EPCOT Reflections of Earth confirmed to be replaced by Harmonious

[pdude81]

Help me understand this better (bolded) my problem with how this is projected in the market, analyst views etc- does not account for HOW this was achieved. Disney believes pricing power they currently have is superior. Ok, I get that but...

Dont staff the parks- no overhead- bare bones labor, non-existent house-keeping services, closed resorts (some) entertainment offerings slim
Charge extra for Genie services- run out of capacity because they have none, which creates longer lines, multiple ride downtimes
Merch- some good-most horrible quality
Im sure there is much more that can be added to the list

I doubt long term this is sustainable. The few rides that will open shortly wont add capacity either, it will just shift the popularity.

So how is the pricing power superior?

It isn't sustainable forever. Eventually they'll need to increase staffing and offerings to capture more people. This is a hard reset in expectations and cost at an opportune time for the mouse. Now if they choose to soften things up or improve the guest experience in the coming months it will be met with rave reviews from the blogoshere.

 

[Rickcat96]

It isn't sustainable forever. Eventually they'll need to increase staffing and offerings to capture more people. This is a hard reset in expectations and cost at an opportune time for the mouse. Now if they choose to soften things up or improve the guest experience in the coming months it will be met with rave reviews from the blogoshere.

This helps, thanks

 

[MisterPenguin]

Help me understand this better (bolded) my problem with how this is projected in the market, analyst views etc- does not account for HOW this was achieved. Disney believes pricing power they currently have is superior. Ok, I get that but...

Don't staff the parks- no overhead- bare bones labor, non-existent house-keeping services, closed resorts (some) entertainment offerings slim, food and beverage is a joke.
Charge extra for Genie services- run out of capacity because they have none, which creates longer lines, multiple ride downtimes
Merch- some good-most horrible quality
Im sure there is much more that can be added to the list

I doubt long term this is sustainable. The few rides that will open shortly wont add capacity either, it will just shift the popularity.

So how is the pricing power superior?

1. Overall prices have gone up for everything: tickets, rooms, food. That ain't coming back down.

2. Fastpasses were free, Genie Lightning Lane isn't. For 30% - 50% of guests every day, they self-increased the cost of their ticket by adding on Genie+.

3. APs represent a discount to your ticket if you go enough times. By limiting APs, they forced people who would ordinarily have had an AP discount to pay full price for their ticket.

4. The one thing that isn't sustainable is the lack of 'free' entertainment. But, that is a function of a lack of employees. When they get back to full employment, they will have more expense with more entertainment, but, they'll also be able to raise park capacity and get more profit from point-of-sale venues, such as restaurants.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

It isn't sustainable forever. Eventually they'll need to increase staffing and offerings to capture more people. This is a hard reset in expectations and cost at an opportune time for the mouse. Now if they choose to soften things up or improve the guest experience in the coming months it will be met with rave reviews from the blogoshere.

This is exactly my take based on everything we've seen and heard since 2020. Chapek almost directly said that was what they were doing in regard to how resetting the Disneyland AP program would have been "heresy" before the pandemic but now they had the opportunity to do such things. I think you can extend that to paid Fastpass, getting rid of DME, park reservations, and other things.

I've honestly struggled to grasp how fans are reacting to what seem to have been very good results for the parks in the latest quarterly reports. It seems there are a lot of variations on predicting failure and calling Chapek a liar and fraud. The results seem to show, though, that this hard reset is actually going probably as well as it could have and internally you'd think they would feel vindicated. To be clear, I hate all of these new developments, but I'm not going to kid myself.

 

[Brer Oswald]

1. Overall prices have gone up for everything: tickets, rooms, food. That ain't coming back down.

2. Fastpasses were free, Genie Lightning Lane isn't. For 30% - 50% of guests every day, they self-increased the cost of their ticket by adding on Genie+.

