Reservation expansion

[nickys]

Right now there is virtually no benefit of buying direct, which is often a 50% premium over resale. For some families, that cost made sense because of the AP discounts (which even when APs were available was heavily slashed).

So now, the current direct DVC benefits are:
- some small, but replaceable discounts
- moonlight magic (which most often don't coincide with a trip)
- lounge access (bay lake, imagination)

Surely you can’t have forgotten the new “portal” that allows us to book hotel rooms using part points and part cash through II? Like using points at other hotels, that “perk” is definitely not worth anything, but it looks good on paper.
/sarcasm font off/

The other perks which do have some benefit to some Members are being able to book at Riviera and booking the Member Cruises.

 

[nickys]

Oh and it's costing us many times less than a Disney vacation.

Serious question…. How many times less?

Presumably the cost of travelling to Universal is the same as travelling to WDW. So it comes down to the cost of the tickets &/or hotel.

From what I can see the cost of tickets is comparable between the two parks. Both front load the cost, so the first few days cost more than adding days.

Which leaves the hotel. And you could stay offsite and spend the same amount.

So whilst I can absolutely see that planning a Universal vacation is a heck of a lot easier than planning a WDW one, I can’t really see this “many times less cost” argument, unless you stay onsite at the respective resorts. What’s the secret?

 

[nickys]

Could they in theory do with these other sites do w the rental points? Create a new offering to rent points the same way if they are loaded with this inventory bc lets face it. Most people have NO clue you can actually rent points and stay at nicer resorts on property for basically a fraction of the price. They wouldnt even need to offer any perks to people booking for a vacation. They can easily sell at a higher rate as well bc imo people would be willing to pay more within reason to book directly than a 3rd party….

Disney own 3% or so of points at every resort. And they use those points to sell rooms at the DVC resorts to the public.

That’s their version of “renting” points out. They are essentially Members the same as every other Member and using the points they own in the same way.

The difference is they now have a whole load of points they’ve bought back on the resale market, which they need to sell to new buyers so they can start getting a return on those extra points, by way of maintenance fees.

 

[crazy4disney]

Which goes to my point that none of these systems really work when you are overselling access which is what they're doing - remember, that's the point we agreed on.

I say price it at $700 a day per person, limit the number sold per day and put the whole thing to rest until they actually build enough attractions to keep the number of people they let in busy for a complete day.

Good luck with return customers going basically full standby what kid or even adult really wants to wait hours to ride anything especially something they have seen countless times. Let alone new visitors reading horror stories online of either paying an obscene amount of money or choosing to stand in the heat for hours to go on something thats gonna last minutes…. Hence why again i dont understand why bringing back a paid version of FP at say double the price maybe triple and include inventory by adding in every attraction. Everyone shoots down the idea that maybe choosing your time slot means nothing but maybe it helped ease the system. We will
Never know bc no changes are coming until 2023. Because well its Disney

 

[crazy4disney]

Disney own 3% or so of points at every resort. And they use those points to sell rooms at the DVC resorts to the public.

That’s their version of “renting” points out. They are essentially Members the same as every other Member and using the points they own in the same way.

The difference is they now have a whole load of points they’ve bought back on the resale market, which they need to sell to new buyers so they can start getting a return on those extra points, by way of maintenance fees.

My point is if selling them becomes a burden bc when i was looking between AP and using the Visa card the perks were not much different again this was like 5 years ago why would anyone want to go directly thru them vs buying way cheaper Via 3 party. Hence why i suggested them becoming the “3 party” but Direct and charge a little more than what people would pay via that 3rd party. Like for me. I would 100% say pay a 10-15% premium to rent points directly w Disney vs say a Davids rental….

 

[nickys]

My point is if selling them becomes a burden bc when i was looking between AP and using the Visa card the perks were not much different again this was like 5 years ago why would anyone want to go directly thru them vs buying way cheaper Via 3 party. Hence why i suggested them becoming the “3 party” but Direct and charge a little more than what people would pay via that 3rd party. Like for me. I would 100% say pay a 10-15% premium to rent points directly w Disney vs say a Davids rental….

But why would Disney do that when they can sell those DVC rooms at $1000 a night in some cases?

Also why would you be prepared to pay more to rent from Disney? Let’s say Disney decided to create their own “broker” company. The terms would be the same as any other broker, no cancellation, no refunds. What would you get that you wouldn’t get going through a broker.?

