Reservation expansion

[MrPromey]

There isn’t a family in existence that starts planning their WDW vacation by saying, “What choices can we make that will result in the best experience for people who aren’t us.”

100% agree

It’s up to Disney to decide on what system will give customers a chance at the best experience. That doesn’t mean making everyone equally upset at having to stand in long lines (fast or slow-moving) when there are so many other things to do. The lottery would be most fair if the proceeds were evenly distributed to all who played, but no one would play because it wouldn’t be worth it.

So we're comparing the planning and execution of a trip to Disney with the lottery now?

I get you loved the old system and hate the new one but seriously?

 

[Jrb1979]

100% agree



So we're comparing the planning and execution of a trip to Disney with the lottery now?

I get you loved the old system and hate the new one but seriously?

What comes down to is FP+ worked for their touring style.

 

[MrPromey]

But if there was an empty space somewhere (<cough> Stich’s great escape <cough>) that wasn’t getting used, then maybe DVC could come to an arrangement like they did in Epcot.

Wouldn't that take those spaces off the board for other attractions/retail in the future or at the very least, make future use of them for those purposes more difficult?

I know they're not using Stich today but a deal like that would complicate the future for spaces like this in what's already their densest park, wouldn't it?

 

[nickys]

Wouldn't that take those spaces off the board for other attractions/retail in the future or at the very least, make future use of them for those purposes more difficult?

I know they're not using Stich today but a deal like that would complicate the future for spaces like this in what's already their densest park, wouldn't it?

They’ve used the space at the top of the Imagination pyramid for several years now.

It doesn’t need to be that elaborate. The Epcot lounge has some seating, a desk for the CMs, a vending machine and some power sockets and USB ports. Makes for a nice air conditioned break from the park. And could be gutted in a day if they decide to use the space for something else.

 

[MrPromey]

What comes down to is FP+ worked for their touring style.

Yup.

I've been reading Chi84s posts regarding the loss of FP+ for quite a while now and I know they preferred the old system and are contemplating not going any more as a result of Genie+.

I get that it sucks for them. Disney has changed a lot in recent years in ways that suck for all of us, some more than others.

The irony though, is that they are perfectly able to understand why they liked the old system and why they don't like the new system but they seem to not understand that theirs is not the only valid perspective and that if the old system had been working for the majority of guests, Disney would have either continued to offer it for free or created a paid Genie+ system with very similar options.

They didn't and that wasn't an accident but they keep arguing for why it shouldn't have gone away by trying to make up their own logic when the truth is, they don't feel it should have gone away simply because they didn't want it to.

And that's okay to feel that way - there's a ton I feel that exact same way about - because I didn't want something to change or go away.

 

[Chi84]

The mental gymnasctis of these people trying to express moral outrage at a system like this because it doesn't benefit them specifically the way the old system did would be entertaining.

This is the part I don’t understand at all. Why does anyone feel the need to engage in mental gymnastics to advocate the WDW line-skip system that works best for them?

The most logical thing is to contact Disney, advocate the system they want, and explain why the others don’t work well for them.

Of course I advocate FP+ because it worked well for me, and I’ll continue to do so. But I do so with full understanding that other systems (including all standby) work better for others and I expect them to argue for those systems.

In my opinion, Disney doesn’t have enough capacity to justify a paid line-skip system which is why FastPasses were free at WDW but nowhere else.

Current management wanted to monetize it and chose a system that I don’t like. I would be okay with that if the system worked well for most people because I would just think “well, it’s their turn now.” But guest satisfaction results suggest otherwise.

I find the current system of park reservations/ Genie+ / ILLs/ restricted park hoppers inflexible and terribly annoying to use. Whether Disney comes up with something to replace it that I find provides value is completely up to Disney.

 

[MrPromey]

This is the part I don’t understand at all. Why does anyone feel the need to engage in mental gymnastics to advocate the WDW line-skip system that works best for them?

The most logical thing is to contact Disney, advocate the system they want, and explain why the others don’t work well for them.

Of course I advocate FP+ because it worked well for me, and I’ll continue to do so. But I do so with full understanding that other systems (including all standby) work better for others and I expect them to argue for those systems.

In my opinion, Disney doesn’t have enough capacity to justify a paid line-skip system which is why FastPasses were free at WDW but nowhere else.

Current management wanted to monetize it and chose a system that I don’t like. I would be okay with that if the system worked well for most people because I would just think “well, it’s their turn now.” But guest satisfaction results suggest otherwise.

I find the current system of park reservations/ Genie+ / ILLs/ restricted park hoppers inflexible and terribly annoying to use. Whether Disney comes up with something to replace it that I find provides value is completely up to Disney.