3. APs represent a discount to your ticket if you go enough times. By limiting APs, they forced people who would ordinarily have had an AP discount to pay full price for their ticket.

4. The one thing that isn't sustainable is the lack of 'free' entertainment. But, that is a function of a lack of employees. When they get back to full employment, they will have more expense with more entertainment, but, they'll also be able to raise park capacity and get more profit from point-of-sale venues, such as restaurants.

I think the more likely reason for the increase in quarterly spending is due to the amount of T Shirts I bought.



But really, it’s what you said. Paid FastPass, increase in food prices, and to top it off, more people taking Christmas vacations than the previous year (greater pool of people that haven’t been in awhile, spending more, as opposed to people that live not too far away).

 

[pdude81]

This is exactly my take based on everything we've seen and heard since 2020. Chapek almost directly said that was what they were doing in regard to how resetting the Disneyland AP program would have been "heresy" before the pandemic but now they had the opportunity to do such things. I think you can extend that to paid Fastpass, getting rid of DME, park reservations, and other things.

I've honestly struggled to grasp how fans are reacting to what seem to have been very good results for the parks in the latest quarterly reports. It seems there are a lot of variations on predicting failure and calling Chapek a liar and fraud. The results seem to show, though, that this hard reset is actually going probably as well as it could have and internally you'd think they would feel vindicated. To be clear, I hate all of these new developments, but I'm not going to kid myself.

Agreed 100%. There is nothing thus far that indicates it's the wrong strategy in the short term. In the long term I guess we'll see. Lots of chatter online about people not coming back, but if that is true then many are waiting to take their place.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

Agreed 100%. There is nothing thus far that indicates it's the wrong strategy in the short term. In the long term I guess we'll see. Lots of chatter online about people not coming back, but if that is true then many are waiting to take their place.

Really seems to be the case. I struggle to understand how people will swallow a lot of this stuff in the longer term, but then I feel like we've been saying like this cutback or this price rise was a bridge too far for years and, with some exceptions, it never has been. At this point I kind of give up trying to predict what the market will or won't bear.

 

[Mac Tonight]

Disney knows what they're doing. They know that their product is still good enough that things like, increasing prices here and there, or cutting a benefit here and there, won't really impact them in the long run. For every one person or family that has "had enough" with Disney, there are probably 4-5 other people/families ready and willing to make up the difference.

I think it's very easy on here to forget that we make up a small percentage of Disney's actual customer base. We may be the most vocal in our disdain for things we don't like, but we're just small fish in a global pond.

 

[Poseidon Quest]

I think it's very easy on here to forget that we make up a small percentage of Disney's actual customer base. We may be the most vocal in our disdain for things we don't like, but we're just small fish in a global pond.

I personally believe that you're underestimating the importance that the fans have had on the parks. They've complained throughout the decades about price increases, but it never reached a point where they stopped recommending Disney to their friends and family.

I believe that the majority of tourists visiting WDW perceive it as some sort of cultural milestone, something that they need to check off of their list for things that make them feel accomplished in life.

• Graduate highschool
• Go to college
• Get into a decent profession
• Get married
• Have kids
• Take kids to Walt Disney World

If these people, who know next to nothing about the parks are being told that it's a waste of money and that they shouldn't go, will they still consider it worth their suburban cash?

The majority of outsiders perceive Disney as just some tacky place to bring your kids. The fans know better, having helped elevate the popularity of WDW through word of mouth and their fervent devotion to the product. Yet, the company is doubling down on turning the place into exactly what people think it is, attempting to target the rich parents of the elementary school demographic and throwing dedicated theme park fans to the wayside. I suspect it's unsustainable despite their record profits, and we've seen a pretty significant shift in positive buzz towards Universal over the last year. Things may look good for them now, but how will poor word of mouth and a decline of "pent up demand" affect them over the next few years?

 

[pdude81]

The majority of outsiders perceive Disney as just some tacky place to bring your kids.