Also, if they did decide to do that and then someone enquired about buying direct points at BCV, those points would be tied up for that year so they could lose out on a sale. Much more lucrative for them to sell the points than rent them out.

 

[nickys]

Buying direct does have some advantages in terms of the buying process itself. It’s instant, points can be in your account in a matter of days. You can ask for any use year you want and any number of points (subject to a minimum for a new buyer). Saves the wait for ROFR, not knowing if you’re going to get the contract or not.

 

[crazy4disney]

But why would Disney do that when they can sell those DVC rooms at $1000 a night in some cases?

Also why would you be prepared to pay more to rent from Disney? Let’s say Disney decided to create their own “broker” company. The terms would be the same as any other broker, no cancellation, no refunds. What would you get that you wouldn’t get going through a broker.?

Also, if they did decide to do that and then someone enquired about buying direct points at BCV, those points would be tied up for that year so they could lose out on a sale. Much more lucrative for them to sell the points than rent them out.

I would buy direct thru Disney bc i would think they may give you a refund or have a better cancel policy. Also going Direct w Disney probably allows you to use Gift cards which are discounted via Target so you can save that money and lastly to be able to deal directly w them im willing to pay a few extra bucks for what may or may not be a false sense of security.

They can try and sell them for 1k a night for sure but can they? I dont know. I was just throwing an idea around bc a poster stated that have been buying up a ton on inventory lately so it was nothing more than aconversationpiece. Can they get that type of money i guess time will tell if their hand is forced.

 

[dreday3]

For any system like this to work, there must be losers for there to be winners unless the park is slow enough to give everyone a reasonable wait time.

You say it doesn't negatively impact anyone and then quickly go back to your "everyone has a choice" argument so which is it?

You can't put everyone at the front of that line, right?

Given your feelings about what is fair and what isn't, why wouldn't you be on board with a more exclusive $1,000 lighting lane option?

What's the problem?

I never liked this argument when it came to vacations.

Some people who "play the game" will benefit more than others who don't. That's the way it is.
Some people who pay more will benefit more than others who don't. That's the way it is.
Some people will just get lucky every time with getting a boarding group, others won't. That's the way it is.

This isn't a trial for a new drug to cure a disease, its not waiting for a transplant (although there are requirements for that), it's not getting in line for a food bank....it's a vacation. It's okay to put your wants (not needs, you don't need a vacation!) first.
I've benefited from some of the things Disney has done and others have benefited instead of me at times. (obviously I don't mean by wants, go stand in front of a small child at a parade or something like that... )

If something works for someone, it's taken away and now what's in it's place isn't as good, of course that person would be annoyed.

And if they want to offer a lightening lane option for people willing to pay $1000, then so be it. Someone would pay it and I wouldn't begrudge them.

 

[nickys]

I would buy direct thru Disney bc i would think they may give you a refund or have a better cancel policy. Also going Direct w Disney probably allows you to use Gift cards which are discounted via Target so you can save that money and lastly to be able to deal directly w them im willing to pay a few extra bucks for what may or may not be a false sense of security.

They can try and sell them for 1k a night for sure but can they? I dont know. I was just throwing an idea around bc a poster stated that have been buying up a ton on inventory lately so it was nothing more than aconversationpiece. Can they get that type of money i guess time will tell if their hand is forced.

That would be undercutting themselves.

You can already book a DVC room through Disney. Disney are using their own points to sell those rooms. A Grand Villa will set you back several thousand a night, if you can get one through Disney that is. The bungalows and cabins at Poly and CCV respectively are possible to get, and studios, 1&2 bedroom villas are also possible to book. Take a look on the website, the rooms are already there if you want to “rent” a room direct from Disney.

Renting points through a broker trades a lower cost than the rack rates against a no changes, no cancellation policy. It makes zero sense for Disney to set up their own broker and undercut themselves.

 

[UnPocoLoco]

Right now there is virtually no benefit of buying direct, which is often a 50% premium over resale. For some families, that cost made sense because of the AP discounts (which even when APs were available was heavily slashed).

So now, the current direct DVC benefits are:
- some small, but replaceable discounts
- moonlight magic (which most often don't coincide with a trip)
- lounge access (bay lake, imagination)

We still have a gold AP but it’s nearing expiration. It will be some 60% more or so, after adding photopass also. The platinum to incredipass saw a MUCH smaller increase than we did for DVC eligible passes, and they stopped a discount for the top tier passss which some want for busy seasons.

