Revenge Vacation: Only Actual Data Need Apply

[Chi84]

So long as this happens, is there really a problem?

Not from an Disney economic standpoint.

At least, not a simple problem. I made the argument before that alienating higher spenders with a bottom tier experience could resort in less money intake overall, but based on Disney decisions I must be wrong. They are bringing their C game on without even trying to hide it.

I think alienating their higher spenders with a bottom tier experience is going to ultimately hurt Disney. It may take awhile, but people will stop visiting if they don’t find value in the experience. And from what I understand, guest satisfaction surveys are showing some very unhappy guests.

Worse yet, unhappy customers will discourage others from even trying the experience. I’m a WDW veteran, but I’ve talked 3 would-be first time visitors out of going to WDW until they get this Genie+ fiasco figured out. It’s just not worth it.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Lol…Disney is designed for the “middle tier”…that’s why it always worked until now.

The suggestion it’s “whales” is still as silly as when the DVC hoarders suggested it 10 or so years ago…

Anyone for chicken fingers?

 

[HouCuseChickie]

Acadia was mobbed last summer. We weren't really planning to lounge on the beach there, but we at least wanted to walk down to it and dip our feet in the water. Nope. The parking lot was filled, and the cars were lined up along the side of the road for about a half mile in both directions.

And are other countries/parts of the world seeing similar upticks with their own nature/outdoorsy domestic travel options.
This is only one single data point, but my wife's cousin, who works at a hotel in the Tyrolean Alps, told us that her place is booked pretty solidly for the summer.

I can see how Acadia could easily get slammed with visitors. When you think about the population in the northeastern US and the number of people who may not want to drive all the way to the big western parks (or play around with air into the smaller airports in that region), Acadia seems like a no-brainer choice for park lovers in Boston, NYC, Philly, and DC area. Not to mention, Acadia is more of a bucket list park than the others more easily accessible from the northeast. I'm sure national parks like Cuyahoga Valley, Shenandoah and Congaree are worth a visit, but I'd much rather spend a week in Acadia.

And for what it's worth, if I lived in that part of the world, I'd be heading to the Tyrolean Alps as well

 

[Disstevefan1]

It makes sense to implement park pass reservations if you are dealing with fewer employees than you need and the elimination of FP+, which gave Disney some idea and degree of control over where people would be on any given day. I'm sure there are businesses taking advantage of labor shortages, but there are also many trying to hire and train people to provide better service for their customers.

Disney has made many greedy and baffling moves over the past couple of years, not all of which are attributable to COVID - paid fast pass was coming regardless, but elimination of DME, charging for resort parking, ever-increasing "nickel and diming," and some of the others are short-sighted moves attributable to bad management.

If you go through these threads, you will see people who predicted that trams, fireworks, parades, and all manner of things would never return because WDW is filling the parks without them. (And when they did return, it wasn't fast enough or good enough for reasons that have nothing to do with labor/supply shortages.) But those things are returning. Some people are claiming that Disney doesn't care how badly Genie+ is being received by guests as long as they keep buying. That doesn't seem to be true either. Businesses are neither perfect nor evil; it will be interesting to see where WDW lands in a couple of years. I'm hoping they see the writing on the wall and go back to putting customer satisfaction front and center, but I'm doubtful at this point.

We can only hope, but it seems to me the only thing that would change things in the parks are a drop in ticket sales and a drop in room stays.

Let’s see what happens..

 

[adam.adbe]

I'm flying out to Orlando in a few days. At 10 nights, this will be the single longest WDW trip my family have ever taken. We normally do four nights/three days at POFQ, this trip has five nights at AKL. Travel to Japan, which was our big pending splurge is not an option this year, and for reasons of a COVID cancelled DL trip, we're stuck with a lot of Disney gift cards, so we went big(ish). That's not going to show up as extra an flight - in a normal year we might take a couple of days on top of a vacation, so we're actually still flying less. It's not even more vacation time, just we'd never give the lion's share of that budget to the mouse. From Disney's POV though, we're happily spending the wad this year.

tl;dr: there's just too much noise out there, to try to buttress gut feelings of what people are, or are not, doing, with _hard_ data.

My own hunch is that spend is high this year, but the industry is not seeing so much of that, because much of it is pre-spent dollars, such as air miles, vouchers, gift cards in our case, etc.

