Reservation expansion

[crazy4disney]

You are missing the point.

There were limited spots available to reserve. (do to the capacity problems we agree on)

You're calling people lazy or incompetent because they got in there to book it after YOU, specifically.

What would you call yourself if those same people had managed to get in ahead of you and shut you out of it?

It's not like everyone had an equal or fair chance at nabbing this stuff - it wasn't even equal for resort guests since your window for booking was based on your total length of stay.

I get it - it worked FOR YOU.

Do you at least admit that for as much of a benefit this system was for you, the only reason it worked for you is because it had to negatively impact a lot of other people's trips?

Again, it's the same number of spaces on the same number of attractions either way. When demand is 100% all day, the only way for one person to get on faster is for someone else to wait longer and not all fastpasses were even close to equal - you understand this, right?

again as a resort guest as this was a perk to book early i dk how it was a negative experience & disney should be concerned 1st and foremost about those customers & again the initial reason given was people didnt like it bc if the advanced planning now its switched to a system that didnt work... so i ask again which one are we going with today? No system will be perfect , Genie is awful & honestly the only thing worse they can do is create a system that prices most families out and go full standby for everyone else bc the parks CANT hold the capacity....

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I would gladly pay to skip the interviews on the cosmic rewind queue...

I just paid to bypass the queue

 

[sullyinMT]

Carowinds still has what is probably the best roller coaster in North America. Sure park is very six flags but the coasters are legit.

Sure the coasters are the real deal. But I'm just saying the overall experience doesn't justify an international vacation destination, unless you are a coaster chaser. The experience in Sandusky or Mason, OH, is a better overall experience. I'm biased, though, as I could walk from my high school to Kings Island. My opinion is definitely skewed.

Bingo! And it's sad to see people bending over backwards to defend this nonsense. Disney is exorbitantly expensive, and for the amount of money shelled out to visit, they should be doing everything they can to make their guests' vacations easier. Instead they actively work to do the opposite . I actually laughed to myself when I started researching for our Uni trip, because it's been 15 years since I've been there, and I quickly realized I don't need to pull my hair out pre-vacation. Oh and it's costing us many times less than a Disney vacation. Thanks Universal!

As I sat watching a recent construction update for Epic Universe, though, fears of Uni becoming "more Disney" in a few years started to creep into the back of my mind. They've really increased onsite hotel rooms with Aventura, Endless Summer, and Sapphire Falls, without a huge increase in capacity. Hagrid's is a replacement of Dragons that is definitely more family friendly, but Velocicoaster doesn't have the mass appeal needed to eat guests. Epic Universe could be simply amazing, and will spread guests a little further out, but another hotel in/near that gate will invite a new crush of guests - plus developments like Flamingo Crossings with hotels within an Uber shot away. It's not unfathomable that the influx of guests could force Universal's hand to restrict AP access or have guests choose a park/day. Hogsmeade Express makes multi-park time restrictions (hopping) hopefully non-existent at least with the two "legacy" gates, though. But I could see guests locked in to their original neighborhood, so to speak (IoA/US, VB, or Epic) until after lunch time.

 

[Touchdown]

If you asked CF what their 5 most important properties were I bet it would be Cedar Point, Kings Island, Knotts, Canadas Wonderland and Carrowinds. They are pouring as much cash into CW as those other parks.

 

[HauntedPirate]

The DVC market is under tremendous stress, yes. The volume of resale contracts has increased significantly and Disney has been forced to purchase obscene numbers of them via Right of First Refusal to keep the resale market from imploding. They are holding a significant number of direct points on their books at all sold out resorts. I don't know how much longer they can keep their finger in the dam.

As for selling DVC under marketed benefits, those benefits were always subject to modification and/or removal. That's not really the issue. The issue is I have no idea how they plan to move all of these direct points they've accumulated via ROFR on top of points still in inventory at Aulani and Riviera and on top of even more points coming at the Poly and GF all without adding benefits back. They have to do something.

This. OMG, this!

