Say.... What if Avatarland got cancelled?

[Brava Centauri]

I personally speculate that the Avatar announcement was Disney freaking out over how they were going to counter Wizarding World. That's why they announced it before they had any concept drawings or actual plans. They probably just wanted to throw it out there and set their stamp on it before anyone else could, since they learned their lesson on passing up on Potter.

Personally, I'm in the camp that I would rather they build nothing than on an expansion at a park that doesn't need it. I understand they want to turn AK into a full day park, but considering how they close the earliest due to the animals, I don't see that happening. I would rather they build a spectacular animal exhibit, and then theme an attraction off of it. Why not do some sort of exhibit that houses fantastical looking real animals, and then do fantasy creature rides? But they won't do that, because Disney doesn't trust itself anymore and wants to rely on franchises.

Fix EPCOT? Nah, build more DVC.

Develop HS more? Eh, let's do Next Gen queues and XPass instead.

Avatar Land would be something I would grudgingly accept should it actually be built, because Disney won't listen to me otherwise.

 

[El Grupo]

My guess is that the future of Avatarland or any other major WDW expansions will be somewhat determined by the success of the CA expansion and continual improvements at DL.

I understand that the parks in CA and FL are quite different animals. However, if the early returns on Cars Land, Buena Vista Street, Carthay Circle Theatre, etc. are strong, I wouldn't be surprised to see the TDA management team quickly making a broad internal pitch on what they could do for WDW if they had control there as well. If the pitch worked, they would have some influence on what happens next.

Having spent a few years in Disney management, it was always fun to watch the power grabs. Strike while the iron is hot.

 

[Captain Chaos]

expansion at a park that doesn't need it.

Animal Kingdom DOES need it though...

wants to rely on franchises.

Blame Iger...

 

[AvengersWDW]

Well, you know what they say about hitting rock bottom... and Disney is almost there. Hopefully, they will bounce back better than ever, after Iger, after firings, after total restructuring and a new P&D strategy. It's becoming more and more obvious that they are fundamentally broken from misguided decisions over the past decade that steered away from the foundation set by Walt and those who worked for him.

In other words... Disney is on Intervention, and they either go to rehab, kick the addiction, and come back rosy, or they go back to the street to live yet another sad day doing everything they've always done.

Wow are you joking? Disney is nowhere near hitting rock bottom...even Six Flags which are nothing special are nowhere near hitting rock bottom. No need to fire anyone, no need to restructure anything.

You have issues...good thing that no one listens to people like you

 

[AvengersWDW]

I personally speculate that the Avatar announcement was Disney freaking out over how they were going to counter Wizarding World. That's why they announced it before they had any concept drawings or actual plans. They probably just wanted to throw it out there and set their stamp on it before anyone else could, since they learned their lesson on passing up on Potter.

Personally, I'm in the camp that I would rather they build nothing than on an expansion at a park that doesn't need it. I understand they want to turn AK into a full day park, but considering how they close the earliest due to the animals, I don't see that happening. I would rather they build a spectacular animal exhibit, and then theme an attraction off of it. Why not do some sort of exhibit that houses fantastical looking real animals, and then do fantasy creature rides? But they won't do that, because Disney doesn't trust itself anymore and wants to rely on franchises.

Fix EPCOT? Nah, build more DVC.

Develop HS more? Eh, let's do Next Gen queues and XPass instead.

Avatar Land would be something I would grudgingly accept should it actually be built, because Disney won't listen to me otherwise.

Wow so many things wrong with your post i dont even know where to start

 

[Dinardo]

If it does fall through I say Disney should take the money and actually make the beast kingdom or whatever it was called. I always am a little sad going to AK and seeing the Dragon on the sign but no dragons are in the park. I think a section dedicated to the fantasy of mystical creatures would be a better place to put your money long term than Avatar. Think about it dragons and such have been around for hundreds of year and still are as popular of a fantasy as ever.

Isn't Avatar a fantasy of mystical creatures? Just sayin'.

 

[joeludwig91]

"We are going to make this! Are you excited?"

