News Reflections of Earth confirmed to be replaced by Harmonious

Casper Gutman

Well-Known Member
Could but won't. That conversation has been there for a while now and hasn't ever grown into the "larger movement" you mention.
I mean, it’s large enough to convince Comcast, a company every bit as greedy and soulless as Disney, that investing aggressively in their parks, maintaining a higher level of customer service, and challenging WDW head on is worth the investment.

WDW is as bad as it’s ever been and getting worse while Uni is as good as it’s ever been and getting better. Somewhere, there IS a breaking point. Is it close? Will both resorts keep to their current patterns long enough to hit it? Who knows. But we’re almost surely seeing a continual, if still relatively insignificant, shift right now. My guess is that by the time WDW admits they have a problem, they may be able to claw back some of the lost audience through massive investment, but the brand will be irrevocably sullied.
 

Sir_Cliff

Well-Known Member
I don't think most outsiders look at Disney as tacky in any way. If anything, in my opinion, those who don't intend to visit view it as unaffordable but the gold standard of family Instagram vacations. I think that guys with a Grumpy T shirt love the character they're playing, though I may resemble that remark.

My experience with people that have the money that have never been to a particular Disney Park and that Disney is salivating to capture just don't perceive the experience to be worth the money that they could spend on a trip to, say, another country for a vacation. They think that the parks are just something for small children and see it as an experience that would be unpleasant for them. I think these people see the advertising and perhaps went to some other amusement park and had a bad experience, so they expect all amusement parks to be mostly the same.
My impression is something of a mixture of these two. I do think there is a large group of people who could easily afford even the current prices who would simply never consider a WDW vacation and probably do see it as a somewhat tacky tourist trap. Their kids are probably having Italian or French vacations if they want to splurge, but they're also not going to consider Universal.

I do think, though, Disney still has a somewhat unique place in the culture that includes the perception that its theme parks are on a different level from its competitors. That's reflected in the notion a visit to DL or WDW is some kind of rite of passage, which is not something you hear about Universal Orlando. This, I think, helps them attract an audience that's more generally ambivalent to theme parks that I'm not sure Universal would be attracting on its own.

I think this is a real issue with things like the Harmonious barges and, perhaps to a lesser extent, the Guardians show building. If people show up and are greeted by concrete and steel painted brown as "Polynesian" theming at their super expensive resort, then take a monorail to Epcot and find ugly show equipment sitting out all day in the middle of the park and a huge, barely concealed show building looming on the horizon, the difference and attention to detail Disney promotes and charges a premium for suddenly rings a little hollow. Any one of those things is not exactly going to ruin a vacation, but they can have a cumulative effect on perceptions of how premium an experience is being offered. I guess the question is whether such people still go home happy and say nice things about their vacation, or if they come back never to return telling everyone it was over-priced and not as good as they thought it would be.
 
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Vinnie Mac

Well-Known Member
WDW is as bad as it’s ever been and getting worse while Uni is as good as it’s ever been and getting better. Somewhere, there IS a breaking point. Is it close? Will both resorts keep to their current patterns long enough to hit it? Who knows. But we’re almost surely seeing a continual, if still relatively insignificant, shift right now. My guess is that by the time WDW admits they have a problem, they may be able to claw back some of the lost audience through massive investment, but the brand will be irrevocably sullied.
Think of this community as a bubble. The view of the parks is viewed through an extremely negative lens here but through a neutral lens elsewhere. What seems like a close call here is a far miss to almost everyone else who aren't theme park fanatics. The only mutually agreed point between this community and the GP is the price increases being bad but even then, the community makes a bigger deal out of it than the GP do. My point is, what the situation seems like to you will ultimately be different than the actual reality.
 

