Rapid Fill Mug Program Fails (at more ways than you might think)

Lord_Vader

Join me, together we can rule the galaxy.
Kinda begs the question why they aren't also used in Club Cool. I saw a grumbling about flavors being taken out. Couldn't you gear several of these machines for dispensing these drinks from around the world?

But I do like the machines as well. Wegmans all have them. The only downside is if you are somewhere there is only one, and you get stuck behind someone who cannot figure it out or decide what they want.

I agree completely, the Freestyle machines are great but can get slow with people who don't know what they are doing and children making suicides. I would have figured Disney would be jumping all over them as an opportunity to enhance their offering to make more $$$$.
 

jlsHouston

Well-Known Member
Do not agree on that one - I can recall when VHS movie tapes were north of 75 bucks and piracy was a HUGE problem, When the price was reduced below $25 the problem more or less went away, yes there are hardcore crooks who are going to steal no matter what but Disney is making the problem worse with the excessive mug cost and their desire to be cheap by using the mug designs for YEARS.

My idea if DIsney simply does not want to make it part of admission or room.

1 - make the mugs collectible again
2 - lower the price to < $10
3 - charge .25 for a refill with the MB infrastructure it should be easy enough to simply make it a room charge or 'free' with DDP
4 - for those staying offsite sell a refill 'card' with 20 refills for $5 bucks or so and takes the container out of the equation and metering 16-20 oz of drink is not a real problem and make the card good for say 48 hours.

For the tea/coffee/hot chocolate machines a wave of the card would activate tap for say 60 seconds.

This completely takes 'Free' refills out of the equation and does so by allowing Disney to collect a modest profit on each drink.

Fixes the theft problem and lowers the friction and allows people to get as much as they want without being annoyed by the waits and lets kids 'mix' if they so desire.
Not a bad idea...
 

jlsHouston

Well-Known Member
Maybe that is why that have not because it would increase wait times for pop. I know at wendys back on campus - the average person is at the machine for about 1 or 2 minutes looking at the choices.
I know but I love those machines..Pei Wei has one and Fuddruckers...I almost pass on that mandarin ice tea I love at Pei Wei just to use that soda machine and get a rasberry vanilla coke.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Not sure where you got the assumption I was OK with people "stealing" soda, just looking at it from both sides here.
To be honest... I don't think that is what I said at all. My comment was about your belief that lowering the price per drink would stop the stealing. I am saying, not a chance! Disney created that monster and it isn't due to cost, it's due to peoples lack of moral compass. Lower cost will not change that. It's the fact that they had set up a system with no controls that everyone knew they could get away with and they took that and ran with it.
 

jlsHouston

Well-Known Member
To be honest... I don't think that is what I said at all. My comment was about your belief that lowering the price per drink would stop the stealing. I am saying, not a chance! Disney created that monster and it isn't due to cost, it's due to peoples lack of moral compass. Lower cost will not change that. It's the fact that they had set up a system with no controls that everyone knew they could get away with and they took that and ran with it.

I didn't read your comment that you were chastising any of us that look the other way about soda stealing and you are absolutely right inasmuch that Disney set the system up. It's a honor system. Some people are going to exploit it, use it to their advantage or whatever you want to label it. Obviously Disney has been aware for quite some time that the mugs were creating free drinks for future park visitors that may or may not have purchased a dining plan or new refillable mugs. I just think their RR machinery is a mess. I hate it. I do like the new mugs with new colors and designs. I will pay the $ 100 bucks for my party of 4 or 5 to have unlimited refills while we stay on property.
But I prefer Disney just tack it on to the room price. Everybody gets a mug and free drinks if they stay on property. I like that...seems generous and like Disney is striving for customer satisfaction.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
The mugs are $17.99 for a length of stay, up to 14 days. We used ours, after asking for an extension, for 15 days resulting in the net cost of the mugs being $1.19 per day which is less than it would cost me to purchase a single soda at McDonald's each day locally. That is actually VERY inexpensive when considering I used mine for two cups of coffee each morning, a soda or two each evening and a hot cocoa or two for good measure. I do not believe the price is set too high for what is made available based on my families usage and the fact we typically stay two weeks at a time.

I will grant you that $17.99 for four days usage is high and I would hesitate to purchase for that price but as the average stay seems to be 8 days now the daily cost is just at $2.25 per day which is not unreasonable if you were purchasing a single beverage per day at your resort would cost as much or more.

