News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

[LAKid53]

The school districts here comprise entire counties, several of which have seven digit populations

Yup.

 

[mkt]

From the FL Department of Economic Opportunity.

View attachment 713587

I’m always right about number two

 

[hopemax]

I still think it’s shocking the business community, the tourism community, and the theme park community have not spoken out at all about what has been happening. If the entire community rallied around Disney, it would send a very powerful message to Tallahassee. And frankly they should, the precedent being set can impact them one day.

I think this goes to the greater point of how humans operate, and are more risk adverse than we realize. Don’t stick *your* neck out unless you have to. Which means we frequently reach crisis states before actions are taken. Everyone thinks being proactive is good, standing up for what’s right is good, until it’s time, and then it becomes a game of chicken of “but do I have to, won’t someone else if it’s really that important? Like with Covid, when the NBA pulled the plug then a whole lot of organizations followed. No one wanted to be first and potentially be on an island alone. Everyone spends a lot of time looking for action from someone else.

I’d bet the calculation is what most people think… that they can just “wait it out.” The courts will rule in Disney’s favor, DeSantis will move on to whatever, this was a one-time weapon and the legislature doesn’t really want to be anti business / anti tourism, so don’t rock the boat unnecessarily.

If the state prevails, and does it again, and again… Then it might be elevated to crisis state and worth fighting. But it’s not easy or cheap to relocate business, so then again what’s a little chilled speech among “partners” anyway.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

The school districts here comprise entire counties, several of which have seven digit populations

I understand that. I wasn't saying "wow, I wonder why the school districts are so big, it's such a mystery." I'm saying "what a crappy system, this is terrible for parents and students."

Ted Cruz wasn't governor of the state of Texas. I'm specifically referring to the CEO of the state.

When the largest city in your state is on fire, when the fire department will no longer respond to burning buildings because they are being shot at, you'd better damn well get your rear back and handle it.

Maybe in 1965, but we have 50 years of technology behind us between now and then. Someone's PHYSICAL presence in a place has absolutely not bearing on their ability to direct the administration thereof.

 

[mkt]

I understand that. I wasn't saying "wow, I wonder why the school districts are so big, it's such a mystery." I'm saying "what a crappy system, this is terrible for parents and students."

I agree entirely, and it’s only getting worse. The primary reason we are leaving the state of Florida is for better schools.

 

[Stripes]

That's not how precedent works.

I’d love to see a source for that interpretation.

Regardless, let’s put it another way. If the court finds that Disney’s allegations of retaliation, given the extensive amount of evidence to support them, are not sufficiently substantiated, such a finding would be very harmful to the future of this country.

 

[flynnibus]

In the far NE state of Wisconsin our schools are controlled at the municipal level. Ditto Ohio, Indiana, Iowa and Illinois. So it’s not just the NE, Midwest too.

Wisconsin - https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/mi...n/ib_school_district_governance_eh_2021_02_15

"Wisconsin public school districts are classified as one of the following: common school districts, union high school districts, unified school districts, or first-class city districts. Wisconsin has a total of 421 public school districts: 365 common school districts (of which 322 serve grades K-12 and 43 serve grades K-8), 45 unified school districts, 10 union high school districts, and one first-class city school district, Milwaukee Public Schools (MPS)."

Your school districts are not controlled at the municipal level (city, town,township) - they are independent elected bodies with their own taxing authority.

 

[Chi84]

That's not how precedent works.

Facts are not entirely irrelevant where precedent is concerned. Arguments on appeal will often center on how the facts in a specific case were sufficient or insufficient to support a particular interpretation or application of the law. There are pure issues of law where the facts don't matter and review will be de novo, with no deference to the fact-finder.

There are even times when a court can decide an issue of fact, if it determines that no reasonable person could find otherwise.

 

[Touchdown]

Wisconsin - https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/mi...n/ib_school_district_governance_eh_2021_02_15

"Wisconsin public school districts are classified as one of the following: common school districts, union high school districts, unified school districts, or first-class city districts. Wisconsin has a total of 421 public school districts: 365 common school districts (of which 322 serve grades K-12 and 43 serve grades K-8), 45 unified school districts, 10 union high school districts, and one first-class city school district, Milwaukee Public Schools (MPS)."

Your school districts are not controlled at the municipal level (city, town,township) - they are independent elected bodies with their own taxing authority.

And organized by cities essentially. I went to an Appleton Area School District, we had kids from one city and nearby towns too small to have their own schools. We didn’t organize them by county, that would be far too much.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I’d love to see a source for that interpretation.

It's not an interpretation, you're just not understanding what "precedent" means. Factual findings have NOTHING almost nothing to do with any other case besides the one being decided. OJ Simpson being acquitted did not establish precedent for future murder trials, it was confined to THAT jury and THAT trial and THAT fact pattern. It had no applicability elsewhere.

given the extensive amount of evidence to support them

The jury isn't going to be participating in message boards and reading every article that CNN puts out about this case. They're going to see the evidence presented at trial, and that's it.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Facts are not entirely irrelevant where precedent is concerned. Arguments on appeal will often center on how the facts in a specific case were sufficient or insufficient to support a particular interpretation or application of the law. There are pure issues of law where the facts don't matter and review will be de novo, with no deference to the fact-finder.