They are going to have one hell of a time unloading all the points on their books as it is, and if they don't bring back some benefits, and offer up some new ones, it's going to be a cold, dark time for DVC. And none of this "limited time" nonsense. Any benefit has to last for at least a year, if not two or more. An economic recession could do wonders for DVC members... Their own reservation pool? AP access? Other food/bev/merchandise discounts? The tools are there, but they keep the toolbox locked and sitting on a landmine.

 

[crazy4disney]

This. OMG, this!

They are going to have one hell of a time unloading all the points on their books as it is, and if they don't bring back some benefits, and offer up some new ones, it's going to be a cold, dark time for DVC. And none of this "limited time" nonsense. Any benefit has to last for at least a year, if not two or more. An economic recession could do wonders for DVC members... Their own reservation pool? AP access? Other food/bev/merchandise discounts? The tools are there, but they keep the toolbox locked and sitting on a landmine.

Could they in theory do with these other sites do w the rental points? Create a new offering to rent points the same way if they are loaded with this inventory bc lets face it. Most people have NO clue you can actually rent points and stay at nicer resorts on property for basically a fraction of the price. They wouldnt even need to offer any perks to people booking for a vacation. They can easily sell at a higher rate as well bc imo people would be willing to pay more within reason to book directly than a 3rd party….

 

[HauntedPirate]

Could they in theory do with these other sites do w the rental points? Create a new offering to rent points the same way if they are loaded with this inventory bc lets face it. Most people have NO clue you can actually rent points and stay at nicer resorts on property for basically a fraction of the price. They wouldnt even need to offer any perks to people booking for a vacation. They can easily sell at a higher rate as well bc imo people would be willing to pay more within reason to book directly than a 3rd party….

Good question. I don't know if Disney is allowed to rent points. Anyone? I know they've "rented" members small amounts of points when they have been a few short, but outside of that...? Of course, Disney renting points is going to royally **** off a lot of 3rd party companies, but it's not like Disney cares.

 

[Doberge]

Disney will not rent point directly because it'd conflict with their cash reservations through the main website. They would either undercut themselves or still usually (but not always!) be less attractive than renting through traditional means. Also, unless they start buying contracts with banked points they wouldn't have much to rent anyway because they can only really sell contracts with current use year points. (Sometimes they buy stripped contracts because they're cheap and then they sit on them until points are current again).

 

[crazy4disney]

Good question. I don't know if Disney is allowed to rent points. Anyone? I know they've "rented" members small amounts of points when they have been a few short, but outside of that...? Of course, Disney renting points is going to royally **** off a lot of 3rd party companies, but it's not like Disney cares.

Wasnt that what they did with ME w al these car companies….so yea Disney not gonna care at all lol

 

[Tha Realest]

Doesn’t Disney rent out DVC villas already?

 

[mikejs78]

The same amount of space it takes to hold a slow moving line for 60 minutes can be used to hold a fast moving line for 20.

Is the line just as long? Yes. Do the people in it get to the attraction faster? Also yes.

Yes but now you have all the people who went through the fast pass/LL queue in standby. So the line isn't 20 minutes. The physical line ends up being much longer. So a 90 minute wait may end up becoming an 80 minute wait with a much longer physical line. Or a 60 minute wait might become 54. But at least you'll be moving fast!

 

[crazy4disney]

Yes but now you have all the people who went through the fast pass/LL queue in standby. So the line isn't 20 minutes. The physical line ends up being much longer. So a 90 minute wait may end up becoming an 80 minute wait with a much longer physical line. Or a 60 minute wait might become 54. But at least you'll be moving fast!

Maybe im alone with this or maybe im not. But i rather wait in line 30 minutes stopping and going than wait in line 60 minutes constantly moving

 

[Vacationeer]

Disney will not rent point directly because it'd conflict with their cash reservations through the main website. They would either undercut themselves or still usually (but not always!) be less attractive than renting through traditional means. Also, unless they start buying contracts with banked points they wouldn't have much to rent anyway because they can only really sell contracts with current use year points. (Sometimes they buy stripped contracts because they're cheap and then they sit on them until points are current again).