Casper Gutman

Well-Known Member
Think of this community as a bubble. The view of the parks is viewed through an extremely negative lens here but through a neutral lens elsewhere. What seems like a close call here is a far miss to almost everyone else who aren't theme park fanatics. The only mutually agreed point between this community and the GP is the price increases being bad but even then, the community makes a bigger deal out of it than the GP do. My point is, what the situation seems like to you will ultimately be different than the actual reality.
People aren’t stupid. They notice the absurdly skyrocketing prices (these are NOT small increases), the dramatically declining service and understaffing, things like the lack of trams (standard at any local park) and regular housekeeping, the unforgivable state of EPCOT. These are not minor, inside baseball issues. Compared to fans, the general public is also far less dedicated to the brand and less willing to scramble for any tenuous excuse to explain Disney’s decline.

At some point it boils down to this: if people are having a better experience at Uni then at WDW, and they tell other people about that, things shift. ESPECIALLY if Universal is doing something prominent and showy to get in the news, like opening a massive new theme park complex.
 

ImperfectPixie

Well-Known Member
People aren’t stupid. They notice the absurdly skyrocketing prices (these are NOT small increases), the dramatically declining service and understaffing, things like the lack of trams (standard at any local park) and regular housekeeping, the unforgivable state of EPCOT. These are not minor, inside baseball issues. Compared to fans, the general public is also far less dedicated to the brand and less willing to scramble for any tenuous excuse to explain Disney’s decline.

At some point it boils down to this: if people are having a better experience at Uni then at WDW, and they tell other people about that, things shift. ESPECIALLY if Universal is doing something prominent and showy to get in the news, like opening a massive new theme park complex.
Let's not forget that one of the things that used to pleasantly surprise new guests was the level of service and additional entertainment and activities at the Disney parks and resorts. Those just aren't there anymore.
 

BasiltheBatLord

Well-Known Member
It is absolutely true that the vast majority (95% or more) of Disney park guests don't care about any of the stuff we argue about here. However, I think the increasing necessity of smartphones, apps and pre-planning required for Disney vacations is a serious mistake on Disney's part which is going to hurt them in the near-future with the average park goer.
 

TheEPCOTHistorian

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
It is absolutely true that the vast majority (95% or more) of Disney park guests don't care about any of the stuff we argue about here. However, I think the increasing necessity of smartphones, apps and pre-planning required for Disney vacations is a serious mistake on Disney's part which is going to hurt them in the near-future with the average park goer.
We're going to hit a hard reset in terms of Disneg's operations and guest expectations. Guests will grow tired of the new systems and not return, and existing fans will fizzle out. That will leave a new group of unexperienced guests and a small group of existing fans.
 

pdude81

Well-Known Member
Do you have a relationship with Touring Plans? I can understand a different perspective if that's been your experience, but anecdotally, I've encountered many people who view it as just some expensive place that they're supposed to take their kids. Even the prevalence of the tacky family t-shirts reflects that mindset I believe.

It appears that Disney leadership sees things this way as well, as their obsession with IP implementation and making the parks "more Disney" reflects the mind-set of a consumer that they're trying to reach. People impressed simply by the presence of an identifiable character rather than the quality that once defined Disney attractions only reinforces the notion that this is a place targeting children exclusively. Even marketing for Avenger's Campus and the Galactic Starcruiser is focused on elementary aged children, yet I would guess that the majority of Marvel and Star Wars fans are likely adults.

I'm fully open to having my view changed and I acknowledge that my view is likely shaped by the social circles I belong to, but I feel that I continue to see anecdotal sentiments that reinforce what I've been saying. I'm unsure if the mentioning of YouTube is a dig at me, but I often get viewers who attack me for being too critical because their children enjoy it, dismissing any analytical criticism in favor of the feelings of their 5 year old.
Relationship? Sure I have a relationship as a paying customer. There used to only be one way to find "hacks" to optimize your vacation.
If you'd said people thought it was kind of bougie to take their kids to Disney world then fine, but you said tacky. Perhaps my understanding of the term is off but I look at tacky as being something cheap and junky dressed up to look nice. While that may be in fact what the experience is, but that doesn't match common perception.