20 refills for $5.00 is $0.40 each which would barely cover expenses for the syrup, filtration, CO2 and lets face it, Disney is always going to make sure everything you purchase results in a "small" profit. I could see them selling the cup for $7.99 and charging $0.75 for a refill but I would personally prefer they not go that route as I would end up at Wal-Mart or Target to pick-up my soft-drinks and I would bring my own coffee maker/coffee.

As @englandd noted using high side estimates all the components including a non-rfid cup are on the order of .20 so that would give Disney a .05 profit on EVERY drink - no free drinks without a cup it would boost to the order of .07 per drink, Coffee/Tea/Cocoa probably are on order of .15 on the high side.

Plus mugs after COGS are pure profit no downstream revenue drain. Remember pricing is to a degree psychological and over .50 people start THINKING about each drink the key is not having them think about it which is why a low price is better for this but this is in the retail realm and I'm an Engineer so I'm simply making WAG's here.
 

Lord_Vader

Join me, together we can rule the galaxy.
As @englandd noted using high side estimates all the components including a non-rfid cup are on the order of .20 so that would give Disney a .05 profit on EVERY drink - no free drinks without a cup it would boost to the order of .07 per drink, Coffee/Tea/Cocoa probably are on order of .15 on the high side.

Plus mugs after COGS are pure profit no downstream revenue drain. Remember pricing is to a degree psychological and over .50 people start THINKING about each drink the key is not having them think about it which is why a low price is better for this but this is in the retail realm and I'm an Engineer so I'm simply making WAG's here.

This issue I have is not whether a nickel per refill is a profit, to a restaurant owner and in this case Disney, they would most likely not serve a product that produces such a very low margin. There are hidden items that are not accounted for, filtration expense, transportation and storage of BIBs, labor to clean and maintain the dispensers, power consumption, ice manufacturing expense that a nickel per refill would most likely not cover even in very high volume locations.

I would be one of the first to jump into a deal like you are suggesting as it is a great deal for the consumer but not so much for WDW. While I am not in retail, I have many friends who own restaurants, retail and other business types and based on their statements, retail pricing should expect to double their COGS" to break even. Even companies such as Wal-Mart double much of their wholesale costs to sell. In restaurants high margin items partially offset lower margin items that do not move as fast to provide variety to entice customers. I am an Engineer as well, spend quite a bit of my time studing business cases from Marketing for new products to determine their profitability.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Do not agree on that one - I can recall when VHS movie tapes were north of 75 bucks and piracy was a HUGE problem, When the price was reduced below $25 the problem more or less went away, yes there are hardcore crooks who are going to steal no matter what but Disney is making the problem worse with the excessive mug cost and their desire to be cheap by using the mug designs for YEARS.

My idea if DIsney simply does not want to make it part of admission or room.

1 - make the mugs collectible again
2 - lower the price to < $10
3 - charge .25 for a refill with the MB infrastructure it should be easy enough to simply make it a room charge or 'free' with DDP
4 - for those staying offsite sell a refill 'card' with 20 refills for $5 bucks or so and takes the container out of the equation and metering 16-20 oz of drink is not a real problem and make the card good for say 48 hours.

For the tea/coffee/hot chocolate machines a wave of the card would activate tap for say 60 seconds.

This completely takes 'Free' refills out of the equation and does so by allowing Disney to collect a modest profit on each drink.

Fixes the theft problem and lowers the friction and allows people to get as much as they want without being annoyed by the waits and lets kids 'mix' if they so desire.
Video piracy is still a huge problem. You may not be seeing it from the same sources as back in the VHS days, but in a lot of ways it is worse.

On the drink cup side I think there is an even easier sollution that would have solved all of this. Figure out what you think you should be making from beverage sales to your guests and build it into the price of the room. If it's $3 per day and you average 3 guests per room rates go up $9. Then you market this as a benefit of staying on property. EMHs, DME and free drinks at the resort. You either provide each guest with a cheap plastic mug (like the ones they have now) when they check in or offer collectible refillable mugs that are reasonably priced ($3 to $5) but can be reused on return visits. The drink machines can be fit with sensors for the magic bands and only work if you are staying at the hotel. Paper cups similar to the current ones could be sold for anyone who doesn't have a mug (either not staying at the hotel or mug left in their room). You make up signs saying only sanctioned mugs can be used at the machines and actually enforce the rule. This solves all of the issues and keeps guests happy. The current system is just silly, but so was allowing people to abuse the old system.
 

dstrawn9889

Well-Known Member
for freestyle replacements, all the would have to do is reprogram the machines to ave the flavors they want on th efron, no 'mixing' and the lines would go away... who really wants fanta grape rootbeer anyway?
 

