Project Gemini Revealed

[darthdarrel]

I agree! By focussing on the "teen" group they are alienating the group that spends the most money at Disney and that is the "adult/family !How do they expcect to make money off the teens?after all it is the adults that teens even get their money from!Most teens can`t afford 300 bucks for a hopper pass or 2,000 bucks for resort stay! So why are they focussing on this group,not that there shouldn`t be a few thrill rides for that group,I just don`t think it`s economically prudent to focus on them.

 

[Fido]

Originally posted by Raidermatt
When was the last time Disney built a non-physical-thrill attraction of the scope of rides like Test Track, Tower of Terror, or Rock 'n' Roller Coaster?

Well I think Countdown to Extinction/Dinosaur could be argued for in that context. I say it is arguable because while it is a *little* bit intense, I consider it to be on the mild side (like Star Tours). This is coming from a coaster chicken!

It's not that I disagree with you in general though, On the contrary. I'd be happy with nothing but dark rides/mild action rides. I love em.
:wave:

 

[Bayou_Tigerfan]

What was it about my comments that have been reflexive and out of hand? What have I not explained? Further, where have I said a rainforest coaster would be the end of Epcot? The truth, in fact, is that I said Project Gemini as it stands would be better than doing nothing. In other words, its a positive, not a negative.

Raidermatt, you are actually more reflective than reflexive -- I didn't mean for that to apply to you.

My problems with it are that it is a CONTINUATION of Disney's near abandonment of significant, family-inclusive attractions. The concept of family-inclusive entertainment was the primary reason behind the building of Disneyland in the first place. Disney has slowly moved away from that concept over the last 20 years or so. Now, they are beginning to pay for this move, and it doesn't look like they are learning anything. They are losing the differentiation between themselves and the Universals of the world because they have chosen to compete in a realm (physical thrills) that many others have proven very capable of succeeding in.

Here, I must totally disagree with you. The fact is that in recent years WDW has constructed a number of family-inclusive attractions. In fact, in the 90's it built a whole park of them (AK) and created another as a park-defining attraction (Fantasmic). Guess what? Overall WDW attendance really didn't rise much after AK opened, and WDW didn't realize the benefit that they had hoped.

The biggest problem with your argument is that "family inclusive" has to include teenagers, especially teenage boys. I'm sure that Disney has market research indicating that teenage boys think WDW is for kids, isn't "cool," etc. Disney needs to attract entire families and is now trying to "catch up" for the long period it went without developing many rides for that part of its market. Keep in mind that rides like the Matterhorn and Space Mountain were part of Walt's vision. I think what Disney discovered is that teens were convincing their families to vacation elsewhere. If you think about it ... MS, TT, and RnRC are all aimed at teenage boys much more than girls.

I have stated what the warnings on the rides themselves say. I didn't make this up. It's not MY opinion. Further, if you ask a doctor what rides a pregnant women should avoid, they will recommend you at least follow the warnings provided.

Of course they will ... they have to keep from being sued as well! :lol: Seriously, many of the rides with height restrictions and/or pregancy warnings do not provide intense physical activity (think KRR, Barnstormer, Splash, Tomorrowland Speedway, Maelstrom, Backlot Tour, etc.) Riding the bus back to the resort can be a lot more intense that some of these rides. Again, I'm not recommending that pregnant women ride anything , I'm just saying that most of these rides can obviously be safe in some circumstances.

 

[Mr. Toad]

I'm still not sure how I feel about PG, especially the Rainforest Rollercoaster. But I had to laugh when I thought about it ruining EPCOT to have an outdoor rollercoaster. I remember when we visited WDW the year Space Mountain opened and my mom looked across the lagoon from the Poly and said "It ugly and too big. It draws the attention away from the castle and ruins the look of the Magic Kingdom. What were they thinking?" And at the time I felt she was right (even though I couldn't wait to try the ride). Now I can't think of seeing the Magic Kingdom without it (she doesn't complain about it anymore either).

The only thing I definately have an opinion on is TLS. Please don't turn it into a Little Mermaid themed showcase. This just seems like it would be so wrong.

Personally, I am not sold on the whole forest concept. My vision of the future was formed watching things like Star Trek, Star Wars, 2001, Space 1999 (showing my age ) so Future World kinda fits with that vision. But I am open to trying something new.