You initially disputed that we're a vocal minority here. You said the majority of people going to Disney see it as a bucket list item to check off, and suggested they won't keep coming if fans like us start complaining. Then you claim the majority of outsiders (assumed not internal forum minority) view Disney as a tacky place to take their kids. At best, if you have that viewpoint, I think it's clouded by your circle of friends. In the group of castle haters with grumpy shirts are other with shirts that say best day ever, prince/princess, etc. None of the things they are doing now are really that new or surprising, other than closing down shows and managing guest mix with park reservations. If princesses, IP vomit, and churros were a problem then it's a great problem to have.

Now again, there certainly are a lot more people checking out Universal, myself included, to see what the difference is. There is a ton of chatter regarding people selling their DVC points, buying Uni passes cause they can't get WDW ones, and saying the hotels are not worth it anymore. Yet at the same time, there is little to no availability at WDW hotels while people manage to find rooms at Portofino with a days notice and that gets them unlimited express pass.

As far as youtube goes, I truly was just saying that people now go to youtube for reviews and tips these days where in the past you got a Florida book from AAA or used Unofficial Guide/TP to try to figure things out. If you have a youtube following for Disney commentary then that is news to me (no offense intended).

More or less, I just disagree. Sure there is a real risk if negative sentiment continues, but they control the levers of power and after this reset (cost/expectations), I don't think wouldn't take much of a softening in stance for a sea of fluff pieces to turn the tide. The problem that can't be fixed by policy changes is they continue to underbuild and Epic Universe is poised to eat their lunch in a few summers.
 

pdude81

Well-Known Member
My impression is something of a mixture of these two. I do think there is a large group of people who could easily afford even the current prices who would simply never consider a WDW vacation and probably do see it as a somewhat tacky tourist trap. Their kids are probably having Italian or French vacations if they want to splurge, but they're also not going to consider Universal.

I do think, though, Disney still has a somewhat unique place in the culture that includes the perception that its theme parks are on a different level from its competitors. That's reflected in the notion a visit to DL or WDW is some kind of rite of passage, which is not something you hear about Universal Orlando. This, I think, helps them attract an audience that's more generally ambivalent to theme parks that I'm not sure Universal would be attracting on its own.

I think this is a real issue with things like the Harmonious barges and, perhaps to a lesser extent, the Guardians show building. If people show up and are greeted by concrete and steel painted brown as "Polynesian" theming at their super expensive resort, then take a monorail to Epcot and find ugly show equipment sitting out all day in the middle of the park and a huge, barely concealed show building looming on the horizon, the difference and attention to detail Disney promotes and charges a premium for suddenly rings a little hollow. Any one of those things is not exactly going to ruin a vacation, but they can have a cumulative effect on perceptions of how premium an experience is being offered. I guess the question is whether such people still go home happy and say nice things about their vacation, or if they come back never to return telling everyone it was over-priced and not as good as they thought it would be.

Some of the refurb at the Polynesian is a little weird, and I feared the worst following along with that thread, but I was there last month and I believe the front entrance is beautiful. The weird balls hanging out near the car port make no sense to me, but the rest of it was cool IMO. Now those barges in WSL there is no excuse for. The most positive thing I can say about those is that they aren't horrible when lit up and functioning correctly during the show.

As you said, the takeaway is the mystery, right? Do most go home and say man that was expensive, but a good trip? Or do they say damn that sucked?
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
Some of the refurb at the Polynesian is a little weird, and I feared the worst following along with that thread, but I was there last month and I believe the front entrance is beautiful. The weird balls hanging out near the car port make no sense to me, but the rest of it was cool IMO. Now those barges in WSL there is no excuse for. The most positive thing I can say about those is that they aren't horrible when lit up and functioning correctly during the show.

As you said, the takeaway is the mystery, right? Do most go home and say man that was expensive, but a good trip? Or do they say damn that sucked?

It's not really about whether it looks nice -- it does look nice, at least to an extent -- but a decline in the overall theming quality. They didn't bother to make it look like real wood; they just painted industrial materials brown. I'm sure it's not that noticeable to people just passing through to check-in etc., but taking care of that kind of detail work is what used to set Disney apart from other places.
 

