Progress: It's Not Gonna Happen

no2apprentice

Well-Known Member
I wish I could have been a fly on the wall during planning stages between OLC's representatives and Disney representatives.

Disney: These are our conception designs. We are very pleased.

OLC: That, that, and that won't work. Change it to this.

Disney: But that would mean we would not be able to do it our way.

OLC: We're writing the check. Change it.

Disney: (With a controlled and forced smile) We'll take it back to the boards and see what we can do.

Of course it may have gone very differently. We'll probably never know.:D
 

WeirdOne

New Member
Actually, it was more like:

OLC: We want EPCOT Ball centerpice, Volcanoes, etc.

WDI: Ok...[two weeks later]...

WDI: Epcot Centerpiece is not in the middle but a small fountain up front. Volcano is the centerpiece and it is huge.

OLC: BUT...

WDI: Remember, you are bound by contract. NO CHANGES.

- The WeirdOne :D
 

pheneix

Well-Known Member
>>>Disney actually paid for a lot of DLP/WDSP contrary to what pheneix said I believe.<<<

Everything was upfront to spin off the actual company that runs the Euro Disney Resort, Euro Disney SCA, if I remember right. Either way, Disney did not spend a dime on Disney Studios Paris, it was a Euro Disney SCA. They pretty much poured everything they had into the park, which unfortunately was not much. To their credit, they have been aggressively adding theming to the park as they get the funding for it, but I fear that it will take years to actually bring the park up to par with Disney's other parks (even DCA). Then of course there is also the little problem with the park abysmal performing on an epic scale. Attendance at the park is supposedly a 1/3 of that of DCA's, which as we all know is terrible.

>>>Are you mad at the Imagineers or the accountants?<<<

Well, in this case I think they both have equal blame. The first concept, Tomorrowland 2055, was like a deluxe version of our New Tomorrowland at WDW (because at the time we were getting a version of DLP's Discoveryland), but the accountants pronounced that DOA and told the Imagineers to make up something cheaper. And then Tony Baxter comes in with this new concept for turning Disneyland's Tomorrowland into Discoveryland (because by then our version of Tomorrowland had won out). It was actually very good, and because it was cheaper, they gave the greenlight for the project. What happened between then and May of 1998 is a long and convulted story, but basically their budget grew smaller and smaller as Pressler became President of Disneyland and hacked away at virtually everything that made the park successful (to give you an idea of how bad he was his first major business decision was going to be canning the Indiana Jones Adventure mid-way through construction. Thank God that never made it past the blue sky room). So we got Tomorrowland 98, and it bombed miserably.

But why do I blame the Imagineers? Because even though they were given a horribly small budget ($100 million dollars for what was originally planned is absolutely NOTHING), what they did build should have been much better. I mean, all they did was bring in a cloned movie from Florida, rehab the old COP and drop in Innoventions, overhauled the PeopleMover into Rocket Rods, and put a new coat of paint on everything. But for over $100 million? It is just ridiculous, you can do MUCH more for that kind of money. And now, four years later, what do we have to show for it? A pointless trade show, an E-ticket that permanently closed not even a year after opening, a stale film that does nothing for the main audience of Disneyland (locals), and peeling paint.

Because of Imagineering's and the accounting team's errors, it will take HUNDREDS of millions to fix Tomorrowland.
 

Disneynutcase

New Member
I don't know, man. It's hard for me to blame Imagineers on that one, having known a few people who were in on the original plans for its rehab.

It was the freakin' suits that screwed things up more than anything. Then they sold us a bag of cow chips, claiming that the "New" Tomorrowland was so killer.

Don't even get me started on the overall lameness that was Rocket Rods! How that thing got green-lit with no one catching the potential for track damage is beyond me. I'm surprised Pressler still has his job after that one.

Although my good Imagineering buddy left the company 7 years ago, my ears and mind's eye were going ga-ga over the rumored attractions that were going to go into DL.

Funny how a few of the concepts (such as the 20,000 Leagues update) ended up at other parks over the years.

So I can relate to some of the pessimism expressed on this board. However, I just finally saw the Travel Channel Imagineering show (had it taped but didn't have time to watch it til now). If M:S is even half as good as these bohunks described it, then the whole original thought about "lack of progress" is nothing but bunk.

But I'm happy to play the "Disney needs to hit a homer" game, then pray that the homer is a grand slam. If M:S is a grand slam, maybe...just maybe the Pressler cheap-o attitude will be gone and we'll get some of those great long-shelved innovative attractions at more of the parks.
 

