News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

[Stripes]

There's an extremely important distinction that I think people are missing.

There are questions of fact and there are questions of law, and Disney could theoretically lose on either one.

Questions of fact are decided by juries in jury trials and by the judge in "bench trials." Questions of law are decided by the judge. Questions of law are what get appealed and decided by the appellate courts and SCOTUS. Appellate courts generally do not weigh in on the facts.

With regard to the First Amendment claims:

• The question of fact is whether DeSantis and the Florida legislature did pass this legislation to retaliate against Disney for their speech.
• The question of law is whether passing this law in retaliation against Disney for their speech is unconstitutional.

If Disney loses on the facts, this case will be entirely inconsequential for any other future cases. If they lose on the law (which they won't), then it would indeed be consequential.

Losing on the facts has nothing to do with "precedent."

I believe that losing on the facts, in this case, would still set a precedent.

Never before has a governor and so many members of the legislature been so boastful, intentional, and public in their acts of retaliation.

In other words, if the court determines that Disney could not demonstrate that these laws were passed in retaliation for Disney’s free speech, then the court would essentially be giving legislatures across this nation license to retaliate against citizens and businesses for exercising a constitutional right.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I believe that losing on the facts, in this case, would still set a precedent.

Never before has a governor and so many members of the legislature been so boastful and intentional in their acts of retaliation.

In other words, if the court determines that Disney could not demonstrate that these laws were passed in retaliation for Disney’s free speech, then the court would essentially be giving legislatures across this nation license to retaliate against citizens and businesses for exercising a constitutional right.

That's not how precedent works.

 

[LAKid53]

I believe that losing on the facts, in this case, would still set a precedent.

Never before has a governor and so many members of the legislature been so boastful and intentional in their acts of retaliation.

In other words, if the court determines that Disney could not demonstrate that these laws were passed in retaliation for Disney’s free speech, then the court would essentially be giving legislatures across this nation license to retaliate against citizens and businesses for exercising a constitutional right.

When the governor and Legislature have boasted in press conferences and interviews that the legislation was to strip Disney of its "privilege" for speech, when floor discussion of the bills confirmed the same and the attorney general backed it up, I find it difficult that Disney would lose on fact. You can make all the comments about politicians making grand statements, but floor discussions have been used to determine legislative intent when a bill is unclear.

 

[flynnibus]

I know, that's why I hate it. Unless you're super rural, counties are way too big to effectively manage schools. I strongly favor municipal control of education so that administrators are directly accountable to parents.

Because you live in the only region of the country (NE) that has the idea of every little village is it's own town or township for dated historical reasons.

Meanwhile everywhere else has state delegated down to county or overlaid school districts.. or where there is big density, city, management of education.

The NE form of local government is dated and not applicable to the vast majority of the country.

 

[Touchdown]

Because you live in the only region of the country (NE) that has the idea of every little village is it's own town or township for dated historical reasons.

Meanwhile everywhere else has state delegated down to county or overlaid school districts.. or where there is big density, city, management of education.

The NE form of local government is dated and not applicable to the vast majority of the country.

In the far NE state of Wisconsin our schools are controlled at the municipal level. Ditto Ohio, Indiana, Iowa and Illinois. So it’s not just the NE, Midwest too.

 

[mkt]

Good lord the school districts in Florida are way too big.

My school district has 4 schools.

The school districts here comprise entire counties, several of which have seven digit populations

 

[LAKid53]

Which I think is dumb no matter who's in charge or what the issue is.

Ted Cruz got raked over the coals for going on vacation when Texas had their power crisis a couple of years ago.

A politician's physical presence in a disaster area does nothing to make the disaster any better. If anything, it's a distraction and an unnecessary drain on resources to accommodate the media, security, logistics, etc.

Ted Cruz wasn't governor of the state of Texas. I'm specifically referring to the CEO of the state.

When the largest city in your state is on fire, when the fire department will no longer respond to burning buildings because they are being shot at, you'd better damn well get your rear back and handle it.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Because you live in the only region of the country (NE) that has the idea of every little village is it's own town or township for dated historical reasons.

That's factually untrue. Villages are informal divisions that exist within incorporated municipalities, they're not the incorporated municipalities themselves.

Meanwhile everywhere else has state delegated down to county or overlaid school districts.. or where there is big density, city, management of education.

The NE form of local government is dated and not applicable to the vast majority of the country.

New Jersey is structured similarly. And depending on the ranking system, the top 5 states for public K-12 education in the country almost always include Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and New Jersey. So maybe we're doing something right.

But no you're right, we should go with massive school districts with superintendents who make $400,000 so we can save a few dollars by negotiating a unified contract with the bus company.

 

[LAKid53]

The school districts here comprise entire counties, several of which have seven digit populations

Yup.

 

[mkt]

From the FL Department of Economic Opportunity.

View attachment 713587

I’m always right about number two

 

[hopemax]

I still think it’s shocking the business community, the tourism community, and the theme park community have not spoken out at all about what has been happening. If the entire community rallied around Disney, it would send a very powerful message to Tallahassee. And frankly they should, the precedent being set can impact them one day.