Plus there’s too much difference between cash rooms and DVC rental. Guests would carry expectations from one onto the other. Could you imagine the confusion if the WDW site started offering DVC rentals as an option. ”What do you mean I can’t cancel?! Oh ok… How about I reschedule? What?!!! There’s only OKW rooms left now? But I’m seeing a whole bunch of other resorts available…” Not worth the headache for WDW, especially when it risks competing with cash stays and direct contracts they already offer.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

The DVC market is under tremendous stress, yes. The volume of resale contracts has increased significantly and Disney has been forced to purchase obscene numbers of them via Right of First Refusal to keep the resale market from imploding. They are holding a significant number of direct points on their books at all sold out resorts. I don't know how much longer they can keep their finger in the dam.

This is just not accurate. DVC sold a near record number of both Riviera and Grand Floridian points in their most recent disclosure. They are not having a problem moving points right now, including from the sold out resorts (with the exception of Aulani). The resale market continues to be incredibly strong as well. You can see what kinds of things they’re ROFR’ing right now on the tracking thread on disboards. They are not artificially inflating the market, it’s just really strong. It probably will crash a bit if we enter a recession but this just hasn’t happened yet.

 

[bhg469]

I just paid to bypass the queue

The couple times I've been on I only say the scene once. That was enough!! The rest of the queue is pretty beautiful though.

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

You are missing the point.

There were limited spots available to reserve. (do to the capacity problems we agree on)

You're calling people lazy or incompetent because they got in there to book it after YOU, specifically.

What would you call yourself if those same people had managed to get in ahead of you and shut you out of it?

It's not like everyone had an equal or fair chance at nabbing this stuff - it wasn't even equal for resort guests since your window for booking was based on your total length of stay.

I get it - it worked FOR YOU.

Do you at least admit that for as much of a benefit this system was for you, the only reason it worked for you is because it had to negatively impact a lot of other people's trips?

Again, it's the same number of spaces on the same number of attractions either way. When demand is 100% all day, the only way for one person to get on faster is for someone else to wait longer and not all fastpasses were even close to equal - you understand this, right?

No I think your missing the point.

Everyone did have an equal and fair chance at grabbing the stuff. Everyone was/is free to choose to stay on property or not, to choose a longer stay on property or a shorter one. There are pluses and minus for each decision you make as to where to stay, how long, and when to start your stay. Everyone had the same options available to them. That is what fair and equal is.

And no, just because the system works for some people, doesn't mean that it had to negatively impact other people. The fact that someone chose to stay off property to save money, but as a result didn't get to make FP reservations as early as I did staying on property doesn't mean I negatively impacted their trip. It meant they made a choice.

You also seem try to pigeon whole a trip looking at it as a single day. I don't know many people that go to WDW and just spend a single day there. The beauty of the pre-planning FP system was being able to lock in your choices for your entire trip in advance. So no my getting a FP on Monday for PofC is not going to require someone to necessarily wait in line longer on Monday. They can just as easily decide to try for a FP of PofC on Tuesday, and skip the line on Monday. The idea of trying to lower wait times across the board for all rides is just silly, and not in keeping with how most people visit WDW. If I can get on all the rides I want over the course of my trip, without waiting in line, that is what I want. The ride length on the rides I don't want to go on is irrelevant. The ride length on the ride I have a FP for tomorrow is irrelevant today, since I don't have to wait in it.

 

[MrPromey]

No I think your missing the point.

Everyone did have an equal and fair chance at grabbing the stuff. Everyone was/is free to choose to stay on property or not, to choose a longer stay on property or a shorter one. There are pluses and minus for each decision you make as to where to stay, how long, and when to start your stay. Everyone had the same options available to them. That is what fair and equal is.

And no, just because the system works for some people, doesn't mean that it had to negatively impact other people. The fact that someone chose to stay off property to save money, but as a result didn't get to make FP reservations as early as I did staying on property doesn't mean I negatively impacted their trip. It meant they made a choice.