I'm leaving my comments regarding your previous post up to keep me honest but I take back my statements there regarding you seeming to not see or want to acknowledge other perspectives 100%

Also, I apologize.

 

[Chi84]

They didn't and that wasn't an accident but they keep arguing for why it shouldn't have gone away by trying to make up their own logic when the truth is, they don't feel it should have gone away simply because they didn't want it to.

This is true except for the “making up their own logic.” I don’t think it’s necessary. And I understand perfectly that no system will work well for everyone. The majority thing I’m not so sure about - systems that work best for the majority aren’t always the best ones. The best ones take into account competing views and interests.

 

[Jrb1979]

This is true except for the “making up their own logic.” I don’t think it’s necessary. And I understand perfectly that no system will work well for everyone. The majority thing I’m not so sure about - systems that work best for the majority aren’t always the best ones. The best ones strike a balance between competing views and interests.

That's what Express Pass at Universal is. From what most don't like about it is if it came to Disney it would price a lot of people out.

 

[Chi84]

That's what Express Pass at Universal is. From what most don't like about it is if it came to Disney it would price a lot of people out.

I still wonder how it would work there if they weren’t giving it out free to their deluxe resorts. That’s a lot of people!

Also, WDW parks were not built to be as ride-centered. AK in particular has so much to see in terms of shows, animal trails and other experiences. I’m not sure enough people would be willing to spend large sums just to skip the line for a few rides, which would leave it pretty much all standby with huge waits for things like FOP and the Safari ride. (Yes, I know that would work better for some and that is what they want.)

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

From what's been said the optimal number for Genie+ to work well is 10% of guests using it each day.

For my family if I'm paying for a skip the line system I expect more then 2-3 rides a day.

I will be honest I don't know what criteria you would use to come up with Optimal number of Genie+ users (i don't mean you, I mean Disney, or some objective standard for the term.) Is it revenue generated per day with Genie Plus sales? Is it lowest wait time for users? Is it number of rides ridden per day by a user? Is it lowest net effect on stand by lines?

I honestly loved FP+ because we generally stayed on property, and i loved pre-planning every detail of my trip, but I never saw it as a method to skip lines, as much as it was a planning tool to establish a schedule for the day.

I also maybe in the minority camp, but in addition to loving FP+, I have liked all 3 experiences I have had with Genie+, which run the gambit from a solo trip, to a group of 7, to a group of 10 during a major holiday weekend. In no time have I have seen it such that you were limited to 2-3 rides per day. Now unlike FP where you could pre-plan your day and have a better chance to get the ride you want, when you want it, genie plus is more a true line skipping program. You get to cut ahead of the line, at any one of the next available rides. The people i have found that are being limited to 2-3 rides a day are people who are trying to use Genie plus like FP, and booking specific rides, as opposed to getting on whatever ride is available next. I honestly don't think its a badly designed system as much as its peoples misunderstanding or refusal to use the system in the most optimal way.

 

[Jrb1979]

I will be honest I don't know what criteria you would use to come up with Optimal number of Genie+ users (i don't mean you, I mean Disney, or some objective standard for the term.) Is it revenue generated per day with Genie Plus sales? Is it lowest wait time for users? Is it number of rides ridden per day by a user? Is it lowest net effect on stand by lines?

I honestly loved FP+ because we generally stayed on property, and i loved pre-planning every detail of my trip, but I never saw it as a method to skip lines, as much as it was a planning tool to establish a schedule for the day.

I also maybe in the minority camp, but in addition to loving FP+, I have liked all 3 experiences I have had with Genie+, which run the gambit from a solo trip, to a group of 7, to a group of 10 during a major holiday weekend. In no time have I have seen it such that you were limited to 2-3 rides per day. Now unlike FP where you could pre-plan your day and have a better chance to get the ride you want, when you want it, genie plus is more a true line skipping program. You get to cut ahead of the line, at any one of the next available rides. The people i have found that are being limited to 2-3 rides a day are people who are trying to use Genie plus like FP, and booking specific rides, as opposed to getting on whatever ride is available next. I honestly don't think its a badly designed system as much as its peoples misunderstanding or refusal to use the system in the most optimal way.

For your first questions it's not just revenue related but also availability. Right now the top attractions are gone pretty quick each day. Wich leads to your last paragraph in how you used it is how it was meant to be used. Why most hate it is they only really used FP+ for their 3 attractions they wanted to use it for at their most optimal time.