TheEPCOTHistorian

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
So, bringing this back on the rails, this was Magic Kingdom FIVE MINUTES before Enchantment. The park is slammed. Little Mermaid and People Mover are over 40 minutes. Space is 85. Enchantment isnt a success either.

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James Alucobond

Well-Known Member
So, bringing this back on the rails, this was Magic Kingdom FIVE MINUTES before Enchantment. The park is slammed. Little Mermaid and People Mover are over 40 minutes. Space is 85. Enchantment isnt a success either.
I kind of wonder how much of a contributing factor Genie+ is. Like, if people are trying to get their money's worth out of it and are continually being recommended attractions with times scheduled during Enchantment, how likely are they to skip the show? Also, is Little Mermaid legitimately slammed? That attraction in particular always seems to have weirdly inaccurate wait times compared to other attractions, almost as if they're estimating the time it would take you to move through the empty queue after a molasses flood.
 

SplashJacket

Well-Known Member
Will the recent changes push away the long-time diehard fans? I'll admit, I'm worn out.
To add some contrast, I'm the opposite currently. I'm more eager to go to Disney than ever before. I've had spectacular theme park experiences since the dawn of Covid, and have more trips in planning than ever before.

The majority of outsiders perceive Disney as just some tacky place to bring your kids. The fans know better, having helped elevate the popularity of WDW through word of mouth and their fervent devotion to the product. Yet, the company is doubling down on turning the place into exactly what people think it is, attempting to target the rich parents of the elementary school demographic and throwing dedicated theme park fans to the wayside. I suspect it's unsustainable despite their record profits, and we've seen a pretty significant shift in positive buzz towards Universal over the last year. Things may look good for them now, but how will poor word of mouth and a decline of "pent up demand" affect them over the next few years?
My professor took her family to Disney this past year for the first time. They absolutely loved it and are booked again for next year. They stayed at Poly (a hotel whose renovations received a tsunami of criticism) and are looking to stay at the Riviera for their next vacation due to the Skyliner access.

I mean, it’s large enough to convince Comcast, a company every bit as greedy and soulless as Disney, that investing aggressively in their parks, maintaining a higher level of customer service, and challenging WDW head on is worth the investment.
I absolutely love Universal. I've previously been a UOAP holder, and plan to be again in the future, but if they're lacking in anything, it's their customer service. There are tens of thousands of wonderful employees working for Universal Orlando but, without fail, there always seems to be a few having a poor day. Obviously, that happens everywhere, Disney included, but I've noticed a much higher frequency of negative interactions at Universal Orlando. And I must add, for every one negative interaction, there are five positive, but regardless, from my perspective, Universal Orlando's customer service is substantially weaker when compared to WDW.

Universal's investments are a wonderful thing for Disney fans because we can enjoy them. We can take a day, or an entire trip to Universal and enjoy ourselves, but it also forces Disney to invest. There's a limit to how much Disney can raise prices, but currently, the demand far outweighs the supply. In the short term, they should increase prices. In the long term, if demand falters, they can offer more economical promotions.

I believe that the majority of tourists visiting WDW perceive it as some sort of cultural milestone, something that they need to check off of their list for things that make them feel accomplished in life.

  • Graduate highschool
  • Go to college
  • Get into a decent profession
  • Get married
  • Have kids
  • Take kids to Walt Disney World
Making Disney more expensive likely magnifies the milestone aspect. The more expensive Disney becomes the greater commitment is needed to cross that barrier. It'll be too big an obstacle for most, but so is buying a Lamborghini. Ask most college-aged males and they'd tell you they dream of purchasing a sports car, but fast-forward twenty years and only a minute margin has, which makes the novelty and status of owning a Lamborghini that much greater. Products like Apple AirPods, are objectively comparable to products a third of their price, but they still carry massive demand because of the status and brand association carried with them. Disney doesn't need to provide a premium product to charge premium prices while granting people the status they desire.

