captainkidd
Well-Known Member
Do you honestly think children your daughters age can name more than 3 Zeppelin songs?
-
Welcome to the WDWMAGIC.COM Forums!
Please take a look around, and feel free to sign up and join the community.
Replacement Band for Rock 'n' Roller Coaster
- Thread starter GeorgiaPinesRJB
- Start date
Do you honestly think children your daughters age can name more than 3 Zeppelin songs?
captainkidd
Well-Known Member
No, numbers are facts.
If the Magic Kingdom draws 18 million guests per year and Disneyland Park draws 16 million guests per year, are you going to try and argue that more people visit Disneyland Park?
flynnibus
Premium Member
Thats an interesting comparison and says they are still willing to promote their recent work - more faith in the recent work.
But here's another list when talking about relevance.. if you look at Aerosmith (as another example since they are the act in place..) they rebooted themselves with pop relevance. The Run DMC collaboration in the 80s.. and then movie soundtracks in the 90s.
So if we look at Bon Jovi in film/TV... we see all of their presence is dominated by a mere handful of songs
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000954/
Blaze of Glory was monster for JBV... it helped bring him back to the front. To get that 'front of the crowd' attention, they need something that will cross-over demographics and get them outside their traditional fan base. Where is that for Bon Jovi?
Look at what a simple plug by Glee did for Journey? Bon Jovi has been featured there too but didn't have that same spark.
Honestly beyond 'wanted..' and probably 'its my life..' I doubt I'd hear much sing-along at the bar/party
flynnibus
Premium Member
That wasn't part of my criteria for the ride's selection - that was a point in a discussion about 'relevance today'. Don't cross the streams...
For young people there are a lot of songs they are ingrained with that they would recognize, but not be able to name the artist. The same could be said of the Stones and Beatles. Kids recognize the music - but aren't fans of the band.
flynnibus
Premium Member
Sales numbers only tell you how many things sold - it doesn't tell you more than that. It won't tell you who someone's favorite band is. It won't tell you who their fans are. etc etc
Statistics are just elements used to build conclusions - they aren't the conclusions themselves. And that is why people can still get the wrong answer with the right numbers.
captainkidd
Well-Known Member
So much wrong, I don't even know where to start.
Blaze of Glory didn't bring "him back". It was in 1990, the same year the New Jersey Tour ended. They were the biggest band in the world at the time.
As for crossing over and getting a new fan base, where shall I start?
How about Always being their biggest selling single ever, released 10 years after their first album?
How about It's My Life becoming their biggest selling single ever, 6 years after Always?
How about Who Says You Can't Go Home becoming the first song by a rock band to hit #1 on the country charts, 5 years after It's My Life?
You've never been to a Karaoke bar or wedding where they played Livin' On A Prayer and everyone sang along?
I don't understand what your point is by your IMDB reference. Are we referring to songs of theirs that have been in movies? If so, I can't see where your argument is:
Off the top of my head:
Only Lonely - Light of Day
Raise Your Hands - Spaceballs
Prayer - Rock Star
Mister Big Time - Armageddon
I'll Be There For You - A Lot Like Love
Wanted Dead Or Alive - Harley Davidson and the Marlboro Man, Wild Hogs, Rock of Ages, The Sopranos, Deadliest Catch
Good Guys Don't Always Wear White - The Cowboy Way
Bad Medicine - Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back
Young Guns II - The entire soundtrack
Edge Of A Broken Heart - Disorderlies
Real Life - EdTV
Lost Highway - Wild Hogs
Runaway - Paul Blart: Mall Cop
Jon also wrote 3 songs that will appear in the movie and on the Soundtrack for a new film called Stand Up Guys with Al Pacino and Christopher Walken. I'm sure there are others as well, not to mention dozens of songs and references on TV shows. Like I said, I'm lost on what point you're attempting to make here.
A song like Livin' On A Prayer or Wanted showing up in several movies doesn't take anything away from any of their other music. Those are staple songs that are universally known. Twisting that against them is very odd.
flynnibus
Premium Member
Popular - yes. Biggest band in the world? I have a hard time feeling that at any time. You fail to differentiate between 'popular in their scene' and 'culturally signigificant or relevant'. You keep going back to sales numbers - which doesn't say ANYTHING except they are selling lots of albums to some people. It doesn't mean anything in terms of visibility in general culture, cross overs, etc.