 

[correcaminos]

DVC have obviously struck a deal with Disney over Top of the World Lounge, so they can use it as a bait for direct buyers. The running costs will presumably now be coming out of the DVC marketing budget, and they can mix both free access to “eligible” Members with paid-for events to make back some of the costs.

I think we might see more of this kind of perk being introduced. Although they need to remember the failure of the WL experiment that didn’t take off at all. In-park perks would make the most sense if they can swing it.

Not sure this is true. This was always considered a commercial space and with the new bookable option I think they plan it to remain. The bookable is a decent price considering too

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

Serious question…. How many times less?

Presumably the cost of travelling to Universal is the same as travelling to WDW. So it comes down to the cost of the tickets &/or hotel.

From what I can see the cost of tickets is comparable between the two parks. Both front load the cost, so the first few days cost more than adding days.

Which leaves the hotel. And you could stay offsite and spend the same amount.

So whilst I can absolutely see that planning a Universal vacation is a heck of a lot easier than planning a WDW one, I can’t really see this “many times less cost” argument, unless you stay onsite at the respective resorts. What’s the secret?

We spend less when we are at Universal.

1.Food costs less at US. It comes down to choices, and of course there is variability. But apples to apples, food costs a little less at US, and if you really want to pinch pennies, they have Burger King and Panda Express. If you eat at Universal in the table service range, TS costs less than WDW options. The WDW buffet pricing is now somewhat absurd, and a significant portion of WDW's TS are buffets. It is hard to avoid them at WDW.

2. Another way to get around Universal's pricing is - generally - to buy one of their annual Passes. they come in different perk levels/prices. Generally though, they cost less than WDW AP's and come with better perks.

3. Transportation also costs a little less, though it again comes down to choices. It is easier to get around within US compared to WDW. While WDW has free transportation, getting around is often VERY slow. So there is just about zero need to pay for a taxi to get around. US is also closer to MCO, if someone is paying for transportation for the airport, US probably costs a little less.

I'm sure someone could refute these points on some level, but this has been my experience. Except right now US hotel pricing is historically high.

 

[nickys]

Not sure this is true. This was always considered a commercial space and with the new bookable option I think they plan it to remain. The bookable is a decent price considering too

Not sure where you think I said it wouldn’t remain, the reference to WL was in terms of creating new ventures. TOTWL already has its selling point and can legitimately be considered a perk. Witness the upset from resale members who can no longer go there.

The fact that this is now restricted to “blue card” members suggests to me that, like Moonlight Magic, it’s now DVC Marketing who are paying the running costs. Whereas before it was open to any DVC members staying onsite 361 days a year. It wasn’t paid for with dues, therefor I think it was Disney who ran it and took the “profits” - only it wasn’t profitable.

By DVC now paying for it they can restrict it to blue card and use it as a perk.

 

[nickys]

We spend less when we are at Universal.

1.Food costs less at US. It comes down to choices, and of course there is variability. But apples to apples, food costs a little less at US, and if you really want to pinch pennies, they have Burger King and Panda Express. If you eat at Universal in the table service range, TS costs less than WDW options. The WDW buffet pricing is now somewhat absurd, and a significant portion of WDW's TS are buffets. It is hard to avoid them at WDW.

2. Another way to get around Universal's pricing is - generally - to buy one of their annual Passes. they come in different perk levels/prices. Generally though, they cost less than WDW AP's and come with better perks.

3. Transportation also costs a little less, though it again comes down to choices. It is easier to get around within US compared to WDW. While WDW has free transportation, getting around is often VERY slow. So there is just about zero need to pay for a taxi to get around. US is also closer to MCO, if someone is paying for transportation for the airport, US probably costs a little less.

I'm sure someone could refute these points on some level, but this has been my experience. Except right now US hotel pricing is historically high.

So if you’re talking of APs are you saying you visit Universal a couple of times a year or more? Or staying for a week and reaching the break even point sooner than for WDW?

But you claimed to spend many times less than at WDW for the same amount of time.

Granted if food is a little cheaper that’s a bonus. We don’t use a taxi around WDW, we use the buses. Even if we rent a car to go offsite like to Kennedy, we never drive on site. That was a selling point to us. But again, a few taxi rides.

So maybe half the food costs and a couple of taxis a day? That isn’t “many times less”. I was assuming you meant your vacation would cost like 25% or maybe 50%. Travel from your home state / country, accommodation, food, spending.

 

[correcaminos]

Not sure where you think I said it wouldn’t remain, the reference to WL was in terms of creating new ventures. TOTWL already has its selling point and can legitimately be considered a perk. Witness the upset from resale members who can no longer go there.

