Potter power: Universal sets 12-month attendance record.

[DisneyFan 2000]

Funny how everyone assumed the WDW apologists would jump in with their extreme dismissals of HP, but it has turned out the Disney haters are throwing out their exaggerated claims.

I'm sorry, Disney hater? I'm the biggest fan of Disney's. I came back just last month from that poor excuse of a park called Hong Kong Disneyland and had the time of my life, just because it was Disney! Last week I went to Disneyland California, and had a complete blast. BUT, there's no denying Disney has been getting lazy for a long while now.

This was a game changing win for US, but it wasn't a devastating loss for Disney. Disney has plenty of properties to exploit and are introducing new ones all the time. They have made a tremendous acquisition in Marvel, and they are also partnered with Lucas on Star Wars and Indy. Disney didn't need HP like US did. This wasn't a big time screw-up. Just a normal business decision.

Thing is, Disney really doesn't. Disney partnering with Lucas is not something new, and Pixar aside Disney hasn't had a runaway hit in quite a while (and I'm in the group that absolutely LOVED Tangled). Moreover, I implore you to name Disney's top 10 attractions. I'm betting most of them will either be from the year 1995 downward or belong to DisneySea/Tokyo Disneyland. There's no denying Disney, with the exception of one or two cases*, has long stopped trying to push the envelope.

Universal has constantly been pushing their own limits. They're not quite there in terms of details but IoA as a whole, and Harry potter specifically shows they're much closer to Disney than anyone ever anticipated. You need to just witness Seuss Landing, Hogsemade, the Spiderman ride, Revenge of the Mummy, The Simpsons Ride and so on to realise Universal really has a good idea of what an immersive experience should be.


*With the cases coming to mind being Soarin' and Mission: Space, and even those weren't complete knockouts.

 

[Rowdy]

Universal has constantly been pushing their own limits.

Oh, they have? And other than WWoHP, that would be...?

 

[DisneyFan 2000]

You need to just witness Seuss Landing, Hogsemade, the Spiderman ride, Revenge of the Mummy, The Simpsons Ride and so on to realise Universal really has a good idea of what an immersive experience should be.

Of course it all comes down to personal opinion...This is mine.

 

[stlbobby]

I'm sorry, Disney hater? I'm the biggest fan of Disney's. I came back just last month from that poor excuse of a park called Hong Kong Disneyland and had the time of my life, just because it was Disney! Last week I went to Disneyland California, and had a complete blast. BUT, there's no denying Disney has been getting lazy for a long while now.


Thing is, Disney really doesn't. Disney partnering with Lucas is not something new, and Pixar aside Disney hasn't had a runaway hit in quite a while (and I'm in the group that absolutely LOVED Tangled). Moreover, I implore you to name Disney's top 10 attractions. I'm betting most of them will either be from the year 1995 downward or belong to DisneySea/Tokyo Disneyland. There's no denying Disney, with the exception of one or two cases*, has long stopped trying to push the envelope.

Universal has constantly been pushing their own limits. They're not quite there in terms of details but IoA as a whole, and Harry potter specifically shows they're much closer to Disney than anyone ever anticipated. You need to just witness Seuss Landing, Hogsemade, the Spiderman ride, Revenge of the Mummy, The Simpsons Ride and so on to realise Universal really has a good idea of what an immersive experience should be.


*With the cases coming to mind being Soarin' and Mission: Space, and even those weren't complete knockouts.

Since I answered this exact criticism just few posts back I will quote myself (the "you" originally referred to a different poster making the same argument about the Lucas partnership):

You were dissing Disney. You said they hadn't done anything with the Lucas properties in twenty years, except that huge new 3-D simulator. I was responding to that specific criticism--which I believe is unfounded.

US may have added more big ticket attractions recently, but it's because they needed them. You are also discounting the things Disney has done recently. They have added Soarin', Toy Story, Everest, MIssion Space, refurbished Haunted Mansion, POTC, The Seas, and Star Wars. They have added a ton of interactive experiences like the Pirates League and Jedi Training Academy. Right now they are in the middle of a huge Fantasyland Expansion.

I'm not trying to compare those things to HP, but to say WDW has just sat stagnate isn't giving them credit for what they have done.