Disneynutcase

New Member
B.T.W.--my definition of "Grand Slam" means a ride that not only delivers beyond all human expectations but pulls people back into Epcot in massive droves (to satisfy the accountants and make Eisner, Pressler and company realize that you need to spend $$$ to wow the tourists and WDW enthusiasts and make $$$)
 

tenchu

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by darthdarrel

This is my point exactly!
instead of spending billions on new parks in tokyo and china,just spend those billions on new rides for the 2 main theme parks Disneyland California and Disney world florida! I saw that special on Disney seas in Tokyo and While it looks Awesome they mention that ,Disney seas itself cost billions of dollars to build alone and they also built a Disnyland in Tokyo and Disneyland In Paris France and NOW they are building a Disneyland in Communist China!Can you imagine the wonderful Rides they could build for Disney world and Disneyland with that money?

So by that attitude, you are limiting Disney only to people who can travel to America?

Are the people of Europe and Asia not allowed to experience it, unless they can afford to go to Florida or California?
 

The Mom

Moderator
Premium Member
I have such mixed feelings about this (the globalization of Disney among other things) On the one hand, it is fun, and I guess everyone should experience at least one trip. On the other hand, if we start having "WDW" clones on every corner, perhaps it won't be as special?

I'm old enough to remember when it was really something, when traveling, to find something unavailable at home to bring back as a souvenir. With globalization, it's getting harder and harder to do.

I suppose that makes me elitist. I just wonder if having "luxuries" become commonplace is making us take them for granted, or making us over critical.
(It would be interesting to contrast current guest reactions to WDW/DL with those of people 20 - 30 years ago)
 

aligrip

New Member
I think one of Disney's biggest problems is they don't know what business they want to be in. I recently read an article in the Wall Street Journal talking about the amount of money that Disney pumps into their various sports teams without results. I think if Disney would get back to basics (Theme parks, quality programming, and childrens entertainment) then would be just fine. Personally, I liked it better before the Disney Store was in every mall. I think they need to exit the unprofitable segements and focus on what they are good at. Mr. Eisner needs to realize that being the biggest company doesn't mean being the best company. :hammer:

As Newsweek said "If Disney doesn't get the Zippidy Doo Dah back, they will be fending off unwanted suitors"..

--Aligrip

----

Originally posted by dreamer
Disney can't survive without money, just like we can't survive without food. So, decisions will be based on money or Disney will die.

Once in a while something creative will sneak through.

 

garyhoov

Trophy Husband
I think Pop Century is a micro-cosm of Disney World. If the economy hadn't slowed down and 9/11 hadn't happened Pop Century would already be up and running and filled with guests. It's foolish for WDW to push to open this resort when they can't fill the existing spaces just as it would be foolish to open new rides when they the ones they've got aren't running at full capacity.

It's a bit of a chicken-egg thing, and some people would argue that new attractions would bring in more guests (I would certainly like to see some interesting new attractions). The reality of the current situation is that Disney will have to put ambitious plans (and I'm sure they have some very interesting things on their boards) off until traffic and cash flow pick up and traffic and cash flow will inevitably pick up as the economy picks up and people put 9/11 behind them. I'm willing to bet that if you compared charts of Disney attendance to charts of the economy and tourism in general, you would see very direct correlations. I expect that new attractions etc. show less blips on such a chart then the broader issues.

Those are my thoughts. I don't claim to be an expert, but I think the above is probably close to the thinking of the Disney higher-ups.
 

The Mom

Moderator
Premium Member
Originally posted by aligrip
I think one of Disney's biggest problems is they don't know what business they want to be in. I recently read an article in the Wall Street Journal talking about the amount of money that Disney pumps into their various sports teams without results. I think if Disney would get back to basics (Theme parks, quality programming, and childrens entertainment) then would be just fine. Personally, I liked it better before the Disney Store was in every mall. I think they need to exit the unprofitable segements and focus on what they are good at. Mr. Eisner needs to realize that being the biggest company doesn't mean being the best company. :hammer:

As Newsweek said "If Disney doesn't get the Zippidy Doo Dah back, they will be fending off unwanted suitors"..