They observe reaction, things with Cameron reportedly go to pot and then it doesn't sound like such a good idea. They wanted everyone to be blown away by the announcement, and that's why they did it in the first place. That's the reason they made an announcement without any concept art or even any spoken ideas because they thought the name AVATAR would be strong enough to grab people's attention. It sure did, but in the wrong way. They got a bunch of "Avatar? Disney?" rather than "YES! I WILL GO THERE DAY 1 WITH MONEY"

We are left here blue

(This is my first thread response and I needed to end it with a bad joke)

 

[lazyboy97o]

The general public doesn't want Pixar, or the Muppets, or anything like that. __They want Harry Potter. __They want Star Wars. __They want Avatar. __This is why Wizarding World was so successful, IMO.

I do not think the general public is really as fixated on big brands as people believe. The franchises you list all already have extensive worlds associated with them. They provide a widely known example what people desire.

People who go to Disney are expecting Disney...Disney wants to attract people that normally wouldn't go to Disney.

This is only a problem because Disney is full of people who have far much disdain for themed entertainment. Thus Walt Disney World has been sold and rebranded as a derivative experience, not an original or unique one.__

My hunch on Avatar? Disney is trying to reel it back in after realizing it was an executive hunch that shouldn't have been played.__

The Avatarland thing was the ultimate Black Ops project that came out of nowhere and none of the usual insiders knew anything about. It's been reported it was cooked up last summer on only the highest levels of executive leadership, primarily in Burbank. And they didn't even have any solid ride concepts, and the WDI Blue Sky process hadn't even begun. Then they announced it and the world went... huh?

Now that it's out there, they've probably done some customer research on the idea and the concept, as well as gotten a better grasp on what WDI could do artistically. And the results are less than stellar, especially from the customer research side.__

And now they are having that moment where the executives go "Uh... guys? I think we kinda made a mistake here."__

It wouldn't surprise me one bit to learn they are trying to reel Avatarland back in, or at least dramatically downscale expectations for it as a megabudget Cars Land type addition. Perhaps just do a stage show or something and try and find something better for WDW's version of a Cars Land-style megabudget addition?

I think a good part was just trying to make sure Universal did not get a deal.__

I knew that James Cameron's Ego would be the downfall of the project! Now let's wait and see if it dies entirely.

As much as I was uncomfortable with the project, this being the reason should upset all fans of Disney experiences as it means there is still a serious reservation about committing to fully immersive themed experiences. The company still doubts the validity of the medium.__

Profit is up which is the biggest factor they look at. So they are being successful.

What you repeatedly fail to understand us that there are multiple means of looking at and generating profit. The current business model in use at Walt Disney World is not its original model. And while it may be a bit cliche, but Apple runs very much on a model similar to what was used at Walt Disney World. There are no internal divisions, what counts is that the whole is profitable. That means they can import stone floors from Italy for their stores and other little oddities. They aim for creating a larger whole and the result has been a phenomenal business success. Just because profits are up does not mean the experience of the whole has improved. Far too many of the increases have been fed by killing the je ne sais quoi that made Disney a world respected name.__

 

[yeti]

How about an Avatar scene for the Great Movie Ride? That would be a perfect fit, IMHO.

 

[zooey]

Wow are you joking? Disney is nowhere near hitting rock bottom...even Six Flags which are nothing special are nowhere near hitting rock bottom. No need to fire anyone, no need to restructure anything.

You have issues...good thing that no one listens to people like you

Actually, I WAS joking and you outsmarted me. Kudos, sir!

 

[zooey]

I do not think the general public is really as fixated on big brands as people believe. The franchises you list all already have extensive worlds associated with them. They provide a widely known example what people desire.


This is only a problem because Disney is full of people who have far much disdain for themed entertainment. Thus Walt Disney World has been sold and rebranded as a derivative experience, not an original or unique one.__

_

The problem with Avatar in this regard is that there is no realistic way to actually make that environment believable in a theme park setting. Harry Potter is MADE for a theme park. Everything is doable and recognizable. They can tell their guests to expect to visit the Wizarding World of Harry Potter and that is what the guest gets. They walk into Hogsmeade and see the castle and go in the shops just like they saw in the films. They fulfill that expectation. That is practically impossible with Avatar. There are too many structural and operational realities for a convincing Pandora to be made on the scale TDO was talking about.

I may be wrong, of course, but that translation from screen to reality is a real hurdle, and because this was all an executive driven decision, with little to no creative suggestion involved, they promised something they in the end won't be able to deliver.