I think this goes to the greater point of how humans operate, and are more risk adverse than we realize. Don’t stick *your* neck out unless you have to. Which means we frequently reach crisis states before actions are taken. Everyone thinks being proactive is good, standing up for what’s right is good, until it’s time, and then it becomes a game of chicken of “but do I have to, won’t someone else if it’s really that important? Like with Covid, when the NBA pulled the plug then a whole lot of organizations followed. No one wanted to be first and potentially be on an island alone. Everyone spends a lot of time looking for action from someone else.

I’d bet the calculation is what most people think… that they can just “wait it out.” The courts will rule in Disney’s favor, DeSantis will move on to whatever, this was a one-time weapon and the legislature doesn’t really want to be anti business / anti tourism, so don’t rock the boat unnecessarily.

If the state prevails, and does it again, and again… Then it might be elevated to crisis state and worth fighting. But it’s not easy or cheap to relocate business, so then again what’s a little chilled speech among “partners” anyway.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

The school districts here comprise entire counties, several of which have seven digit populations

I understand that. I wasn't saying "wow, I wonder why the school districts are so big, it's such a mystery." I'm saying "what a crappy system, this is terrible for parents and students."

Ted Cruz wasn't governor of the state of Texas. I'm specifically referring to the CEO of the state.

When the largest city in your state is on fire, when the fire department will no longer respond to burning buildings because they are being shot at, you'd better damn well get your rear back and handle it.

Maybe in 1965, but we have 50 years of technology behind us between now and then. Someone's PHYSICAL presence in a place has absolutely not bearing on their ability to direct the administration thereof.

 

[mkt]

I understand that. I wasn't saying "wow, I wonder why the school districts are so big, it's such a mystery." I'm saying "what a crappy system, this is terrible for parents and students."

I agree entirely, and it’s only getting worse. The primary reason we are leaving the state of Florida is for better schools.

 

[Stripes]

That's not how precedent works.

I’d love to see a source for that interpretation.

Regardless, let’s put it another way. If the court finds that Disney’s allegations of retaliation, given the extensive amount of evidence to support them, are not sufficiently substantiated, such a finding would be very harmful to the future of this country.

 

[flynnibus]

In the far NE state of Wisconsin our schools are controlled at the municipal level. Ditto Ohio, Indiana, Iowa and Illinois. So it’s not just the NE, Midwest too.

Wisconsin - https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/mi...n/ib_school_district_governance_eh_2021_02_15

"Wisconsin public school districts are classified as one of the following: common school districts, union high school districts, unified school districts, or first-class city districts. Wisconsin has a total of 421 public school districts: 365 common school districts (of which 322 serve grades K-12 and 43 serve grades K-8), 45 unified school districts, 10 union high school districts, and one first-class city school district, Milwaukee Public Schools (MPS)."

Your school districts are not controlled at the municipal level (city, town,township) - they are independent elected bodies with their own taxing authority.

 

[Chi84]

That's not how precedent works.

Facts are not entirely irrelevant where precedent is concerned. Arguments on appeal will often center on how the facts in a specific case were sufficient or insufficient to support a particular interpretation or application of the law. There are pure issues of law where the facts don't matter and review will be de novo, with no deference to the fact-finder.

There are even times when a court can decide an issue of fact, if it determines that no reasonable person could find otherwise.

 

[Touchdown]

Wisconsin - https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/mi...n/ib_school_district_governance_eh_2021_02_15

"Wisconsin public school districts are classified as one of the following: common school districts, union high school districts, unified school districts, or first-class city districts. Wisconsin has a total of 421 public school districts: 365 common school districts (of which 322 serve grades K-12 and 43 serve grades K-8), 45 unified school districts, 10 union high school districts, and one first-class city school district, Milwaukee Public Schools (MPS)."

Your school districts are not controlled at the municipal level (city, town,township) - they are independent elected bodies with their own taxing authority.

And organized by cities essentially. I went to an Appleton Area School District, we had kids from one city and nearby towns too small to have their own schools. We didn’t organize them by county, that would be far too much.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I’d love to see a source for that interpretation.

It's not an interpretation, you're just not understanding what "precedent" means. Factual findings have NOTHING almost nothing to do with any other case besides the one being decided. OJ Simpson being acquitted did not establish precedent for future murder trials, it was confined to THAT jury and THAT trial and THAT fact pattern. It had no applicability elsewhere.

given the extensive amount of evidence to support them

The jury isn't going to be participating in message boards and reading every article that CNN puts out about this case. They're going to see the evidence presented at trial, and that's it.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Facts are not entirely irrelevant where precedent is concerned. Arguments on appeal will often center on how the facts in a specific case were sufficient or insufficient to support a particular interpretation or application of the law. There are pure issues of law where the facts don't matter and review will be de novo, with no deference to the fact-finder.

That's an extreme hurdle. I believe the standard is "clearly erroneous" for an appellate court to revisit the facts.

 

[Chi84]

That's an extreme hurdle. I believe the standard is "clearly erroneous" for an appellate court to revisit the facts.

I added to my previous post. Appellate courts are careful not to interfere with fact findings, but "clearly erroneous" is not what I would call an extreme hurdle.