--Aligrip

----

I agree! I wish Disney would get back to it's roots, at least for a while. When DL and WDW opened, Disney was synonymous with the BEST animated movies in the world; BEST family entertainment movies, and BEST family THEME parks in the world. They added hotels to the parks...that made sense, and only added to their core focus. They added more family and adult oriented movies...that also was related to Walt's original vision. But where do sports teams, stores at malls, and TV stations (other than a specific Disney channel to showcase their products) fit in? I'm not very "business" oriented....it just seems like I enjoyed Disney more when they were more focused. It seems like they're becoming "A Jack of all Trades and Master of None."
 

tenchu

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by garyhoov
I think Pop Century is a micro-cosm of Disney World. If the economy hadn't slowed down and 9/11 hadn't happened Pop Century would already be up and running and filled with guests. It's foolish for WDW to push to open this resort when they can't fill the existing spaces just as it would be foolish to open new rides when they the ones they've got aren't running at full capacity.

It's a bit of a chicken-egg thing, and some people would argue that new attractions would bring in more guests (I would certainly like to see some interesting new attractions). The reality of the current situation is that Disney will have to put ambitious plans (and I'm sure they have some very interesting things on their boards) off until traffic and cash flow pick up and traffic and cash flow will inevitably pick up as the economy picks up and people put 9/11 behind them. I'm willing to bet that if you compared charts of Disney attendance to charts of the economy and tourism in general, you would see very direct correlations. I expect that new attractions etc. show less blips on such a chart then the broader issues.

Those are my thoughts. I don't claim to be an expert, but I think the above is probably close to the thinking of the Disney higher-ups.

But on the flip side to putting off new attractions until trade picks up, surely putting quality new attractions in will bring more people to the parks.

I know that mission:space opening would encourage me to make another trip to WDW (If i could afford it!)

I also know that one reason that attendances will be down in WDW this year is due to the number of flights being limited.

This year we found it hard to get flights, as there were not as many being chartered due to an expected downturn in people travelling due to September 11th.

In a recent survey in britain, over 80% of britains said that 11/9 had not affected their attitude to air travel.
 

Mr. Toad

Active Member
Interesting thread.

As for the globalization of Disney I am also mixed. I don't have a problem with people everywhere getting the Disney experience. I know I would love to see DisneySea but I'm not sure I will ever make the trip. But I will admit that one of the fun things that is gone from Disney is that it is hard to find a souvenier on vacation that is unique. There are still some to be found but the place used to be crawling with them. Of course I spend a lot less on souveniers now so that is a good thing, right?

As for major attractions, I would also like to see more of them but then again I would like to go to WDW twice a year for free :lol:. I will say that after my last trip I would almost list AKL as a major attraction. I enjoyed the hotel as much as some of the rides in the parks. I am very excited about Mission Space and Mickey's PhilarMagic. I think they are both good additions for their respective parks.

It's a tough line to walk deciding when to spend large sums of money and hope it pays off vs. holding money in reserve and making cuts in case things get worse. They will have to do something to help their stock price soon or they could face a hostile takeover.

Oh and I loved Horizons (I hope they bring back that orange smell sometime). I remember going on it the first summer it was open and thinking it was great. And even with the high capacity I do recall waiting in line to get on the ride (OK, it was a short line but it was still a line). And the first few years SSE was open I remember seeing HUGE lines for it.
 

garyhoov

Trophy Husband
Originally posted by tenchu



I know that mission:space opening would encourage me to make another trip to WDW (If i could afford it!)


So here's the question: If you could afford it and travel wasn't an issue and there was no Mission Space, would you go? If your answer is: "No, only if Mission Space and other new attractions are there" and most people agree with you, then Disney has to press forward.

If your answer is "I'd still go, but I wish Mission space was there", then they aren't actually losing business due to lack of attractions.

I think, at the moment, for most people it is a money and transportation issue more than an issue of attractions. That will change when things pick up and people have money to spend. When the decision becomes: "Should we make one trip to Disney World this year or two?" They will have to have the attractions to encourage that second trip.

Don't get the wrong idea and think I don't want new attractions. I want them as bad as the next guy. I'm just trying to understand and rationalize Disney's apparent lack of progress on this issue and come up with something better than: "They'll just never do anything"
 

tenchu

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by garyhoov


So here's the question: If you could afford it and travel wasn't an issue and there was no Mission Space, would you go? If your answer is: "No, only if Mission Space and other new attractions are there" and most people agree with you, then Disney has to press forward.

If your answer is "I'd still go, but I wish Mission space was there", then they aren't actually losing business due to lack of attractions.

