are you suggesting Disney has for the last almost 30 years intentionally chosen the MORE EXPENSIVE and less sexy route? For what gain would they do that?

Let's keep in mind the amount of wear and tear on roads that buses create and the insurance costs...1500 drivers on an insurance policy for an outfit that have had multiple incidents can't be cheap.

Roads are cheap and easily repaired. They also have redundant paths. They are also a common commodity that can be shopped to any number of construction companies keeping costs competitive. They can also be used for other purposes further reducing specialized spending. They also don't need additional egress paths to supplement them like a rail right of way does.

 

[flynnibus]

Monorail it is!

Monorail will never be a mesh network and will never offer direct any to any paths.

Monorails have shown themselves to be ineffcient in switching and suck at multi-path.

Monorails offer no real benefit over track or rail systems. They were originally intended as light weight systems that wouldn't need the heavy rail bed of trains and could hence be lifted off the ground and no longer segegrate land and create such land barriers.

But now those advantages are not unique to monorail and it's inefficiencies have sunk it compared to other alternatives.

Time to move onto better methods that allow per vehicle switching if someone really wants the future.

 

[Did Knee]

There may be a few other outside factors too that are outside of TDO control but could have an influence.

I'm missing your point Marni. Are you saying that there are factors outside of TDO control that may cause them to expand the monorail, or do these factors detract from that possibility?

 

[asianway]

Did the ideal buildout dude ever tackle a resort wide monorail system?

I'd love to see his take!

 

[flynnibus]

I'm missing your point Marni. Are you saying that there are factors outside of TDO control that may cause them to expand the monorail, or do these factors detract from that possibility?

I believe he is inferring ties to the perpetual discussions in Florida about high speed rail and other transportation options of which Disney's limited participation in could play a significant factor in how Disney eyes transportation...

Disney being a stop or not on such regional transportation plans is a political topic in the area.

 

[Gregoryp73]

No - they are cheaper and that's why you don't see people building them around the world.. and every transportation system uses buses even if they have other means.. and almost every municipality has buses, but few have light rail or higher. 'flexibility' is not something to sweep under the rug. It's flexibility in capacity, in frequency, in vehicles, and in routes.



No way they are cheaper? Yet they are the dominate method around the world. Are you suggesting Disney has for the last almost 30 years intentionally chosen the MORE EXPENSIVE and less sexy route? For what gain would they do that?



Roads are cheap and easily repaired. They also have redundant paths. They are also a common commodity that can be shopped to any number of construction companies keeping costs competitive. They can also be used for other purposes further reducing specialized spending. They also don't need additional egress paths to supplement them like a rail right of way does.

Nobody is disputing initial cost...yes a bus system is cheaper to implement. But not cheaper to maintain. Most municipalities don't have billions to spend on a monorail, nor can they wait for a break even of 10-15 years when compared to buses. So Buses would be the only option not necessarily the most preferable.

Roads cost on avg. 1mil per mile per lane to resurface....triple that for new construction. Not exactly cheap. Granted more people use the roads than just buses so it's a shared cost.

And disney has chosen a route (buses) that are initially cheaper because it doesn't affect the bottom line in the same way a large rail project would. And the bottom line affects stock price. And stock price affects bonuses and stock options.

 

[zulemara]

Seriously, who takes the ferryboats other than guests with their own transportation?
The whole premise at WDW was that the Magic Kingdom was a destination. Everyone was routed through the Transporation and Ticket Center. Then you had to get on a monorail or ferryboat. It was the anticipation...
Now TDO built bus transportation directly to the MK, literally dropping you off at the gate.

Where they really need to step up more transportation are the little boats servicing the MK resorts, WL and FW. You can wait forever. Don't believe me, then try the BBQ at FW one time and see how long it takes for you to get on a boat out of there.