The fact that this is now restricted to “blue card” members suggests to me that, like Moonlight Magic, it’s now DVC Marketing who are paying the running costs. Whereas before it was open to any DVC members staying onsite 361 days a year. It wasn’t paid for with dues, therefor I think it was Disney who ran it and took the “profits” - only it wasn’t profitable.

By DVC now paying for it they can restrict it to blue card and use it as a perk.

No I meant I don't think DVD will finance/subsidize it. It will remain a commercial space that funds itself. DVD pays for all the perks and it wasn't even considered one before for direct vs not. In fact I think with the $55 option they plan to make more than before and just make it look like an awesome perk when it isn't really (unlike the free food and drink at Epcot). I said zero about it going away. Not sure why you jumped to that from my post....

 

[mikejs78]

No the physical line does not end up being MUCH longer because it isn't standing still anymore. Now people are being pulled from the front constantly. And also no, you don't have ALL the people who went through the flastpass/LL queue because there are tons of people who won't wait 45 minutes for an attraction but will take advantage of a line skip option to ride it.

Also, if you think getting rid of FP/LL would only reduce a 90 minute ride by 10 minutes on average there is no point in debating because we're miles apart on this.

Estimates have the reserved space for FP being well over 50% of capacity for most attractions. (look at TSMM and it's 2:1 build for an example). Some very basic math gives you an idea of how quickly those wait times can balloon in standby as a result of that. You have to severely limit the people in the line cut for it to not significantly impact the standby wait and that's not how Disney handled it.

You're missing the point. If there's no more line skip, then you either have to wait 45 minutes or you don't go. The number of people moving through a queue doesn't change that much. The actual number of people in line gets longer.

If there's 1000 people in a standby line with line skip, and 1000 people who go through line skip while those 1000 people are waiting on average, then you take away line skip and those 1000 people have to go somewhere. Now, a portion of them won't wait in line - maybe 20%. But now you have a standby line with 1800 people in it, not 1000. So it ends up being a physically longer line. But, since they aren't stopping to allow line skippers through, it moves physically faster. You're moving more often. But since there's now more people in that single line, the actual wait time doesn't change all that much. Maybe 10-20% shorter (some lines actually get longer during peak times, because line skip helps distribute people to less crowded times like later in the day).

And this isn't my opinion, this is backed by the data of pre-LL vs post-LL. Wait times climbed, but not by a whole lot. Take July 14, 2021, which was a CL-5 day, with no line skip: Average standby wait time for a number of attractions:

• HM: 56 minutes
• SM: 66 minutes
• PotC: 54 minutes
• Splash: 66 minutes
• BtmR: 42 minutes

Now lets take another CL5 day from this year, July 8, 2022, with Genie+, same rides:

• HM: 45 minutes
• SM: 54 minutes
• PotC: 40 minutes
• Splash: 66 minutes
• BtmR: 35 minutes

Roughly equivalent. In fact, the Genie+ times were actually better than the non-Genie+ times. FP+ did inflate wait times more - a similar day in 2019 (7/6/2019)

• HM: 51
• SM: 81
• PotC: 38
• Splash: 75
• BtmR: 40

But at the end of the day, wait times for most attractions were close, even with FP+. With the exception of FP+ and Space Mountain, the average wait time always fell within 10-15 minutes of each other, and were sometimes even higher without line skip.

 

[nickys]

No I meant I don't think DVD will finance/subsidize it. It will remain a commercial space that funds itself. I said zero about it going away. Not sure why you jumped to that from my post....

So it was this bit from your post:

I think they plan it to remain.

The fact that DVC have restricted it to “eligible members” and it has already been used in sales “patter” as a perk of buying direct suggests to me that DVD have come to an arrangement with Disney to pay for it.

Otherwise DVC have just restricted how many people can go on any one day, meaning it will take in even less money. And the word from CMs on this forum is that it was not profitable being run the way it was before. I don’t see Disney agreeing to that unless they have reached an agreement with DVC that covers the running costs.

 

[correcaminos]

So it was this bit from your post:



The fact that DVC have restricted it to “eligible members” and it has already been used in sales “patter” as a perk of buying direct suggests to me that DVD have come to an arrangement with Disney to pay for it.

Otherwise DVC have just restricted how many people can go on any one day, meaning it will take in even less money. And the word from CMs on this forum is that it was not profitable being run the way it was before. I don’t see Disney agreeing to that unless they have reached an agreement with DVC that covers the running costs.

As a commercial entity...... which is what I said right before. Sorry not really meaning to argue.... I just think the $55 option speaks volumes about it remaining commercial. Making it feel exclusive is big too. Will cause sales to rise.

Honestly I'm not bent on this enough to continue. Enjoy your day