[ETA: this will likely be the very last Disney vacation for a very long time]

 

[eliza61nyc]

I found with Marr, there's plenty of moderately priced rental properties. However, almost all of them were fully booked for the time I wanted to visit. I did find something available in my price range, but it was a little further south than I usually prefer.

The boardwalk looked pretty packed on the videos I saw. Did it seem like staffing was an issue anywhere? I know they rely on a lot of seasonal labor from eastern Europe and who knows how much that lifeline may have been disrupted by COVID.

'

O/T, lol sorry guys. Definitely staffing issues. The mini golf place down by 13th street and boardwalk, the one with the gorilla and helicopter is advertising 16-17 bucks a hour salaries and almost every place has a help wanted sign. since we were only there for a day we didn't hit Asbury Ave. also I expected the beach tag patrol to go into effect yesterday but they weren't out

 

[MisterPenguin]

It is certainly reasonable to see that some destinations are bouncing back more than others. But noticing that some of the more popular destinations are fully booked is not the same thing as data regarding the entirety of the travel industry.

E.g., if a seaside resort pre-pandemic would normally fully book up, with an extra 20% locked out because they didn't reserve early enough, but now, that same seaside resort is again fully booking-up, but with only an extra 5% locked out. That's less vacationers, although, to those at that resort, it would seem that everything is back to normal.

I'm not saying that there isn't a rebound that's exceeding pre-pandemic times. Just waiting for congregate data to show that's the case for the whole industry, and not, for example, the most popular theme park in the world.

 

[Jrb1979]

It is certainly reasonable to see that some destinations are bouncing back more than others. But noticing that some of the more popular destinations are fully booked is not the same thing as data regarding the entirety of the travel industry.

E.g., if a seaside resort pre-pandemic would normally fully book up, with an extra 20% locked out because they didn't reserve early enough, but now, that same seaside resort is again fully booking-up, but with only an extra 5% locked out. That's less vacationers, although, to those at that resort, it would seem that everything is back to normal.

I'm not saying that there isn't a rebound that's exceeding pre-pandemic times. Just waiting for congregate data to show that's the case for the whole industry, and not, for example, the most popular theme park in the world.

I don't know about the travel industry as a whole but I do know from reading different amusement park forums that a lot of regional parks are seeing more guests then before Covid.

 

[Married5Times]

unhappy customers will discourage others from even trying the experience. I’m a WDW veteran, but I’ve talked 3 would-be first time visitors out of going to WDW

I can safely say I talked 2 totally unrelated parties out of going due to lousy guest treatment relative to just 5 years ago. One family would have been a "whale" whereas the other would have been a small spending single day guest. I convinced the 'single dayer' to get a piece of Potter.

And I'm currently working on a 3rd to get them to make it happen in Tokyo instead.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

Lol…Disney is designed for the “middle tier”…that’s why it always worked until now.

The suggestion it’s “whales” is still as silly as when the DVC hoarders suggested it 10 or so years ago…

Anyone for chicken fingers?

Designed for the middle tier but the price increases over the last decade almost require upper middle tier to afford it.

The hotel alone for our upcoming trip costs more than my whole trip cost in 2013 (same hotel, tickets, flights, photos, and dining package). At the rate the prices have been going up I’m not sure how much longer the middle will be able to afford it.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Designed for the middle tier but the price increases over the last decade almost require upper middle tier to afford it.

The hotel alone for our upcoming trip costs more than my whole trip cost in 2013 (same hotel, tickets, flights, photos, and dining package). At the rate the prices have been going up I’m not sure how much longer the middle will be able to afford it.

That’s exactly why the trajectory is unsustainable…they’re trying to hope their clientele doesn’t figure it out.

$50,000 for DVC upfront or $100,000 for the “franchise” club 33 locations in wdw doesn’t mesh with lack of staff/services at the hotels, declining food quality and people packed into a park on a Tuesday like a six flags on a Saturday in June…doesn’t wash.

They want Eisner to be charge to care how that reflects on him…but they just got a dude named “Bob”

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Reading this thread reminds of what the original CEO of Costco said pay your employees well and they will be happy to work for you.

I've been working there for over 12 years and I couldn't be more happier. They pay extremely well for a retail chain. It does show if you pay your employees well they will want to work for you.