 

[AvengersWDW]

I do not think the general public is really as fixated on big brands as people believe. The franchises you list all already have extensive worlds associated with them. They provide a widely known example what people desire.


This is only a problem because Disney is full of people who have far much disdain for themed entertainment. Thus Walt Disney World has been sold and rebranded as a derivative experience, not an original or unique one.__


I think a good part was just trying to make sure Universal did not get a deal.__

As much as I was uncomfortable with the project, this being the reason should upset all fans of Disney experiences as it means there is still a serious reservation about committing to fully immersive themed experiences. The company still doubts the validity of the medium.__


What you repeatedly fail to understand us that there are multiple means of looking at and generating profit. The current business model in use at Walt Disney World is not its original model. And while it may be a bit cliche, but Apple runs very much on a model similar to what was used at Walt Disney World. There are no internal divisions, what counts is that the whole is profitable. That means they can import stone floors from Italy for their stores and other little oddities. They aim for creating a larger whole and the result has been a phenomenal business success. Just because profits are up does not mean the experience of the whole has improved. Far too many of the increases have been fed by killing the je ne sais quoi that made Disney a world respected name.__

You want Disney to run on a system like Apple? Where they overcharge you for a product inferior to what is out there?

In your mind too many of the things that makes Disney....well Disney is gone...that is your OPINION, not fact and not something the majority of the world feels

 

[RSoxNo1]

Hey here's an idea, how about they JUST BUILD BEASTLY FRIGGIN KINGDOMME.

They can build a land called Beastly Kingdom but I think the original concepts behind it are dead. The reason fanboys want Beastly Kingdom is because they feel that they know what it is. There's concept art for it and that intrigues us.

This is something that Ron Schneider said on our show and I really think it holds true. (I'm paraphrasing) "If the majority of fan boys are given their choice of what they want, they're going to ask for more of the same."
What I want is a list of problems given to the Imagineers, the potential land/area to work with and a large budget to fix these problems. In the Animal Kingdom, that budget can be the budget allocated for Avatar but I don't want the suits dictating the creative process. I feel that in many areas, this is what happened to the enhancements to DCA that park has been systematically improved in so many ways.

I personally speculate that the Avatar announcement was Disney freaking out over how they were going to counter Wizarding World. That's why they announced it before they had any concept drawings or actual plans. They probably just wanted to throw it out there and set their stamp on it before anyone else could, since they learned their lesson on passing up on Potter.

Personally, I'm in the camp that I would rather they build nothing than on an expansion at a park that doesn't need it. I understand they want to turn AK into a full day park, but considering how they close the earliest due to the animals, I don't see that happening. I would rather they build a spectacular animal exhibit, and then theme an attraction off of it. Why not do some sort of exhibit that houses fantastical looking real animals, and then do fantasy creature rides? But they won't do that, because Disney doesn't trust itself anymore and wants to rely on franchises.

Fix EPCOT? Nah, build more DVC.

Develop HS more? Eh, let's do Next Gen queues and XPass instead.

Avatar Land would be something I would grudgingly accept should it actually be built, because Disney won't listen to me otherwise.

Animal Kingdom definitely needs an expansion because of the animal issues you outlined. The expansion needs to happen in the front of the park and it cannot rely on live animals.

How about an Avatar scene for the Great Movie Ride? That would be a perfect fit, IMHO.

It would be pretty amusing if that's all that came out of the original announcement. Having said that, I think replacing Alien with Avatar as part of a major refurb to The Great Movie Ride would be a nice improvement.

 

[lazyboy97o]

You want Disney to run on a system like Apple? Where they overcharge you for a product inferior to what is out there?

This right here is why you see nothing wrong with Walt Disney World. You are caught up in measurable specifics and seem unable to look at the bigger picture. What you think of Apple's products is irrelevant. What matters is that they are indisputable proof that measuring the success of the whole and not squeezing out profit from every cog can still work in today's world.

 

[AvengersWDW]

This right here is why you see nothing wrong with Walt Disney World. You are caught up in measurable specifics and seem unable to look at the bigger picture. What you think of Apple's products is irrelevant. What matters is that they are in disputable proof that measuring the success of the whole and not squeezing out profit from every cog can still work in today's world.