Please elaborate

 

[Poseidon Quest]

Please elaborate

Princesses, character IP throw-up and churros.

You don't think it's true? The existence of the Grumpy t-shirts for grandfathers who have their masculinity threatened by the sight of Cinderella Castle might attest to my point.

 

[Mac Tonight]

I personally believe that you're underestimating the importance that the fans have had on the parks. They've complained throughout the decades about price increases, but it never reached a point where they stopped recommending Disney to their friends and family.

I believe that the majority of tourists visiting WDW perceive it as some sort of cultural milestone, something that they need to check off of their list for things that make them feel accomplished in life.

• Graduate highschool
• Go to college
• Get into a decent profession
• Get married
• Have kids
• Take kids to Walt Disney World

If these people, who know next to nothing about the parks are being told that it's a waste of money and that they shouldn't go, will they still consider it worth their suburban cash?

The majority of outsiders perceive Disney as just some tacky place to bring your kids. The fans know better, having helped elevate the popularity of WDW through word of mouth and their fervent devotion to the product. Yet, the company is doubling down on turning the place into exactly what people think it is, attempting to target the rich parents of the elementary school demographic and throwing dedicated theme park fans to the wayside. I suspect it's unsustainable despite their record profits, and we've seen a pretty significant shift in positive buzz towards Universal over the last year. Things may look good for them now, but how will poor word of mouth and a decline of "pent up demand" affect them over the next few years?

I mean, I'm not really sure how you quantify a "positive buzz towards Universal" over Disney parks, but if you have any data, I'd be curious to take a look.

Not saying us fans can't or don't influence our "circles" to possibly steer away them from Disney, but again, not everyone has the same attachments to Disney that we do and what is "worth the money" to everyone varies greatly. I've personally never been consulted by someone trying to decide between a Disney World vacation or going to, say, The Bahamas.

At the end of the day though, I still think there are more people willing to spend their money on the parks than not.

 

[Poseidon Quest]

I mean, I'm not really sure how you quantify a "positive buzz towards Universal" over Disney parks, but if you have any data, I'd be curious to take a look.

Not saying us fans can't or don't influence our "circles" to possibly steer away them from Disney, but again, not everyone has the same attachments to Disney that we do and what is "worth the money" to everyone varies greatly. I've personally never been consulted by someone trying to decide between a Disney World vacation or going to, say, The Bahamas.

At the end of the day though, I still think there are more people willing to spend their money on the parks than not.

I can't say that I have any data, but Disney communities online have been talking about Universal as a viable and more enjoyable alternative. It obviously hasn't influenced Disney's revenue stream, but the conversation is there and could continue to grow into a larger movement.

I was also interested to learn that Pete from the DIS made the claim in one of their podcasts that his travel agency was seeing an uptick in people booking with Universal rather than Disney. He never released those numbers to my knowledge, but it seemed significant enough to mention.

I also agree that there are plenty of people willing to pay a large sum of money to vacation at WDW, but I'm skeptical that they can remain a reliable market. So many reoccurring visitors are leaving with poor experiences, and newcomers are hearing a pretty negative narrative. I think that we'll see a pretty significant shift start to occur in a few years.

 

[pdude81]

Princesses, character IP throw-up and churros.

You don't think it's true? The existence of the Grumpy t-shirts for grandfathers who have their masculinity threatened by the sight of Cinderella Castle might attest to my point.

I don't think most outsiders look at Disney as tacky in any way. If anything, in my opinion, those who don't intend to visit view it as unaffordable but the gold standard of family Instagram vacations. I think that guys with a Grumpy T shirt love the character they're playing, though I may resemble that remark.

There is a real chance that the group think negativity on youtube reviews takes a toll, as people use social media for research nowadays instead of places like Touring Plans that will truly help them have a better experience. I just don't expect that has taken hold yet.