(Mr. Toad puts on his Dino-Rama blocking glasses)
I have confidence that with something this scale they will make everything fit nicely (including an outdoor rollercoaster). It may take some time to adjust to the new look though.
(Mr. Toad removes his Dino-Rama blocking glasses)

On another note I would have thought that something with Legacy in the name would hav lasted a bit longer. Maybe they will use the stones to mark the different areas of the parking lot. Or they could just be there hidden by trees.

 

[durhay]

General thoughts on this thread:

• Do we get some sort of reward (chevrons, triple post points, refillable WDWMagic mugs) for slogging through this thread?
• I've never read the word "trees" so many times in a single thread before
• I actually recalled that Arbor Day Foundation commerical with the animated Cardinal in a top hat and cane singing about "trees are terrific"
• This point was made earlier by someone else, but it's a good one - 20 years ago, we didn't have the Internet and various cable channels like History and Discovery, so all that information we picked up was new to us. It's getting harder to stay fresh in the edutainment world
• I wish Communicore would keep its roof intact under Gemini
• I miss the early days of EPCOT Center too, but I don't miss those original "futuristic" character costumes.
• Do you think that Pleasure Island was conceived because some higher-ups were getting p.o'd at that plane with the Rosie O'Grady's Church Street Station banner constantly flying around?

 

[Dizknee_Phreek]

Originally posted by durhay

• I miss the early days of EPCOT Center too, but I don't miss those original "futuristic" character costumes.
• Do you think that Pleasure Island was conceived because some higher-ups were getting p.o'd at that plane with the Rosie O'Grady's Church Street Station banner constantly flying around?

:lol: yeah, those costumes WERE pretty bad! has anyone else noticed that it's been a LONG time since Epcot's had one of those corny song-filled shows? i don't miss em one bit, but i do wonder if that's part of the problem...MK still has them and attendance is still strong there.

LOL! i remember those! it's been a long time since i've seen any! and i remember when they had the planes that spelled stuff out in the sky with smoke! man, those were the days! i wonder why we don't see those planes any more? Disney didn't outlaw them from flying over their property did they?

 

[Fido]

Originally posted by durhay

[*]I miss the early days of EPCOT Center too, but I don't miss those original "futuristic" character costumes.

Oh, now that's just mean! Those wacky silver costumes were one of the few things with a sense of humor at the time. :lol:

Trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees trees

 

[dox]

I feel compelled to respond to the various posts, where people have suggested IOA and US is somehow superior to the disney parks or that they offer a model for disney to emulate. First off, as recent reports showed, both theme parks had a greater dip in attendance. In fact US had a greater dip in attendance.
Now I enjoy thrill rides alot. I live in NYC and make a point each summer of going to Six Flags, but I'll be the first to tell you I rather go to Disney anyday. US and IOA are not the success people believe them to be. Part of the reason for Disney's dip in attendance isn't the quality at the parks, but the fact is there is more competition out there for a vacationer's time. I know tons of people who are bigtime golfers and love going down to the various golf courses down there. Not only do you have US/IoA but there's the water parks, sea world, busch gardens (only an hour away), Cape Canaveral, etc., etc.
Now I for one side with those that want to see a few more thrill rides in the parks. However, I don't believe that this should be done to the exclusion of dark rides. I for one as I suggested in another post, they should convert the 20,000 Leagues lagoon into a Little Mermaid ride and I hope SE doesn't go away. But times have changed. Yes I know Walt hated amusement parks where kids rode rides and parents stood on the sidelines. But the kids walt was talking about, were the baby boomers who grew up on thrill rides and roller coasters and now all ride thrill rides with their kids. My ten year old niece and her parents all ride the same rides. As do her and all her parent's friends.
But I dont want to see Disney copy IofA. First off I think US stinks, that park is so boring other than Back to the Future. IofA is fun but not worth repeat visits. I find Spider Man incredibly overrated. I've rode it several times during each visit and I still don't get the appeal. Jurassic Park is a let down, as for the drop - same as the TTW at Busch. Dueling Dragons - is ok but not anything different than Batman ride. The only rides that are truly fun and outstanding are Hulk, Popeyes and personally Cat in the Hat.
What sets Disney's rides apart is the theming, the story line, the immersion in atmospher. Thats one of the reasons Disney is a far greater experience. Perfect example, Dudley do Right - yes it has a great drop. But I rather ride Spash Mt. over and over again. The combo. of the characters, the music.. all those dark ride elements combined with a thrill ride, albeit a tame one, sets it leagues apart and also manages to be more of a family experience. So I for one am not fearful of added thrill rides. Given what we've seen disney imagineers do, i have faith.
Nuff said. Sorry for the lengthy post.