That's an extreme hurdle. I believe the standard is "clearly erroneous" for an appellate court to revisit the facts.

 

[Chi84]

That's an extreme hurdle. I believe the standard is "clearly erroneous" for an appellate court to revisit the facts.

I added to my previous post. Appellate courts are careful not to interfere with fact findings, but "clearly erroneous" is not what I would call an extreme hurdle.

 

[RamblinWreck]

I know, that's why I hate it. Unless you're super rural, counties are way too big to effectively manage schools. I strongly favor municipal control of education so that administrators are directly accountable to parents.

Counterpoint:

When it comes to US institutions that were set up to be discriminatory to poor people and minorities, our public school systems are the most stark remaining example. And the smaller the school system is, the easier it is to stick it to the poors.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Wisconsin - https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/mi...n/ib_school_district_governance_eh_2021_02_15

"Wisconsin public school districts are classified as one of the following: common school districts, union high school districts, unified school districts, or first-class city districts. Wisconsin has a total of 421 public school districts: 365 common school districts (of which 322 serve grades K-12 and 43 serve grades K-8), 45 unified school districts, 10 union high school districts, and one first-class city school district, Milwaukee Public Schools (MPS)."

Your school districts are not controlled at the municipal level (city, town,township) - they are independent elected bodies with their own taxing authority.

Connecticut has regional school districts too, in areas where the population isn't dense enough to support a dedicated high school for each municipality.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The jury isn't going to be participating in message boards and reading every article that CNN puts out about this case. They're going to see the evidence presented at trial, and that's it.

This wouldn’t be going to a jury and we know which facts will be presented because they have already been presented. If they are deemed irrelevant it will very much be a matter of law and precedent, because it’ll almost certain to be a decision that the motive doesn’t matter.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

When it comes to US institutions that were set up to be discriminatory to poor people and minorities, our public school systems are the most stark remaining example. And the smaller the school system is, the easier it is to stick it to the poors.

You haven't spent much time in New England have you? There aren't many minorities in rural New Hampshire no matter how you draw the lines.

 

[peter11435]

I’d love to see a source for that interpretation.

Regardless, let’s put it another way. If the court finds that Disney’s allegations of retaliation, given the extensive amount of evidence to support them, are not sufficiently substantiated, such a finding would be very harmful to the future of this country.

That’s just it. While it wouldn’t be a legal precedent for future judges to follow… it would be a precedent for future legislators to follow. It establishes a playbook for future legislators to use to chill speech and retaliate for speech they don’t like while skirting legal repercussions and responsibility.

 

[LAKid53]

Is that certain? What's the process in Florida, would both parties have to waive?

It's a federal civil trial. State court rules don't apply. Either side can ask for a jury, if entitled to one based on the nature of the claim.

 

[mikejs78]

There's an extremely important distinction that I think people are missing.

There are questions of fact and there are questions of law, and Disney could theoretically lose on either one.

Questions of fact are decided by juries in jury trials and by the judge in "bench trials." Questions of law are decided by the judge. Questions of law are what get appealed and decided by the appellate courts and SCOTUS. Appellate courts generally do not weigh in on the facts.

With regard to the First Amendment claims:

• The question of fact is whether DeSantis and the Florida legislature did pass this legislation to retaliate against Disney for their speech.
• The question of law is whether passing this law in retaliation against Disney for their speech is unconstitutional.

If Disney loses on the facts, this case will be entirely inconsequential for any other future cases. If they lose on the law (which they won't), then it would indeed be consequential.

Losing on the facts has nothing to do with "precedent."

Given the judge that is going to be hearing this case at the circuit level, I find it highly probable that Disney will win on both facts and law. Soni would expect a ruling fully in Disney's favor.

Where it is less certain is how it will be decided as a matter of law at the appellate level, and at the Supreme Court level, if it gets there. Personally I think it's a slam dunk on contract claims. I am less certain about the 1A claims, primarily because of the case law surrounding legislative intent. I still think there's a pretty good chance Disney prevails here, as it's been repeatedly stated to be retaliation by both the governor as well as numerous legislators.

Which I think is dumb no matter who's in charge or what the issue is.

Ted Cruz got raked over the coals for going on vacation when Texas had their power crisis a couple of years ago.

A politician's physical presence in a disaster area does nothing to make the disaster any better. If anything, it's a distraction and an unnecessary drain on resources to accommodate the media, security, logistics, etc.

I disagree when it comes to the governor of a state. The governor has a defined role when it comes to emergency management in almost every state (if not all). In FL in particular, the FL statues say "The Governor is responsible for meeting the dangers presented to this state and its people by emergencies."

 

[lazyboy97o]

Is that certain? What's the process in Florida, would both parties have to waive?

This isn’t a Florida case. When was the last time you heard of a federal court empaneling a jury to decide if a law is constitutional? The whole reason people have been talking about the judge that the case was assigned to is because the judge is who decides the outcome.