The measly $10 off a $150 on parties is for the dates furthest from the holiday. It’s a “fine, here you go” and not a ”come join us”. Lounge access is lousy. It’s in one park and typically you have to wait. It should be in every park. There are DVC booths everywhere. How great would it be to show them a nice, modern lounge in each park as a sales pitch?

I don’t know if we will renew APs. I don’t know any other truly valuable benefits. I’ve read the benefits page and don’t care about 10% off at some Disney Springs shop. I do know we can sell 2 of our 3 contracts and keep blue card status. This was our intentional design when buying.

The Disney World I knew until 2020 when we bought DVC is not the same Disney World I know today. I really miss that all inclusive experience. I know it’s been beat to death but the bags and DME were really part of it for us.

While selling is unlikely, I would not buy more and do not recommend it as a new purchase unless you hold the sale of a new AP as a hostage to complete the sale. If 30k + the cost of an AP doesn’t get their attention to let you come to the park for a year…forget it.

 

[nickys]

The DVC market is under tremendous stress, yes. The volume of resale contracts has increased significantly and Disney has been forced to purchase obscene numbers of them via Right of First Refusal to keep the resale market from imploding. They are holding a significant number of direct points on their books at all sold out resorts. I don't know how much longer they can keep their finger in the dam.

As for selling DVC under marketed benefits, those benefits were always subject to modification and/or removal. That's not really the issue. The issue is I have no idea how they plan to move all of these direct points they've accumulated via ROFR on top of points still in inventory at Aulani and Riviera and on top of even more points coming at the Poly and GF all without adding benefits back. They have to do something.

This is just not accurate. DVC sold a near record number of both Riviera and Grand Floridian points in their most recent disclosure. They are not having a problem moving points right now, including from the sold out resorts (with the exception of Aulani). The resale market continues to be incredibly strong as well. You can see what kinds of things they’re ROFR’ing right now on the tracking thread on disboards. They are not artificially inflating the market, it’s just really strong. It probably will crash a bit if we enter a recession but this just hasn’t happened yet.

I suspect you’re both right.

Yes, sales are going pretty well for the new resorts, especially with add-ons for GFV. Aulani - not so much but that will always be a problem for them.

And they are also ROFRing a lot more than usual right now, but that is after 18 months when they didn’t ROFR a single contract. So yes they also have a larger than usual number of points for the sold out resorts.

People are still buying direct. I suspect that what is happening though is that a decade ago, even more recently than that, people just bought the newer resorts because that’s what they were offered. I know that was true for us when we bought Bay Lake. Nowadays though people do a lot more in terms of researching resorts and know where they want to buy. And they are prepared to walk away than be persuaded to buy the new shiny resort. So Disney have realised it’s in their interests to have points available at all resorts, so they can make a sale than lose one.

 

[crazy4disney]

That would be undercutting themselves.

You can already book a DVC room through Disney. Disney are using their own points to sell those rooms. A Grand Villa will set you back several thousand a night, if you can get one through Disney that is. The bungalows and cabins at Poly and CCV respectively are possible to get, and studios, 1&2 bedroom villas are also possible to book. Take a look on the website, the rooms are already there if you want to “rent” a room direct from Disney.

Renting points through a broker trades a lower cost than the rack rates against a no changes, no cancellation policy. It makes zero sense for Disney to set up their own broker and undercut themselves.

yes in theory yes you can book a room that is a DVC resort? All i did was throw something out there as a conversation piece a way for them to possibly unload unused inventory if they are truly long some of these properties & cant sell them at rack rates. I dk their numbers as far as booked up resort rooms especially on the monorail loop but based on countless threads insiders who do know seem to hint they keep converting bc they cant sell these out to regular paying guests hence the conversion unless i misinterpreted whats been being said... hence my question/suggestion/thought

 

[Disney Glimpses]

This is just not accurate. DVC sold a near record number of both Riviera and Grand Floridian points in their most recent disclosure. They are not having a problem moving points right now, including from the sold out resorts (with the exception of Aulani). The resale market continues to be incredibly strong as well. You can see what kinds of things they’re ROFR’ing right now on the tracking thread on disboards. They are not artificially inflating the market, it’s just really strong. It probably will crash a bit if we enter a recession but this just hasn’t happened yet.

The issue is not on the new resort side. It’s the fact that they have points to sell (and are selling) on the new resort side while also hold a record number of direct points on their books at sold out resorts and continuing to spend even more money ROFRing contracts at record rates.