Except that the Apple example goes against what you say...they are purely driven upon profit. Thus why they overcharge for their tech, they only care about milking money from the consumers. Their success is squarely on their profit and not their product or the way they run as a company

 

[miles1]

I just wanted to add my 2 cents, for what its worth.

I'm all for adding a large new land with new rides and attractions. But reality is that Disney does need to make a profit to keep its shareholders happy, therefore investment in the parks will have some limit. We've already got a huge expansion in the MK eating funds and DCA eating funds.

Hopefully, someone has noticed that large swaths of the parks are becoming an embarrassment. For example:

Imagination (or lack thereof)
WOL remains closed wasting space and capacity
UOE is a yawn
Jungle Cruise, BTM and Splash need major refurbs
SSE remains unfinished
Backlot Tour is basically a bus ride
GMR hasn't changed in, well, ever. Most people under 30 don't even know what the movies are.
And of course, the Yeti, once the showpiece of WDI's ability, remains in rigor mortise
Plus there's the PI/Hyperion Wharf debacle

Maybe somebody has seen that quality refurbs like HM and Startours can reignite interest in a park and increase attendance without billion-dollar expenditures. Also, the addtion of another land with high tech rides will cause maintenace budgets to get spread even thinner than they already are.

I'd rather see WDW spend on fully finishing refurbs and keeping existing attractions fresh before laying out big bucks for new high tech lands and attractions. Fresh reburbs on existing attractions can keep my interest just as well.

Bring on Avatar, but only after everything else is fixed.

 

[COProgressFan]

Wow are you joking? Disney is nowhere near hitting rock bottom...even Six Flags which are nothing special are nowhere near hitting rock bottom. No need to fire anyone, no need to restructure anything.

No need to fire? No need to restructure? Do you truly believe WDW is operating at its peak performance and putting out the best product for guests? Many would argue (not just on the boards) that WDW is a much lesser quality product than it was even 10 years ago, by many different measures.

Rock bottom is coming very close if the current path continues to be followed.

 

[AvengersWDW]

I just wanted to add my 2 cents, for what its worth.

I'm all for adding a large new land with new rides and attractions. But reality is that Disney does need to make a profit to keep its shareholders happy, therefore investment in the parks will have some limit. We've already got a huge expansion in the MK eating funds and DCA eating funds.

Hopefully, someone has noticed that large swaths of the parks are becoming an embarrassment. For example:

Imagination (or lack thereof)
WOL remains closed wasting space and capacity
UOE is a yawn
Jungle Cruise, BTM and Splash need major refurbs
SSE remains unfinished
Backlot Tour is basically a bus ride
GMR hasn't changed in, well, ever. Most people under 30 don't even know what the movies are.
And of course, the Yeti, once the showpiece of WDI's ability, remains in rigor mortise
Plus there's the PI/Hyperion Wharf debacle

Maybe somebody has seen that quality refurbs like HM and Startours can reignite interest in a park and increase attendance without billion-dollar expenditures. Also, the addtion of another land with high tech rides will cause maintenace budgets to get spread even thinner than they already are.

I'd rather see WDW spend on fully finishing refurbs and keeping existing attractions fresh before laying out big bucks for new high tech lands and attractions. Fresh reburbs on existing attractions can keep my interest just as well.

Bring on Avatar, but only after everything else is fixed.

What do you think Jungle Cruise needs via refurb? BTM is getting a refurb right now.

I agree about GMR, i am not a fan of that ride at all

 

[zooey]

Except that the Disney example goes against what you say...they are purely driven upon profit. Thus why they overcharge for their parks, they only care about milking money from the consumers. [gibberish] or the way they run as a company

Agreed!

 

[AvengersWDW]

No need to fire? No need to restructure? Do you truly believe WDW is operating at its peak performance and putting out the best product for guests? Many would argue (not just on the boards) that WDW is a much lesser quality product than it was even 10 years ago, by many different measures.

Rock bottom is coming very close if the current path continues to be followed.

Peak Performance? No, enough to warrent people being fired? No, it has some issues but nowhere near as much as the DGs think. Guests are extremely happy and still love it. I would bet that the majority disagree that it is worse than 10 years ago...the internet boards say so but reality says something else.

Nowhere near being close to rock bottom. You dont even know what rock bottom is. If the Six Flag parks are not near Rock Bottom then WDW is very safe