I think, at the moment, for most people it is a money and transportation issue more than an issue of attractions. That will change when things pick up and people have money to spend. When the decision becomes: "Should we make one trip to Disney World this year or two?" They will have to have the attractions to encourage that second trip.

Don't get the wrong idea and think I don't want new attractions. I want them as bad as the next guy. I'm just trying to understand and rationalize Disney's apparent lack of progress on this issue and come up with something better than: "They'll just never do anything"

Personally, i would still go, but for many people something such as this might be 'the desider'

I can see both sides of the arguament: If you build it they will come, or if they come, you will build it!
 

Jedi Osborn

Active Member
Just to pick one of the many topics now floating around in this thread:
I don't think its all about the rides. Now before anyone gets excited, the rides are an integral part - no rides, no park. I understand that.
But there's so much more. They're adding M:S next year I'm very excited and can't wait to check it out. But after you're ridden it twice in one day, there's still a whole park around you and a whole resort around that. Disney is in the details. Anyone can build a roller coaster, anyone can build an innovative ride (Spider-man for example) but not just anyone can create the atmosphere that Disney has.
And it must be difficult in these relativily lean times keep the magic they have and yet still attract people.
So I get frustrated when I read posts abot how 'we need more rides, bigger rides, better rides'. Sure we do, but at a pace that is beneficial to the company and the park. If you want just rides, go to Cedar Point. It totally rocks, there are a ton of great rides, but its not Disney.


Just my two cents.
 

Sketch105

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by pheneix
>>>Disney actually paid for a lot of DLP/WDSP contrary to what pheneix said I believe.<<<

Everything was upfront to spin off the actual company that runs the Euro Disney Resort...

>>>Are you mad at the Imagineers or the accountants?<<<

Well, in this case I think they both have equal blame. The first concept, Tomorrowland 2055, was like a deluxe version of our New Tomorrowland at WDW

Good thing I asked. I almost launched into a speech about Tommorrowland 2055 and Discoveryland....I get your point about dropping in old attractions, but don't the executives also encourage them in what to put in? I mean, they can come up with all the killer concepts they want like Beastly Kingdom or Discoveryland, but if the Eisner comes in and goes "why don't you just put in Innoventions and HISTA?", then they've got to follow his lead, don't they?
 

WDWdude12

New Member
Originally posted by WeirdOne


Travle Channel tends to fib a lot. Plus, no offense to anyone, please get it straight, it's DisneySea, not Disney Seas. Thanks! Tokyo DisneySea was 2.6 Billion I believe. Or that might have been the whole resort explansion. Not sure. I'd need to check my press releases. - The WeirdOne :D

BTW - Disney actually paid for a lot of DLP/WDSP contrary to what pheneix said I believe.

Yep it is Tokyo Disney Sea... The only reason i remeber that is becuase of when i watch the Disney company clips Channel and they always have that song on Tokyo Disey SEEAAAAA!!! Speaking of watching Tv in Disney has anyone seen that one tv show Family Auto Mart?????:confused:
 
A couple of important points after reading through this very interesting thread:

1) Disney didn't put money into Tokyo, BUT they are making a nice little profit. They get paid licensing fees as well as feed to manage the resort. Same with Disneyland Paris -- while they put money into it at the start, now they receive fees for services and licensing.

2) You can discuss the globalization of Disney watering down the product, and specifically someone mentioned the souveniers, but we've been to DLP twice now, most recently with the Studios opening earlier this year, and it's a totally different experience. Different qualities of guest service, different culture, different merchandise, different rides. Not really better or worse, just different. We love DL Paris and I would definitely go again -- and everything was very different from what we experience everytime we're at WDW.

For those who haven't read it, a couple did a series of stories about their trip to the Tokyo parks on Mouseplanet.com -- it's literally a world away from what we have here. I definitely need to see these parks, the merchandise, the service (tipping is an insult to the Japanese -- you tip to urge someone to do a better job next time!) -- while I've found some of the magic dwindling at WDW, I think I could definitely find it in Japan.

I'm not thrilled with what they're doing in China -- Tokyo and DL Paris are awesome because, while much of the Magic Kingdom parks are similar, they are also very unique in their own way. But from everything I've read about Hong Kong, it will be a miniature replica of MK, with no variation and nothing unique -- how sad!

I think globalization is good -- IF done right. I think Tokyo and Paris are done right, I'm reserving judgement on everything else.
 

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