The resale market is strong because they are keeping it strong by preventing dips in value. Disney is now purchasing 25% of all resale DVC contracts. This is unprecedented and unsustainable for them.

And as you know, buyers are advised to make offers above a price that Disney is expected to take a contract through ROFR.

If Disney no longer had the financial resources to take contracts through ROFR (which is becoming more and more likely), the market would likely see a significant, double digit hit overnight.

 

[nickys]

yes in theory yes you can book a room that is a DVC resort? All i did was throw something out there as a conversation piece a way for them to possibly unload unused inventory if they are truly long some of these properties & cant sell them at rack rates. I dk their numbers as far as booked up resort rooms especially on the monorail loop but based on countless threads insiders who do know seem to hint they keep converting bc they cant sell these out to regular paying guests hence the conversion unless i misinterpreted whats been being said... hence my question/suggestion/thought

I think maybe we’re at cross purposes.

The DVC company aren’t stockpiling DVC contracts that they can’t offload. The contracts they’re buying back on the resale market are being sold.

Converting deluxe rooms that Disney can’t sell to DVC rooms, like they’ve just done at GF, makes Disney money and reduces inventory of rooms that they have to sell. It’s a win-win for Disney and shifts the “problem” to DVC who then sell the points. It also saves Disney money on the running of the shared resorts because the maintenance fees cover the proportion of the costs according to occupancy. Eg: If the Poly has 50% regular rooms and 50% DVC rooms, DVC cover half the running costs through the maintenance fees.

Disney creating some kind of broker to rent “extra” DVC points isn’t going to happen for the reasons I’ve given. It isn’t a solution to not being able to sell points. If DVC rooms don’t get booked by owners, Disney get to take those rooms and sell them to the public. But I don’t think there is a problem of points not selling.

If there’s a recession the big winners are those who can afford to buy points. The last recession some people bought thousands of points at less than $10 per point, as other owners were forced to sell.

 

[nickys]

The issue is not on the new resort side. It’s the fact that they have points to sell (and are selling) on the new resort side while also hold a record number of direct points on their books at sold out resorts and continuing to spend even more money ROFRing contracts at record rates.

The resale market is strong because they are keeping it strong by preventing dips in value. Disney is now purchasing 25% of all resale DVC contracts. This is unprecedented and unsustainable for them.

And as you know, buyers are advised to make offers above a price that Disney is expected to take a contract through ROFR.

If Disney no longer had the financial resources to take contracts through ROFR (which is becoming more and more likely), the market would likely see a significant, double digit hit overnight.

Where are you getting that 25% figure from? I know various sites have records of contracts that pass ROFR but I don’t know who monitors the proportion of those taken at ROFR.

 

[Disney Glimpses]

The DVC company aren’t stockpiling DVC contracts that they can’t offload. The contracts they’re buying back on the resale market are being sold.

Not entirely true. From what I’ve heard, for the first time they are calling owners at sold out resorts advertising available points, no waitlist. In fact, I personally got 3 calls from my guide asking if I wanted 2042 resort points.

 

[Disney Glimpses]

Where are you getting that 25% figure from? I know various sites have records of contracts that pass ROFR but I don’t know who monitors the proportion of those taken at ROFR.

Sorry, 24.1%:

DVC Right of First Refusal June '22 | DVC Resale Market

Year-to-date (YTD), Disney has exercised their right of first refusal (ROFR) on 647 Disney Vacation Club (DVC) contracts, resulting in a 24.1% buyback rate.

www.dvcresalemarket.com

 

[nickys]

Sorry, 24.1%:

DVC Right of First Refusal June '22 | DVC Resale Market

Year-to-date (YTD), Disney has exercised their right of first refusal (ROFR) on 647 Disney Vacation Club (DVC) contracts, resulting in a 24.1% buyback rate.

www.dvcresalemarket.com

So what was the proportion say 3 years ago I wonder. They didn’t ROFR anything IIRC between the park closure and sometime last summer.

I do know they made an attempt to get 2042 OKW points, but the offer was so derisory they seemed to realise it was getting them nowhere. That was obviously an attempt to sort out the legal mess they’ve created there.

 

[nickys]

Not entirely true. From what I’ve heard, for the first time they are calling owners at sold out resorts advertising available points, no waitlist. In fact, I personally got 3 calls from my guide asking if I wanted 2042 resort points.

I’d love to get some BCV points but not at their price. I already have my “blue card”, if I was to buy I’d try for a small resale contract.