You also seem try to pigeon whole a trip looking at it as a single day. I don't know many people that go to WDW and just spend a single day there. The beauty of the pre-planning FP system was being able to lock in your choices for your entire trip in advance. So no my getting a FP on Monday for PofC is not going to require someone to necessarily wait in line longer on Monday. They can just as easily decide to try for a FP of PofC on Tuesday, and skip the line on Monday. The idea of trying to lower wait times across the board for all rides is just silly, and not in keeping with how most people visit WDW. If I can get on all the rides I want over the course of my trip, without waiting in line, that is what I want. The ride length on the rides I don't want to go on is irrelevant. The ride length on the ride I have a FP for tomorrow is irrelevant today, since I don't have to wait in it.

For any system like this to work, there must be losers for there to be winners unless the park is slow enough to give everyone a reasonable wait time.

You say it doesn't negatively impact anyone and then quickly go back to your "everyone has a choice" argument so which is it?

You can't put everyone at the front of that line, right?

Given your feelings about what is fair and what isn't, why wouldn't you be on board with a more exclusive $1,000 lighting lane option?

What's the problem?

 

[MrPromey]

Yes but now you have all the people who went through the fast pass/LL queue in standby. So the line isn't 20 minutes. The physical line ends up being much longer. So a 90 minute wait may end up becoming an 80 minute wait with a much longer physical line. Or a 60 minute wait might become 54. But at least you'll be moving fast!

No the physical line does not end up being MUCH longer because it isn't standing still anymore. Now people are being pulled from the front constantly. And also no, you don't have ALL the people who went through the flastpass/LL queue because there are tons of people who won't wait 45 minutes for an attraction but will take advantage of a line skip option to ride it.

Also, if you think getting rid of FP/LL would only reduce a 90 minute ride by 10 minutes on average there is no point in debating because we're miles apart on this.

Estimates have the reserved space for FP being well over 50% of capacity for most attractions. (look at TSMM and it's 2:1 build for an example). Some very basic math gives you an idea of how quickly those wait times can balloon in standby as a result of that. You have to severely limit the people in the line cut for it to not significantly impact the standby wait and that's not how Disney handled it.

 

[MrPromey]

again as a resort guest as this was a perk to book early i dk how it was a negative experience & disney should be concerned 1st and foremost about those customers & again the initial reason given was people didnt like it bc if the advanced planning now its switched to a system that didnt work... so i ask again which one are we going with today? No system will be perfect , Genie is awful & honestly the only thing worse they can do is create a system that prices most families out and go full standby for everyone else bc the parks CANT hold the capacity....

Which goes to my point that none of these systems really work when you are overselling access which is what they're doing - remember, that's the point we agreed on.

I say price it at $700 a day per person, limit the number sold per day and put the whole thing to rest until they actually build enough attractions to keep the number of people they let in busy for a complete day.

 

[nickys]

I am not a DVC member but this whole experience reinforces my "get it in writing" mindset.

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like the availability of discounted APs is something that was used as a selling tool for DVC but because Disney was not contractually bound to keep providing that "perk" they were able to cut it off for everyone.

Is that about right?

To which I mean, the part about them talking about a benifit on a long-term sale that they weren't obligated to maintain for the life of the sale?

A part of me always wants to say "sucker!" when people fall for this stuff but there was a time I could not have fathomed Disney stooping to the level of pulling this kind of crap on anyone - be it their best long-term customers or some dude off the street with a day ticket.

This used to be the company known for bending over backwards to make things right for their guests.

I might have the wrong idea about all of this but having heard so much anger from so many DVC members over this issue, I have to think it was presented as a perk up front to encourage sales at some point and not just something members found out about in their welcome package after signing the contract.

Correct.

Although certainly when we bought, our Guide did say that all perks could be withdrawn at any time. They don’t hard sell in that regard

Another point is that this wasn’t DVC taking away this perk. Disney made that move and there is nothing that DVC can do about it. So although many members are angry, for the most part it’s been directed at Disney.

The Top of the World Lounge move though did generate some anger against DVC from those affected, since that was clearly a specific decision made to create a new perk for buying direct. Although they partly countered that by removing the borrowing restriction, a masterpiece of timing if ever I saw one.