I'm not saying it wouldn't happen.. I'm saying that's not what popped to the front for me. Again - highly regionalized and specific demographics. When I'm hanging out with all my 40+ yr old jersey girls.. I know it will come up. When I was just on a 15 hour bender in College Park on Saturday including 5 different bars and two live bands.. there was no Bon Jovi to be found.
You were showing how they actually played more of their later half of their portfolio in concert - and I was showing that in pop culture, its still dominated by their early works and there wasn't any apparent breakout movement or pivot for them in pop culture in the past 10+ years as seen in those appearances. Appearances or soundtracks that bring Bon Jovi back to the front in popular culture and significance. I wasn't seeing any.
You love going back to the album sales - no one is contesting that. But what you draw from those album sales can be misguided. If you were to solely go on Album Sales... we could be arguing how Stevie Wonder is bigger than Bon Jovi or Phil Collins. That's why album sales alone don't tell a complete story.
But will they be performed by Bon Jovi? If not, I don't see how his writing credits will bring Bon Jovi to the front...
captainkidd
Well-Known Member
The front of what? Relevance in your eyes? In many people's eyes, they've been there for quite some time and still are. THAT is all subjective.
Much has been talked about Bon Jovi's crossover appeal in country and adult contemporary. You simply not hearing it or following it doesn't mean it's not true.
Much has been talked about Bon Jovi's crossover appeal in country and adult contemporary. You simply not hearing it or following it doesn't mean it's not true.
flynnibus
Premium Member
Which is why I had used specific examples.. like TV appearances... exposure to others (not just me) around me.. etc. I'm not going purely on what I think.
captainkidd
Well-Known Member
But that's where you and I see things differently. I see them on TV appearances all the time. Why? Because I'm paying attention for it. You're not, because you're not a fan. I wouldn't expect you to. My guess is Justin Bieber is on TV constantly, but I wouldn't know that because I'm not interested and don't follow him.
Saturday Night Live - They've been on there half a dozen times. Jon even hosted the show. The Today Show - They've performed more of those outdoor concerts (and drawn more people) than any other artist. Live 8 - They were there. Concert for NYC - They were there. NFL Games - They've been there. Katrina and Sandy TV fundraiser - They were there. Movie theaters - 1 week from tonight, they'll be there:
NormC
Well-Known Member
Lighten up Francis. Sarcasm is hard to write in a forum. They are not as popular as they used to be.
captainkidd
Well-Known Member
Can you name any living artist that is after 30 years?
NormC
Well-Known Member
I could list many that are still more popular than Bon Jovi but you would not agree and this thread would get even further off track so I won't.
flynnibus
Premium Member
One could make arguments for acts like...
Rolling Stones
Elton John
Celine Dion
Bruce
and maybe to a lesser extent AC/DC
The problem is again the differences in what 'popular' or 'relevant' are reflecting. Many acts use non-musical tie-ins to keep themselves in the forefront of society/news.. which in turn can help keep them fresh in people's eyes.. even if they aren't making new studio albums. Is the ability to keep repacking old songs and sell them in high volumes mean they are popular? Or how liked the songs are still? Or is it only new tracks that matter? Or how well they can tour? Or their prominence in industry or culture?
All bands have their loyal fans. Many types of music are highly segmented so they never get that mainstream appeal.
So what is 'popular' or 'relevant'? IMO - relevant is about gaining NEW fans, still being an influence in the music scene, and visibility in culture outside your niche.
captainkidd
Well-Known Member
Uh-huh.
captainkidd
Well-Known Member
The Stones are more of a novelty act. They release a new album once a decade, but that's about it. Celine Dion? I don't recall her releasing anything new in many years. Wasn't she just playing in Vegas only? AC/DC I would agree with. But I think with them it's also somewhat like the Stones. They release new music so infrequently. If anything, one complaint in the Bon Jovi fan community is they've released too much new material over the past 12 years. Since 2000, they've had 5 studio albums, a box set and a Greatest Hits album. I'm OK with it, but some think it's pushing it. Bruce is a lot like Bon Jovi. He tends to release new music pretty often and tours quite a bit. But see I like him too, so I hear about him as well. Not nearly as much as Bon Jovi, but that's because he doesn't promote himself the way Jon promotes the band.
Oh, U2, though I'm not a huge fan of is certainly a band that has maintained it's popularity throughout it's career.
