Progress: It's Not Gonna Happen

[Disneynutcase]

Yep, building structure was reportedly bad. But attendance didn't help much either. If attendance was actually good, then there would be a new Horizons and not M:S.

But again, thread is about progress or lack thereof. So Cymbaldiva, don't despair. Because by all reports (what little there actually is) regarding M:S, what is this attraction really going to be?

Think about it, long-time Disney park fans....

It's Mission to Mars/Flight To The Moon all over again! But with PROGRESS added into the mix that takes the old vibrating chairs, strobe light effects, and movie/tv screens concept, and instead will now reportedly give us riders a much more realistic flight into space experience.

I can't wait to ride it, and remain very intrigued to learn the true details of how it all is going to go.

Therefore, with Mission to Mars less than 10 years dead at both MK and DL, perhaps a few years from now we'll get a Horizons-themed retake at Epcot or elsewhere, but with all the new cutting-edge ride systems-to-be getting us to the new frontiers.

It's not like Horizon's theme/concept isn't a good one. It's just that the ride was becoming old and out of date in so many ways (including the building structure problems). Hence, progress gets in its way.

Right now I'm more intrigued/concerned with what Disney might have up its sleeve as far as "progress" goes for the LS and WoL pavillions as well as CoP and Timekeeper. LS desperately needs a re-take to renew interest. WoL needs a bit of updating and a lot of new paint. I'm surprised by the lack of respect for Timekeeper since it's actually darned good and is relatively new.

CoP should only go if all the rumors about its building's rotation deterioration is true. If not, then there's no real point in removing it unless "progress" has genuinely been made to blow guests socks off with a new attraction so unique and cutting edge that only the real CoP die hards would miss it. Again, I'm not trying to disrespect CoP and its fans. Quite the contrary. The CoP in Anaheim sat empty for over a decade with the braintrusts unable to figure out a reasonable retake or replacement. What they have now (Innoventions) is ridiculous and very unpopular. MK does not need the same thing to happen. That would be lack of progress.

It would also be the sub lagoons all over again!

 

[cymbaldiva]

Once more, and I am asking very nicely, please do not disrespect Horizons. Also I would appreciate it if you would not disrespect me by adding my name to your ramble.

Thank You.

 

[darthdarrel]

Once again another good topic of discussion gets ugly!

 

[Disneynutcase]

Sorry.

Not realy trying to disrespect you or anyone. Just trying to contribute to the discussion.

Or to put it another way, if you feel you're entitled to express your opinions, I should be entitled to express mine.

And if you feel that I ramble, then please feel free to skip my posts.

 

[WDWGarden]

Originally posted by darthdarrel
Once again another good topic of discussion gets ugly!

Come on, Darth...let's save the thread!! I agree, this has been a really fun and intelligent conversation.

Once more, and I am asking very nicely, please do not disrespect Horizons.

To the root of this issue so it can be put to rest...We can all agree that Horizons never was an "E-ticket"...the comment that started this side issue. A great attraction, YES, but not a ride that drove attendance.

Disney Studios actually kind of sucked a decade ago and was a rip-off for admission price until they added ToT--just not enough to do there to warrant an entry price equal to MK or Epcot.

True. In the time between Studios and AK, WDW added things to Studios to build it up. Also adding things to other parks. Progress has happened pretty consistently for over a decade and will continue in the future. I would be willing to bet that something new and exciting for AK is just around the corner...

I will agree we are at the end of a longer than normal period without a big ride. However, in that time, WDW has given us several smaller things to keep us interested in the interim. And these smaller things have been, in most cases, really good stuff! We're on verge of getting a new attraction that, by could very possibly knock our socks off. PROGRESS IS ALL AROUND US!!

 

[pheneix]

>>>As much as I love Epcot, that ride never drew the crowds that all the other Future World attractions drew.<<<

You know, Horizons also had an INSANELY high hourly capacity, even higher than other omnimover attractions at the time.

And yes, Horizons was also one of the biggest attractions *ever* when it opened in 1983. Your opinion may be different, but that doesn't get in the way of the facts.

>>>But give them both another 4-5 years with true Disney commitment<<<

Gee, that's an encouraging thought... [Thinks about Tomorrowland 98 and spills coffee]

>>>Perhaps if IOA has something more to offer they should advertise that as well?<<<

You'll have to forgive Universal's marketing staff, they haven't been to the Wizard of Oz to get their brains yet.

>>>I'm surprised that they haven't tried to reinvision Horizon's concepts with a much more up-to-date cutting-edge retake.<<<

That's kind of what the original plans for Mission Space were (when it was going to be reusing the original Horizons building), but that would have been out of the budget.

>>>I was told that the reason Horizons was torn down was not because of lack of attendance but that it was Structurelly unsound and that it was caving in.<<<

That was also a concern, but the real catalyst was when GE pulled their sponsorship of the pavilion.

 

[space42]

Not trying to fan the flames or anything...

However, I must "chime in" on the Horizons issue. Horizons was most definitely an E-Ticket addition to EPCOT. This was the first major ride to be added in 1983.

Think about it. It was on a grand scale, 15 minutes long, had TWO full sized IMAX screens, large/elaborate sets, choose your own ending, its own theme song, etc (very cutting edge for its day) Plus it was the sequel to COP (I believe COP was an E-Ticket also when they still used ticket books).

The reason Horizons was closed had nothing to do with popularity! The lines for the attraction were very misleading. It was one of the highest capacity attractions in EPCOT (2,660 people per hour). Think about this.. Spaceship Earth is the most visited attraction at WDW! It's hourly capacity is 2,440 people per hour. I have NEVER waited more than 5 minutes for this attraction. So judging an attractions popularity by the lines is not really valid. Horizons was closed because it lost its corporate sponoser (GE). It was left to rot for a while then re-opened when Test Track's opening was delayed. Once TT opened they closed Horizons for good.