Remember you may not like these things, but they are all extremely popular with the average Disney guest. It also shows how specific attractions don't have the impact at WDW as they do at other parks. Soarin' and Toy Story would have made a huge impact at any other park, but at WDW they are just part of the already massive experience. This is why HP wouldn't have had the impact for Disney as it did for US. That's why it wasn't as valuable to Disney and their passing wasn't an embarrassing mistake, just a decision.

Toy Story is an amazing new combination of interactive, 3-D, and immersive technology. It is just as innovative, new, and popular as HP but because people dismiss it as a kiddie ride it isn't given the credit it deserves. Posters here often forget that all the feedback Disney gets is kids today want more interaction. That is why Disney keeps adding meet and greets, develops Toy Story type ride/games, and things like the Jedi Academy. Even though those things get them slammed on boards as lazy. The average guest loves them.

 

[captainkidd]

Oh, they have? And other than WWoHP, that would be...?

Hollywood Rip Ride Rockit, The Simpsons (though I don't care for it), Revenge of the Mummy.

 

[SleepingMonk]

Toy Story is an amazing new combination of interactive, 3-D, and immersive technology. It is just as innovative, new, and popular as HP...

You really can't be serious about that?

 

[captainkidd]

You were dissing Disney. You said they hadn't done anything with the Lucas properties in twenty years, except that huge new 3-D simulator. I was responding to that specific criticism--which I believe is unfounded.

US may have added more big ticket attractions recently, but it's because they needed them. You are also discounting the things Disney has done recently. They have added Soarin', Toy Story, Everest, MIssion Space, refurbished Haunted Mansion, POTC, The Seas, and Star Wars. They have added a ton of interactive experiences like the Pirates League and Jedi Training Academy. Right now they are in the middle of a huge Fantasyland Expansion.

I'm not trying to compare those things to HP, but to say WDW has just sat stagnate isn't giving them credit for what they have done.

Remember you may not like these things, but they are all extremely popular with the average Disney guest. It also shows how specific attractions don't have the impact at WDW as they do at other parks. Soarin' and Toy Story would have made a huge impact at any other park, but at WDW they are just part of the already massive experience. This is why HP wouldn't have had the impact for Disney as it did for US. That's why it wasn't as valuable to Disney and their passing wasn't an embarrassing mistake, just a decision.

I'm done trying to defend my love of Disney. I would bet my next trip, I've spent quite a bit more time and money at Disney than you have. I'm just calling it like I see it. I'm not a thrill ride junkie myself, and I love what people would call the "kiddie" rides at Disney. However, to say they're putting 100% into the place is bull crap.

Seas With Nemo is lazy and many scenes are already broken.
Soarin', they couldn't be bothered to even create a Florida film. The one they have now isn't even digital.
Gran Fiesta Tour is an embarrassment to Mexico.
Prince Caspian - Enough said.
Everest, while tremendous fun, is missing the entire story to the ride and they STILL haven't fixed it.

This is just recent stuff. Have you been on the Animation Tour at DHS lately? THAT is the animation tour of the largest animation movie company in the world?

 

[captainkidd]

You really can't be serious about that?

If he is, then this entire conversation is pointless. Just because an attraction has long lines, doesn't mean it's cutting edge (ie Soarin').

TSM, while cute, is hardly a cutting edge immersive experience. And to say it's done to DHS what HP has done to IOA is absolutely absurd.

 

[stlbobby]

You really can't be serious about that?

If he is, then this entire conversation is pointless. Just because an attraction has long lines, doesn't mean it's cutting edge (ie Soarin').

TSM, while cute, is hardly a cutting edge immersive experience. And to say it's done to DHS what HP has done to IOA is absolutely absurd.

I never said Toy Story was to DHS as HP was to IoA. I said people discount it because they don't like it. And if you don't see the magic in Toy Story then you are denying reality. The cue is amazing. Potato Head is hilarious. You really feel like a toy walking through a boy's bedroom.

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's not cutting edge.

I'm done trying to defend my love of Disney. I would bet my next trip, I've spent quite a bit more time and money at Disney than you have. I'm just calling it like I see it. I'm not a thrill ride junkie myself, and I love what people would call the "kiddie" rides at Disney. However, to say they're putting 100% into the place is bull crap.