Disney parks used to be that way - to a certain extent. You could work full time with full benefits, rise up through the lower ranks to management level and be “middle class”…without a college degree that are peddled like street drugs in the US. But that fell by the wayside to a large extent.

They also used to let the product speak for itself…build it, build it great, and the money and merch will flow in After…
Now they seem to prefer “minimums” for marketing and spend gawd knows how much analyst money a year trying to put pricing behind smoke and mirrors.

It lead us to genie…which does not seem to be even about revenue…it’s a Hail Mary at operations management that is the result of 20 years of not paying attention. Doesn’t seem to be working either.

 

[willtravel]

Yellowstone last summer didn't feel any more crowded than normal, but others begged to differ. We also went to Glacier, which even with reservations seemed pretty crowded. Everything around Zion was also packed and we saw quite a few angry tourists storm away from the Carlsbad Cavern ticketing counter when they learned they needed to book separate cavern reservations in advance and that everything was sold out. We may be popping into Rocky Mountain this summer, so I have reservations just to be safe.

Just wondering about ressie's in Rockies? Tourist attractions?

We went to Yosimite last year for a couple days, had ressie, went end of May into June. Had a hell of a time getting there because they had a snowstorm and closed passes down. But finally got there and they were doing controlled burns. Had a hell of a time seeing park.

 

[Heppenheimer]

O/T, lol sorry guys. Definitely staffing issues. The mini golf place down by 13th street and boardwalk, the one with the gorilla and helicopter is advertising 16-17 bucks a hour salaries and almost every place has a help wanted sign. since we were only there for a day we didn't hit Asbury Ave. also I expected the beach tag patrol to go into effect yesterday but they weren't out

The one with the consistently well-operating gorilla animatronics, despite being exposed year round to a ocean-front weather? I'm just contrasting this to a certain large multimedia company that can't seem to be bothered to keep their props in working order.

 

[Minnesota disney fan]

My husband and I just got back from traveling, but not "revenge". We opted out of our annual trip to disney. Instead, we took a road trip and drove 1000 miles each way to Tennessee. We stayed with my brother and visited friends and family. We ate out every day at nice restaurants, bought whatever souveniers we wanted or other items, and spent a lot of money on gas! We stayed only 2 nights at hotels but I was very surprised to find a nice Best Western cost over $200.00 a night!
We had a great time. It was relaxing and enjoyable.
I figured up the receipts from our trip, including those very high gas bills, and it totaled less than $800.00!!!
I was expecting more than a thousand, because we didn't look at prices; just bought what we wanted.
Our disney trip for 7 days (we stayed in Tn. for 7 days too) would have been around 5000 for resort hotel and tickets, plus airfare for 2 would have been around $750 each for roundtrip out of our north Mn. town.
We saved a bundle with our trip, enjoyed it immensely, with no hassle or frustrations.
I wouldn't call it revenge travel, just an enjoyable replacement trip instead of our usual WDW trip.
Yes I know, it would have cost more if we had stayed at an airbnb, but I am comparing the 2 different trips. One trip, WDW, would have been very expensive for what you get, exhausting, frustrating, crowded, etc verses a relaxing, fun trip to the South which cost much less and ROI was fantastic.

 

[Club Cooloholic]

I can see how Acadia could easily get slammed with visitors. When you think about the population in the northeastern US and the number of people who may not want to drive all the way to the big western parks (or play around with air into the smaller airports in that region), Acadia seems like a no-brainer choice for park lovers in Boston, NYC, Philly, and DC area. Not to mention, Acadia is more of a bucket list park than the others more easily accessible from the northeast. I'm sure national parks like Cuyahoga Valley, Shenandoah and Congaree are worth a visit, but I'd much rather spend a week in Acadia.

And for what it's worth, if I lived in that part of the world, I'd be heading to the Tyrolean Alps as well

National parks are always busy in the summer, pandemic or not. You are right Acadia sort of draws people as it's one of the few in the east. That said we did Zion and Bryce last year and crowds were very manageable if you ask me. It's like Disney you just have to plan it right. Staying in park is the best way to avoid lines(again harder to do in Acadia as there is just campgrounds)

 

[HouCuseChickie]

Just wondering about ressie's in Rockies? Tourist attractions?