If Compaq did not come in and save the day when they picked up the tab for Mission Space, Horizons would probably be still sitting there rotting away. Just like Wonders of Life and The Living Seas that are still without sponsers. Do not expect anything new in either of these areas until Disney can convince someone else to pay for new attractions for those pavillions. I am not against corporate sponsership as it helps to cover the cost of some of these attractions (it also seems like pretty good advertising) . Its just that Disney does not seem to want to spend their own money anymore to help these aging FW attractions since they seem unable to get new sponsers. That is just plain bad show!

my $.02

 

[no2apprentice]

Originally posted by space42
. Its just that Disney does not seem to want to spend their own money anymore to help these aging FW attractions since they seem unable to get new sponsers. That is just plain bad show!

Along with that observation, those who have made comments about Disney putting money in to overseas parks, remember that with Tokyo and Hong Kong, there was/is a great deal of investing by foreign companies (probably a reason why TDL/TDS looks so good on the Travel Channel specials). I would love to see hard FACTUAL numbers on what percentage of the total amount of money Disney put into TDL/TDS and DHK.

I am hoping that Disney will come away from Tokyo and Hong Kong with new and even better ideas for WDW and DL. I hope progress will happen, but it probably won't happen as fast as most of us would like. If anything major is going to happen by 2005, we should start seeing ground clearing next year.

 

[Erika]

I have been avoiding this thread because the opening line, "Quit talking about all of these blue sky concepts you're discussing," REALLY turns me off. I'm sure it wasn't meant to offend but I don't like being bossed around. That's my own problem I guess.

However, I checked it out today after seeing how fast it had grown. I agree that it has turned into a pretty interesting discussion.

It's been 2 years since I've been to The World so I don't have much to contribute. But I am amazed by the place every time. Maybe after my visit this year I will find something to gripe about. I hope not.

Pheneix, you're starting to remind me of Senator McCarthy- wasn't it you that started the "Communist Countries" thread or was that someone else? :lol: :wave:

 

[WDWdude12]

Whenever i look at the old area that used to be 20,000 Leagues under the sea i think that they can still do something to it. Just looking at the tracks empty makes me quiver.:hammer: :lookaroun

 

[pheneix]

>>>I would love to see hard FACTUAL numbers on what percentage of the total amount of money Disney put into TDL/TDS and DHK.<<<

Disney did not put one dime in the Tokyo Disney Resort. It is all an OLC venture. However, they have put $300 million into the Hong Kong project. The Chinese government is funding the other $2.7 billion of the project.

 

[no2apprentice]

Thank you, pheneix. I never would have guessed.

I guess some progress has a high price.:animwink:

 

[Sketch105]

Originally posted by pheneix
>>>>>>But give them both another 4-5 years with true Disney commitment<<<

Gee, that's an encouraging thought... [Thinks about Tomorrowland 98 and spills coffee]

Are you mad at the Imagineers or the accountants?

 

[darthdarrel]

Phenix if it is true that Disney didnot flip one dime for disney seas,why did they say on that special that Disney seas cost disney over a billion dollars? Just wondering,I don`t know the facts.

 

[WeirdOne]

Sorry for chiming in so late.

Originally posted by pheneix
You know, that is why I can't help but laugh whenever I see the "IOA is nothing but a glorified Six Flags" comments.

IOA is nothing but a glorified Six Flags! - The WeirdOne











P.S. - Sorry pheneix, I just couldn't resist :lol: !

 

[WeirdOne]

Originally posted by darthdarrel
Phenix if it is true that Disney didnot flip one dime for disney seas,why did they say on that special that Disney seas cost disney over a billion dollars? Just wondering,I don`t know the facts.

Travle Channel tends to fib a lot. Plus, no offense to anyone, please get it straight, it's DisneySea, not Disney Seas. Thanks! Tokyo DisneySea was 2.6 Billion I believe. Or that might have been the whole resort explansion. Not sure. I'd need to check my press releases. - The WeirdOne

BTW - Disney actually paid for a lot of DLP/WDSP contrary to what pheneix said I believe.

 

[WeirdOne]

Ok, found something, not too great, but still some info.

"In 1995 Oriental Land Co. had budgeted "only" $1 billion for their new resort, which included the cost of DisneySea... A year later the projected budget had more than tripled."

Source - "Unfair To Compare" Article

- The WeirdOne

 

[no2apprentice]

From that information, sounds like pheneix's info may not be too far off. That would put the cost at about $3 billion, which doesn't sound like there would be a whole lot left for Disney to put in. Even if Disney did put some in, it sure sounds like the bulk of it was from OLC.

 

[WeirdOne]

Finally got some real costs here.

"In all, Tokyo DisneySea, IKSPIARI, Disney Ambassador Hotel, Tokyo DisneySea Miracosta, hotel interiors and fixtures for the two hotels and the monorail will require an investment of approximately ¥450 Billion."

Source: 1999 OLC Annual Report

Note: ¥ is ¥en for those who don't know.
Note: In today's money, it is 3,809,684.75, to be really exact. But, you get the picture. Basically 4 billion dollars spent by the OLC. - The WeirdOne

 

[WeirdOne]

Originally posted by no2apprentice
From that information, sounds like pheneix's info may not be too far off. That would put the cost at about $3 billion, which doesn't sound like there would be a whole lot left for Disney to put in. Even if Disney did put some in, it sure sounds like the bulk of it was from OLC.

Disney does not put in 1 dime for OLC funding. Anything in Japan that is Disney related is privately owned or soley funded by the OLC (Oriental Land Company). - The WeirdOne