Maelstrom Troll

Well-Known Member
I didn't have the time to peruse the previous 16 pages in their entirety, but has anyone else noticed that the mug wash stations are usually a mess? We noticed giant pools of water on the counter and floor at POP and at Cpt. Cook's at the Poly. It looked like a big slip hazard.
 

jmb2676

Active Member
To those who think that the issue is a result of poor guest behavior, you would be correct. This is an effort to control F&B costs. Lets do some math.

Lets start with the components that make up these Bev systems.

1) Water. This is pushed through a carbon based filtration system. The filters may or may not cost Disney anything. Generally, Coke will provide the filter replacement for free, and I have no reason to doubt Disney would be any different. But, if not, the cost for a 20" filter (the big boy, they sell smaller) is around $40. In addition, Ice Machines are generally filtered (any good operator would want to, it keeps your ice machine cleaner and in better condition, therefore operating more efficiently and longer). I have no doubt Disney filters their ice machines as well.

These replacement filters cost closer to $60. These filters should be replaced a minimum of once every 6 months (there actually should be a PSI indicator that the manager can look at to see if the system needs a new filter, but most of the time it's just easier to put it on a regular replacement schedule. So, lets assume Disney, due to volume and the incoming (poor) water quality decides to change out the filtration once a month. That means approx $200 a month for filtration for a 4 unit beverage bar, as you'll find at most of the resorts. This comes out to $200 / $30 = ~$7 a day per 4 unit bar. Divide this by the average number of drinks dispensed per day and you come out with a very...very small number. So, we can safely discount these costs from any equation.

Then there is the cost of the water itself. For giggles, lets just assume filtration + water + system maintenance parts and general labor adds 2 cents of cost per drink (this is very high).

2) Carbonation. I have little doubt that Disney is using something like NUCO2's service, with large 750 lb containers. It just makes operational sense. These units add less than 1 cent per drink of cost...but, again, I will round up to be overly generous, and say it's 1 cent. Also note, not all products require infusion of CO2 (like Poweraid, Hi-C, etc.) But, we'll stick with 1 cent.

3) Syrup. BIB (Bag in Box) syrups generally come in 1 gal, 2.5 gal or 5 gal boxes. With an average ratio of 5 oz of water for every 1 oz of syrup, each 5 gal BIB should use 25 gals of water, and therefore 30 gals of mixed product. The 5 to 1 ratio is an average. Some sodas use a 5.0 ratio, some a 5.5 and some a 4.5 ratio. If you've ever seen the little fronts of a soda machine where the flavor is indicated lifted up, behind them you'll find two little dials. These adjust the ratio, one for syrup, one for water. You use a tool called a Brix cup to calibrate your machine for best taste. If you are curious, it looks like this.

12T07186.jpg

Even when it's fully calibrated, it is very rare you'll use all of the syrup in your BIB. I'd estimate 98% usage. So, at 100% usage, that's 30 gallons of product. 128 oz in a gallon, so 30 gal x 128 = 3840 oz. 3840 * .98 = 3763 oz of finished product per BIB.

BIB box costs vary based on various factors (popularity of the product, pricing agreement with Coke, etc...etc...), but lets assume an average cost of around $60 per BIB (this is a bit steep for Disney, I suspect...but it works).

So, with all this information (granted rather dry info) in place, now we can start to estimate cost.

First, lets consider the Disney Mugs, and lets assume (because I don't have one handy) that they hold 12 oz of soda. So, $60 / 3763 = 1.6 cents per oz. $0.016 * 12 oz = $0.192.

So, 19.2 cents per fill is your cost per mug. But, what about ice? If we assume that the average person fills their cup halfway with ice, this means the average mug will contain between 6 and 8 oz of soda. We'll go with 8, for this estimate. So, the initial fill is really closer to $0.016 * 8 oz = $0.128 per initial fill. Add to this the generous 2 cent overhead costs I described above and round and you end up with 15 cents per fill.

Refills, however, are a different story.

People tend not to add more ice to their refill, and the ice melts. Therefore, the actual amount of product distributed is probably closer to 10oz (again being generous) per refill. Using our tried and true cost formula, this means a per refill cost of $0.016 * 10 = $0.16. Add the 2 cent overhead, and you have 18 cents per refill.

So:
Fills with no ice equal ~22 cents
Fills with fresh ice equal ~15 cents
Fills with melted ice or low ice equal ~18 cents

For giggles then, lets say that every drink distributed costs ~19 cents of product.