We went to Yosimite last year for a couple days, had ressie, went end of May into June. Had a hell of a time getting there because they had a snowstorm and closed passes down. But finally got there and they were doing controlled burns. Had a hell of a time seeing park.

The closest I've been to Yosemite is Mammoth Lakes, CA...in the winter. Considering what the roads were like after a snow storm and the seasonal closures past Devil's Postpile NM, it's clear that things get pretty dicey around Yosemite when snow is a factor. It can happen with Rocky Mountain (and other NPs as well) too. We stayed in Estes Park, CO on our last visit to RMNP, but all access routes to Estes Park take you through some pretty mountainous spots, which wouldn't be fun in snow. Trail Ridge Rd, which takes you through the park, will be shut down if snow is bad (it closes altogether for the winter). The highest point on this road is over 12,000 ft, so not a good place to be if snow comes in.

I had no problem getting my reservations for RMNP for this summer, although, I did book on the day they opened for June. Access that includes Bear Lake will sell out before the non-Bear Lake access pass. I looked around Estes Park and there was still hotel availability and lots of openings for things like horseback riding and night tours at the Stanley. I also looked at some other places, like Buena Vista, and there was still lots of Browns Canyon Whitewater rafting openings. I have to assume Royal Gorge would be the same. We will be in CO for a massive softball tournament and while lodging is pretty slim pickings at this late date, it only seems to be impacting towns to the east of the mountains on the northern side of Denver. i.e. Ft. Collins, Boulder, Loveland, Longmont, etc.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Have been in real estate for many years. People hate us for toothing and clawing away at proposed apartments and affordable communities in the central FL area. But we fight for our livelihoods, which is what people don't understand. It's been a war lately with the tiny home movement trying to elbow in and alter the market. Yet if we didn't fight those away, our livelihoods would suffer in many ways. Do I feel bad for those it impacts the most who are having it hard? Of course. But every realtor understands why we lobby and fight. We have homes and families ourselves to consider.

Don’t take it personally…I’m not suggesting that the “market” isn’t what it is. The consumers have the choice to buy or not buy based on their own situation/means

What I can’t stand…and its just starting…is “Disney has to charge us more because they just can’t get any labor…”

Bull. That’s conflating two things. But I digress.

 

[HouCuseChickie]

National parks are always busy I'm the summer, pandemic or not. You are right Acadia sort of draws people as it's one of the few in the east. That said we did Zion and Bryce last year and crowds were very manageable if you also me. It's like Disney you just have to plan it right. Staying in park is the best way to avoid lines(again harder to do in Acadia as there is just campgrounds)

The only issue we had in Bryce was parking at Sunset Point to see Thor's Hammer. Of course, nobody wanted to join me when I went into the park at sunrise...when the only crowding I experienced anywhere were some wild turkeys hogging the road. Zion was teeming with people, but I picked a hotel that was walking distance to the park entrance. The only bad part with Zion was some of the impact from the flash flooding in late June last year. We've had mixed experiences staying inside the national parks (at least the ones with lodging), so I've been trying to find a happy medium. Those always book up so far in advance that I either have to luck out with openings or know well in advance that the park is in our plans. I booked lodging for our Glacier visit 10-11 months out and it was too late to touch anything in the park. Of course, all of the park lodging has double beds which is a hard no for us, so it really didn't matter.

 

[Club Cooloholic]

The only issue we had in Bryce was parking at Sunset Point to see Thor's Hammer. Of course, nobody wanted to join me when I went into the park at sunrise...when the only crowding I experienced anywhere were some wild turkeys hogging the road. Zion was teeming with people, but I picked a hotel that was walking distance to the park entrance. The only bad part with Zion was some of the impact from the flash flooding in late June last year. We've had mixed experiences staying inside the national parks (at least the ones with lodging), so I've been trying to find a happy medium. Those always book up so far in advance that I either have to luck out with openings or know well in advance that the park is in our plans. I booked lodging for our Glacier visit 10-11 months out and it was too late to touch anything in the park. Of course, all of the park lodging has double beds which is a hard no for us, so it really didn't matter.

Oh we had to deal with desert rats in the cabins in both parks and in both parks and some sort of contamination made all the water in Bryce unusable, even to brush teeth.