The main issue with purposefully lowering attendance through price increases is a lack of brainwashing. My mom grew up going to Disneyland in its first years of operations. She loves Disney. I grew up going to all the WDW parks. I love Disney. In an ideal world, Disney's parks would have sufficient capacity to completely match their demand while delivering an enjoyable product, but that's impossible. But people are still going to the parks, so there will still be kids (like myself) that are brainwashed to the Disney brand, so it's only a minor hit, especially when you consider the kids going now, are on average, more affluent than the kids that, on average, would be going if demand was met perfectly by supply. And on average, wealthier children will grow up to be wealthier, and in turn, will bring their wealthier kids to Disney while leveraging deeper pockets.

All in all, the long-term impact on the Disney brand by price increases is likely very minor, especially with Disney products, like Disney+ reaching previously unexposed or underexposed audiences.
 

ImperfectPixie

Well-Known Member
To add some contrast, I'm the opposite currently. I'm more eager to go to Disney than ever before. I've had spectacular theme park experiences since the dawn of Covid, and have more trips in planning than ever before.


My professor took her family to Disney this past year for the first time. They absolutely loved it and are booked again for next year. They stayed at Poly (a hotel whose renovations received a tsunami of criticism) and are looking to stay at the Riviera for their next vacation due to the Skyliner access.


I absolutely love Universal. I've previously been a UOAP holder, and plan to be again in the future, but if they're lacking in anything, it's their customer service. There are tens of thousands of wonderful employees working for Universal Orlando but, without fail, there always seems to be a few having a poor day. Obviously, that happens everywhere, Disney included, but I've noticed a much higher frequency of negative interactions at Universal Orlando. And I must add, for every one negative interaction, there are five positive, but regardless, from my perspective, Universal Orlando's customer service is substantially weaker when compared to WDW.

Universal's investments are a wonderful thing for Disney fans because we can enjoy them. We can take a day, or an entire trip to Universal and enjoy ourselves, but it also forces Disney to invest. There's a limit to how much Disney can raise prices, but currently, the demand far outweighs the supply. In the short term, they should increase prices. In the long term, if demand falters, they can offer more economical promotions.


Making Disney more expensive likely magnifies the milestone aspect. The more expensive Disney becomes the greater commitment is needed to cross that barrier. It'll be too big an obstacle for most, but so is buying a Lamborghini. Ask most college-aged males and they'd tell you they dream of purchasing a sports car, but fast-forward twenty years and only a minute margin has, which makes the novelty and status of owning a Lamborghini that much greater. Products like Apple AirPods, are objectively comparable to products a third of their price, but they still carry massive demand because of the status and brand association carried with them. Disney doesn't need to provide a premium product to charge premium prices while granting people the status they desire.

The main issue with purposefully lowering attendance through price increases is a lack of brainwashing. My mom grew up going to Disneyland in its first years of operations. She loves Disney. I grew up going to all the WDW parks. I love Disney. In an ideal world, Disney's parks would have sufficient capacity to completely match their demand while delivering an enjoyable product, but that's impossible. But people are still going to the parks, so there will still be kids (like myself) that are brainwashed to the Disney brand, so it's only a minor hit, especially when you consider the kids going now, are on average, more affluent than the kids that, on average, would be going if demand was met perfectly by supply. And on average, wealthier children will grow up to be wealthier, and in turn, will bring their wealthier kids to Disney while leveraging deeper pockets.

All in all, the long-term impact on the Disney brand by price increases is likely very minor, especially with Disney products, like Disney+ reaching previously unexposed or underexposed audiences.
Not likely when you add into the equation the ongoing erosion of the service and quality that used to accompany the Disney brand.
 

SplashJacket

Well-Known Member
Not likely when you add into the equation the ongoing erosion of the service and quality that used to accompany the Disney brand.
In some regards, like the current lack of housekeeping or the oil rigs, quality has undeniably diminished, whereas in other aspects, like Rise or BatB on the Disney Dream (Cruise Ship), quality is at a height never previously explored.
 

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