Now you add in your paper cost (cost of the mug, cost of straws, cost of lids, etc. Generously estimating numbers (especially to account for straw waste), I'd estimate something like this. Cup is around 15 cents, lid is 1 cent, straw (with waste) costs around 2 cents.

Total cost per drink is around 37 cents.

This, if you are every curious, how you can come up with your drink pricing at a restaurant, as you manage a business like that by percents, not by dollar amounts per se.

Anyhow, now lets get creative with the theft issue. Lets take POFQ, which has around 1000 rooms. Lets assume full occupancy and an average occupancy rate of 3 people. So, 3000 people. Now lets assume that 1/5 of them are stealing an average of 4 sodas a day (one for each meal plus one to sip by the pool). So, 2400 sodas are being stolen a day.

These are all very generous numbers, but that's aside the point.

Lets take the highest cost scenario (no ice). 2400 x $0.22 = $528. That's $528 dollars of loss per day, or $192,720 per annum. And, that's only ONE resort, and the smallest one at that.

Disney has what, around 30,000 rooms? Take that same formula with the same assumptions of theft and occupancy rate, and you end up with a very large number.

30,000 rooms * avg. occupancy of 3 people = 90,000 guests
90,000 guests / 5 = 18,000 people who steal drinks daily
18,000 * 4 drinks per day = 72,000 stolen drinks per day
72,000 * $0.22 cents per drink = $15,840 loss per day

Or, $5.78 million dollars of loss per annum.

Note, in every case I skewed the costs up to benefit Disney's mindset. And, that doesn't get into lost potential revenue (say, people reusing the 20oz paper cups or room cups because they don't have mugs. Add this in and not only do you see millions of dollars of cost, but you also see millions in lost revenue.

Lets say each of those people stealing bought an $18 dollar mug, that makes the model a bit more complex as you'd have to factor in average length of stay, etc., to come up with any potential revenue. However, if we just assume they purchased a paper cup for each meal, the math gets easier. For this, we'll assume that of the 4 drinks stolen per day, 2 are refills.

72,000 drinks stolen per day / 2 = 36,000 * $3 per cup = $108,000 in new revenue a DAY. Or $36,420,000 per annum.

Or, likewise, if we assume that they each buy one day allotments on mugs (again, so I don't have to get into average length of stay, etc...). This means that every drink outside of the first would be "free", so we would divide by 4.

72,000 drinks stolen per day / 4 = 18,000 * $9 per mug = $162,000 in new revenue a DAY. Or $59,130,000 per annum.

Now, think like a person being presented this in a meeting room who has never operated a restaurant day to day. It seems like an excellent business decision, don't you think? Current shrink is costing $5.78 million AND we have the potential to make another $36 to $50 million a year in added revenue?

Someone is getting a BONUS this year! :p

Anyhow, I am deeply against this system, but I wanted to run through some of the numbers and considerations Disney certainly looked at as a matter of information for anyone unaware of the details of F&B costing.

Sorry so long!

Just wanted to add that when I was a cast member at Epcot, the BIB syrup was at no cost to us and that I did actually view the invoices. We paid for the 20oz bottles (highly discounted) but the syrup was free. Of course this could have changed since then (mid 90's).
 

dstrawn9889

Well-Known Member
Just wanted to add that when I was a cast member at Epcot, the BIB syrup was at no cost to us and that I did actually view the invoices. We paid for the 20oz bottles (highly discounted) but the syrup was free. Of course this could have changed since then (mid 90's).
since the Coke is the sponsor, i would believe that the syrup for the club dispensers as being provided by the sponsor...
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I like this idea - I still don't understand WHY disney did not implement ie tie the refill to the person NOT the mug. They seem to have a love for complexity where none is needed

1) They are reusing an existing implementation... moving the RFID reader would of course require a redesign specific to Disney
2) by putting the reader in use for a band - it's less natural than just putting the mug in place
3) complicates multiple concurrent usage
4) timing - RR was done before and isolated from MM+
5) what do you do for people without a MB? Give them a RFID enabled cup? Oh wait.. now I need to hold the cup up where I put my band.. etc

As much as people are complaining the system is confusing end-users... your model is even more complex.
 

ParkMan73

Active Member
There will be a day where using a MB to operate a drink machine will be second nature. When guests start using them for everything else, this will be yet just another thing.

Someone with some sense over there needs to reign in these mid level managers that want to impress their boss by saying "look how I just created a program to save 1M a year on drinks".
 

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