 

[Dizknee_Phreek]

agreed, dox! i too think that they should add a few thrill rides here and there, but ONLY if they compliment the theme and spirit of the area they're built in. and as long as they don't over populate the dark rides that Disney succeded in making a name for theirselves with.

as for children riding 'thrill rides' with their parents (and this isn't directed at you dox...it's just a general statement) i can only speak for myself and my family. when i was younger, we didn't ride the 'thrill rides'. i was absolutely terrified of them. dad's never liked them, and mom can only ride a certain few due to her motion sickness. lol, here's a funny story though...my sister wanted to ride BTM, so dad read up on it in Birnbaum's and thought it said MILD ride instead of WILD ride. he totally neglected the sign outside the entrance :hammer: when they got off, he said that he had one hand clutched to the back of their car, and the other hand clutched to the front of their car :lol: ...but back to what i was saying...my sister was really the daring one of the group. i remember when she first rode Space Mtn.....she was in there forever and i remember being really scared that her car had flown off the tracks or something. when she finally got off (turns out they only had one track going, or something) she tried to get me to go back on it with her, but i refused. the first coaster i ever rode was Barnstormer. keep in mind that my family and i had gone every year since 1992 (i was 8 then) and so my guess is that i was pre-teen by the time i rode it. i think it actually took me that long to get back on HM (i was truamatized by that ride on our first visit) alright, this is getting rather lengthy, so i'll end it here.
my whole point is that yes, make thrill rides for the families that ride them together...but do NOT forget the families that either choose not to ride them or can not ride them together whatever their reasoning may be. i think that's the ONLY solution to Disney's problem....to make a balance...and however they go about it, to do whatever's nessasary to make the balance to their best ability. and don't make changes quickly just to get them out there...they need to take their time, test it over and over again, and make sure that they're doing the right things that will be in the parks' favor!

 

[dox]

In response to Dizney_Phreek

"agreed, dox! i too think that they should add a few thrill rides here and there, but ONLY if they compliment the theme and spirit of the area they're built in. and as long as they don't over populate the dark rides that Disney succeded in making a name for theirselves with."

Totally agree with you. Thats one of the points i was trying to make. As we see with TOT, RnR, TT, SM..they've done that well, until just recently. Although I think Dinosaur is superior to JP at IoA, it could be better. But what's up with Aladdin and that tacky Dino Rama place? Yuck. Stuff like that worries me. But I have faith.

As for the family/thrill ride issue - my family was the same way. I remember when BTM first opened tricking my parents into riding it. My dad assumed we were standing in line for the train and I remember he kept commenting why is their a line for a stupid train. Of course, my older brothers and I stayed very quiet. Once we were halfway through the line my dad figured it out and was quite P.O.'d but rode it nonetheless. ONce we got off, he swore he would never do that again and started yelling at us for putting our mom through that. LOL. What a great moment!! He he he!!
The funny thing is my parents now in their late 60s/early 70s love Splash Mt.

Nonetheless, my point is that alot of ppl becoming parents today grew up on thrill rides as opposed to alot of our parents. And given that disney thrill rides will never be Cedar Point/Six Flags type thrill rides, adding a few disney version of those won't hurt...but again so long as it is done in the same spirit as the rest of the park i.e. ToT, Splash Mt. Its interesting how those rides are relatively new, about 10 yrs. old and are already so much a part of the landscape and the park. I can't ever see Dino Rama becoming that.

 

[Sorcerer Mickey]

No Spaceship Earth? No Wonders of Life? The Living Sea now a place for Little Mermaid?!

I will never, ever look at Disney the same way again. I thought this would improve the park, not degrade it.

 

[imagineersrock]

woah! i just saw that concept map of the new future world (aka discoveyland) but yea -those trees!?!? nope- not working for me thats just too much. also i'll have to agree with many that based on that single piece of concept art; i dislike the idea of that rainforest coaster out in the open. and yeah, a definite no as for an ariel themed LS and an apparent removal of the central fountain??? -thats an EPCOT landmark!!