The main point you and I disagree on is the new fans thing. Having seen this band over 50 times over 25 years, I've grown up with the audience. The majority with no doubt, are people my age. However, there are many people older than me that are always at the shows, as well as people young enough to be my kids at the show.
I think you would be hard pressed to find any living artists that are active that cross generations gaps the way you are describing. The Beatles certainly, but they're not active. Elvis, but same rules apply. Then you've got bands like Pink Floyd or Zeppelin where teenagers wear t-shirts of the bands, but couldn't name 2 of their songs.
flynnibus
Premium Member
Acts like the Stones defy the laws of the universe. Its astounding to think they can remain global gods over so many different eras of sound and musical preference. While some music is revered as just 'timeless', the stones have tracks like that but have been able to create songs that go along with all the different eras..
Be it the teen bopper late 50s/early 60s
The socially conflicted late 60s
The gaudy 70s..
The punk influenced 80s..
The electric scene of the mid-80s on..
The grunge influenced 90s..
Throughout all those periods they were able to create music that resonated not just with their existing fans, but new fans as well. And tracks that decades later are still admired and don't seem trapped in a different era.
Compare that to say The Who.. who while they have managed to stay visible for so long.. they really flat lined with new music back in the 70s. Where as the Stones were still able to create new fans and new hits through the 80s and 90s. I think bands like the The Who and Aerosmith are examples that really make the Stones stand out above the crowd. It's not just longevity, but their adapting and relevance along the way.
The Beatles showed such variety and adaptive ability as well given their start, but alas they were so short lived. The mind boggling part of the Beatles is that they accomplished so much, in so little time.
Be it the teen bopper late 50s/early 60s
The socially conflicted late 60s
The gaudy 70s..
The punk influenced 80s..
The electric scene of the mid-80s on..
The grunge influenced 90s..
Throughout all those periods they were able to create music that resonated not just with their existing fans, but new fans as well. And tracks that decades later are still admired and don't seem trapped in a different era.
Compare that to say The Who.. who while they have managed to stay visible for so long.. they really flat lined with new music back in the 70s. Where as the Stones were still able to create new fans and new hits through the 80s and 90s. I think bands like the The Who and Aerosmith are examples that really make the Stones stand out above the crowd. It's not just longevity, but their adapting and relevance along the way.
The Beatles showed such variety and adaptive ability as well given their start, but alas they were so short lived. The mind boggling part of the Beatles is that they accomplished so much, in so little time.
flynnibus
Premium Member
And not that these lists are authorative.. but they give a view into other perspectives as well
VH1 top 100 artists of all time
http://stereogum.com/495331/vh1-100-greatest-artists-of-all-time/list/
older VH1 top 100 r&r artists of all time
http://www.rockonthenet.com/archive/1998/vh1artists.htm
They left Bon Jovi out both times...
VH1 top 100 artists of all time
http://stereogum.com/495331/vh1-100-greatest-artists-of-all-time/list/
older VH1 top 100 r&r artists of all time
http://www.rockonthenet.com/archive/1998/vh1artists.htm
They left Bon Jovi out both times...
captainkidd
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but I disagree about the Stones. The last hit single they had in the US was Mixed Emotions in 1989. Their last studio album was in 2005 and failed to sell 1 million copies. Bridges to Babylon sold just over 1 million copies. Voodoo Lounge was mildly successful in 1994, selling 2 million copies. Even Steel Wheels sold just 2 million copies in 1989, when albums still sold like hot cakes. Now again, sales aren't everything, but if you're talking about a band that has crossed generation gaps, you have to have done so by selling new music to SOMEBODY.
To be fair, the Stones have sold almost 200 million albums worldwide, an amazing number, but the majority of those came from 1962-1989.
To be fair, the Stones have sold almost 200 million albums worldwide, an amazing number, but the majority of those came from 1962-1989.
captainkidd
Well-Known Member
Bon Jovi is never going to be on a list like that. They're not a critics darling. Never have been. But if you take a look at a list voted on by the fans, such as this one, you'll find them there: http://www.the-top-tens.com/lists/greatest-rock-band-of-all-time.asp
However, of the groups on that list, only 8 artists have sold more albums than Bon Jovi.
So, is critical praise more important than success? Depends on your point of view.
Cool Biography Channel show that can give another perspective. FTR, this is about 6 years old.