One other way to relieve some of the traffic is to bring back the tram system. Epcot used to have a tram system from the Boardwalk and Yacht/Beach Club areas. A tram could also run all the way to DHS from that area. Anything to avoid the longest trip ever on those Friendship boats. It can take over an hour to get from DHS to EPCOT. Couldn't you just hear it now, "Watch the tram car please". Guess you gotta be from New Jersey to appreciate that one.

Adding a "train service" from FW and the possibly new River Country area DVC to WL would be nice, but if it could extend out to the TTC, that would be huge.

Just my two cents, but adding on to the monorail is key to the future of transporation at WDW. It does not have to hook everything up to one system, but having the ability to add future lines would alleviate road traffic.

I also feel that a Peoplemover type system should be installed. Hooking DAK with AKL/VAKL as well as Coronado Springs would be huge. A cutthrough the savannah is an added bonus (ok it can be to the sides of the savannah).

Unfortunately, the TTC is no longer centrally located on WDW property. At the time, that area was the only built up area. Having another TTC type area would help tie in other areas of the property if more monorail lines were to be built.

who goes to TTC period unless they drove? No one except the people going to/from another park. My point is simply that the worst part of WDW transportation is getting to and leaving MK. There has been an increase in people taking the ferryboat. The days of going down to 1 boat during the day are almost entirely gone. Based on my observation of the guest flow the last 3 years, more people are staying off property. To that end, we move more people at close than the monorails because we can fit so many more in one trip and always have a boat waiting at close. However, we would be much more efficient if we could unload and load at the same time.

There's 2 boats on the FW routes, if the cycle is good, it's 10-12 minutes between boats. Of course, there are ECV transfers, lightshow, and any number of obstacles to throw off the cycle(rails go down, one boat gets pulled to the gold) I have sat on the beach at FW when not working, timing the time between boats. If they cycle is normal, it's not very long. To that end, I can break down each section of the route and tell you how long it takes so I know my numbers are accurate.

 

[Captain Neo]

Monorail expansion should have happened a decade ago. It should connect all the deluxe resorts and the main areas (Hollywood Studios, Downtown Disney, and Animal Kingdom) with the existing monorail system. It would be a far better investment then the frustrating bus system.

 

[c-one]

Does there exist a map of all the different bus routes? That would be very revealing. Far too much of a web for rail to work, at least on a large scale.

Between the parks and Downtown Disney only might work in an ideal world... but that ship has sailed. It would require a new TTC closer to the current property center. Of course, I DO hate the TTC with the passion of 1000 suns. If only.

As Glados said, if they won't spend the money to keep the current monorail running well, what makes you think they'd spend the money to expand it 400%?

 

[UberMouse]

Maybe they should just take the money for this and clone Walt. Once he is back at the reigns all of the problems should be fixed over a glass of scotch.

 

[GrumpyFan]

It's Baaaack!!!

I guess we were due to discuss this topic again. It has been a while since it was last raised. Maybe I've just been around here too long, and gotten my hopes up one time too many, but the conversation sounds exactly like the other umpteen times it has been discussed. Cost per mile, bus vs monorail comparison, fuel prices, etc. Is anybody else tired of it already?

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see it expanded, or a newer form of transportation added that was even more efficient. I just don't have a lot of confidence in it happening due to the overwhelming cost of doing so. That is, unless they figured out that by the time they hit x number of DVCs, they will have a way to fund it. Or, perhaps they found some tax breaks for utilizing a "greener" transportation method.

 

[scottnj1966]

I wonder how much of the $88,000,000.00 was for right of way/land use rights? I have always heard that it is about $1,000,000.00 a mile for monorail development. 88 miles of new monorail track at WDW would be HUGE!!

I was about to say the same thing. Most of that cost was buying up land.
Disney already owns it so that wont be an issue.

 

[Hakunamatata]

Or, perhaps they found some tax breaks for utilizing a "greener" transportation method.

That actually could be more realistic than one might imagine. The Clean Energy Prez did make his way to WDW recently on a campaign stop......