***i apoligize in advance for these following questions that might be kinda dumb for te average disney expert but i have no idea what these are: 1.) jr autotopia and 2.) [i think its called] "time chasers" or something to that extent -so yea, if someone could reply as to what those are and if ya dont mind, how do yu know so much about these attractions... would these just be clones of already existing atractions at other disney theme parks??? -thanks!***

 

[Goofster]

as was said earlier in this thread, the fountain is not going anywhere as the plans (or rumored plans) now stand, and in the concept map, i'm pretty sure if you look extra close, it's there.

 

[Tim G]

Originally posted by happy snapper
The best lies and deceptions always contain at least 50% truth.

Someone who tells a lie, knows that he's wrong, someone who tells the truth, knows he's right...

Someone who tells half truth, half lie, has forgotten where the truth is and therefore lost reality... :snore:

 

[WDWKing]

Exactly. :animwink: Seriously though, I don't know about the rest of you, but I think that this project shouldn't see the light of day. I'm probably the minority here, but if I were in charge, I wouldn't allow it to happen.

 

[MainStRob]

Well to start off I just wanna say I am new here (lurking for awhile) and for everyone to please that my opinions witha grain of salt, I don't wanna get in big arguements or anything here, lol. Now I know the vast majority of posters here seem to be anti-change when it comes to the parks. Sure I can understand with disasters like the the tiki birds and journey into your imagintion (which btw I liked more before figment showed up). But I think this whole project Gemini deal would be a godsend to WDW. I love epcot, in my days on the college prog. I would spend hours upon hours just hanging out there, drinking around the world, an amazingly large amount of I:roe viewings, etc etc. Now, as much as I do love the park for its open spaces and atmosphere I can understand why it needs a change. The way I look at it if epcot can't be the vision that walt originally had then it should at least be something he would be proud of, I guess that as much fun as epcot is today I think that Walt would favor project gemini 10 times over. Had Walt been around longer he would have surely went for entertainment value over sentimental value. Now I do not mean he would tear everything down, but he would surely not be afraid of changing things and building it all anew. I guess in conclusion that I think that if the majority of people had their way nothing would ever change m.s.e.p. would be on a 25 year run :hurl: , Mr. Toad would be running with a 5 minute standby :hammer: and the only mountain on the wdw range would be space (well walt didn't plan the other ..............) Sorry if I sound at all snotty, really don't mean to! :wave: I guess that just my .02

 

[Fido]

Originally posted by MainStRob
Now I know the vast majority of posters here seem to be anti-change when it comes to the parks. Sure I can understand with disasters like the the tiki birds and journey into your imagintion (which btw I liked more before figment showed up).

As one of the change-haters here, I just want to say that I actually like the Tiki Birds since the change. Sure, I liked them before, but I like the peppier new version as well. Imagination died after the first big change though.

 

[Dizknee_Phreek]

Originally posted by Fido
As one of the change-haters here, I just want to say that I actually like the Tiki Birds since the change. Sure, I liked them before, but I like the peppier new version as well. Imagination died after the first big change though.

i completely agree! i kinda like the new tiki birds too (and i'm rarely ever in favor of change!) like you, i liked the old ones, but i like the new as well. especially the 'evil' woman thing in the middle of the show...i forget her name, but she is SO cool! i love all the blacklight and stuff they use on her...and her song is great as well!

 

[Fido]

Originally posted by Dizknee_Phreek
i completely agree! i kinda like the new tiki birds too (and i'm rarely ever in favor of change!) like you, i liked the old ones, but i like the new as well. especially the 'evil' woman thing in the middle of the show...i forget her name, but she is SO cool! i love all the blacklight and stuff they use on her...and her song is great as well!

I can't remember her name either (does she have a name or is she just a 'Tiki god'?). I think the great thing about the new show is the fact that they still utilize all of the elements of the old show (all of the old animatronics are showcased, you still get a cool thunderstorm with lightning, etc), only they merely changed the songs and added a bunch of new stuff (I love the Phil Hartman/Don Rickles exchange in the preshow).

The only complaint I have is Iago's damn spotlight. That thing blinds you every time if you sit on the left side of the theater!
:lol:

 

[dox]

I also love the new tiki birds. It's hilarious and clever. And the tiki goddess rules! The old show was way too boring. I remember the last time i rode the old show, which was years ago, we walked out. I remember loving it as a kid and my poor parents found it to be torture. Perfect example of positive change and not change for change sake, like JIY and Toad to Pooh.