 

[Poseidon Quest]

I don't think most outsiders look at Disney as tacky in any way. If anything, in my opinion, those who don't intend to visit view it as unaffordable but the gold standard of family Instagram vacations. I think that guys with a Grumpy T shirt love the character they're playing, though I may resemble that remark.

There is a real chance that the group think negativity on youtube reviews takes a toll, as people use social media for research nowadays instead of places like Touring Plans that will truly help them have a better experience. I just don't expect that has taken hold yet.

Do you have a relationship with Touring Plans? I can understand a different perspective if that's been your experience, but anecdotally, I've encountered many people who view it as just some expensive place that they're supposed to take their kids. Even the prevalence of the tacky family t-shirts reflects that mindset I believe.

It appears that Disney leadership sees things this way as well, as their obsession with IP implementation and making the parks "more Disney" reflects the mind-set of a consumer that they're trying to reach. People impressed simply by the presence of an identifiable character rather than the quality that once defined Disney attractions only reinforces the notion that this is a place targeting children exclusively. Even marketing for Avenger's Campus and the Galactic Starcruiser is focused on elementary aged children, yet I would guess that the majority of Marvel and Star Wars fans are likely adults.

I'm fully open to having my view changed and I acknowledge that my view is likely shaped by the social circles I belong to, but I feel that I continue to see anecdotal sentiments that reinforce what I've been saying. I'm unsure if the mentioning of YouTube is a dig at me, but I often get viewers who attack me for being too critical because their children enjoy it, dismissing any analytical criticism in favor of the feelings of their 5 year old.

 

[Vinnie Mac]

Well I, for one, liked the idea.

Like this is supposed to make the idea anymore valid? Everyone has opinions. I don't see the point in downgrading to a show with just fountains.

 

[Vinnie Mac]

but the conversation is there and could continue to grow into a larger movement.

Could but won't. That conversation has been there for a while now and hasn't ever grown into the "larger movement" you mention.

 

[DoleWhipDrea]

I love it when people think they have a better idea for something and then it just ends up sounding even worse.

Well I, for one, liked the idea. It can all be hidden when needed and used both day and night.

Like this is supposed to make the idea anymore valid? Everyone has opinions. I don't see the point in downgrading to a show with just fountains.

Yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion and sharing their thoughts here. It's a forum where people share opinions and ideas.

Instead of engaging in a polite way, you decided to be rude towards another user, and someone else stepped in to support them. If you want people here to engage with you, communicate in a more thoughtful manner.

 

[DoleWhipDrea]

My experience with people that have the money that have never been to a particular Disney Park and that Disney is salivating to capture just don't perceive the experience to be worth the money that they could spend on a trip to, say, another country for a vacation. They think that the parks are just something for small children and see it as an experience that would be unpleasant for them. I think these people see the advertising and perhaps went to some other amusement park and had a bad experience, so they expect all amusement parks to be mostly the same.

Will the recent changes push away the long-time diehard fans? I'll admit, I'm worn out. I have an AP at WDW and went to DLR over the holidays with family and Genie+, LL, poor upkeep, unmanageable crowds and ridiculous wait times have really soured my feelings over the past few months, and I struggle with the idea of renewing my pass and/or returning. I used to tell my family and friends how wonderful these parks were, but now...not so much.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Could but won't. That conversation has been there for a while now and hasn't ever grown into the "larger movement" you mention.

I mean, it’s large enough to convince Comcast, a company every bit as greedy and soulless as Disney, that investing aggressively in their parks, maintaining a higher level of customer service, and challenging WDW head on is worth the investment.

WDW is as bad as it’s ever been and getting worse while Uni is as good as it’s ever been and getting better. Somewhere, there IS a breaking point. Is it close? Will both resorts keep to their current patterns long enough to hit it? Who knows. But we’re almost surely seeing a continual, if still relatively insignificant, shift right now. My guess is that by the time WDW admits they have a problem, they may be able to claw back some of the lost audience through massive investment, but the brand will be irrevocably sullied.