Seas With Nemo is lazy and many scenes are already broken.
Soarin', they couldn't be bothered to even create a Florida film. The one they have now isn't even digital.
Gran Fiesta Tour is an embarrassment to Mexico.
Prince Caspian - Enough said.
Everest, while tremendous fun, is missing the entire story to the ride and they STILL haven't fixed it.

This is just recent stuff. Have you been on the Animation Tour at DHS lately? THAT is the animation tour of the largest animation movie company in the world?

What you've done here is take things I didn't mention and use them as the examples of non-innovation. I don't think anyone will ever cite Prince Caspian as a highlight of Disney.

You have also changed your argument. Originally you said Disney was doing nothing. Now you are saying they are doing the wrong things. So what is your argument? Again you are just discounting Disney because they are trying to appeal to a different audience than you.

BTW-Film is better than digital. Real projected film has better color saturation and warmer tones than a digital simulation. Just like an LP record is better than a CD, and light-years ahead of an MP3. Digital is the "lazy" option because it takes much less maintenance.

 

[invader]

While Disney and Universal serve the same purpose, they don't serve the same audience. There are numerous rides at Disney that offer to younger children and some that offer to older age groups. When I see Universal I think of strictly older groups as there is only one ride that would be suitable for a little one (The Cat in The Hat). I just don't think comparing the two is even right.

 

[DisneyFan 2000]

I'm not trying to compare those things to HP, but to say WDW has just sat stagnate isn't giving them credit for what they have done

Not once in this thread have I said Disney has been stagnate with its' additions. I will claim, firmly and rightly so in my opinion, that the additions made have been less than impressive, especially when compared with past achievements (Splash Mountain, IJA, Tower of Terror, Pirates, Haunted Mansion).

And the claim about saying these things only because I don't enjoy them? Hardly. Just last week I experienced Star Tours 2 and had a BLAST. Nemo's Submarine Voyage was fun and imaginative as were the new parades and shows I managed to catch. HOWEVER, all these are far from cutting edge experiences. I'm sure guests love them. Heck, I loved them. But to say Disney can keep opening up just these type of attractions and call themselves the "frontiers of themepark entertainment" (and animation for that matter) is a ridiculous claim. If Universal keeps up this type of project development and Disney remains indifferent to it, the tables will turn against Disney.

For the record, no, I don't think Universal numbers will ever surpass the MK's numbers, however MGM, AK and even Epcot aren't immune to competition.

 

[captainkidd]

I never said Toy Story was to DHS as HP was to IoA. I said people discount it because they don't like it. And if you don't see the magic in Toy Story then you are denying reality. The cue is amazing. Potato Head is hilarious. You really feel like a toy walking through a boy's bedroom.

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's not cutting edge.



What you've done here is take things I didn't mention and use them as the examples of non-innovation. I don't think anyone will ever cite Prince Caspian as a highlight of Disney.

You have also changed your argument. Originally you said Disney was doing nothing. Now you are saying they are doing the wrong things. So what is your argument? Again you are just discounting Disney because they are trying to appeal to a different audience than you.

BTW-Film is better than digital. Real projected film has better color saturation and warmer tones than a digital simulation. Just like an LP record is better than a CD, and light-years ahead of an MP3. Digital is the "lazy" option because it takes much less maintenance.

You are putting words into my mouth. Whatever it is - Doing nothing or being lazy with what they've done.

This is the biggest difference between people that like and Universal and people that dislike Universal - You refuse to accept the fact that anyone can love both parks. Many people do. You just assume if someone likes and appreciates the effort that Universal has put into the resort, that they dislike Disney because it's to childish for them.

You know nothing about me, and the fact that you seem to think I don't love Disney is just ridiculous.

Don't give me the film versus digital argument. That only holds water if the film is in pristine condition, which Soarin' is not. Are you going to try and convince me VHS looks better than Blu-ray as well?

 

[stlbobby]

Not once in this thread have I said Disney has been stagnate with its' additions. I will claim, firmly and rightly so in my opinion, that the additions made have been less than impressive, especially when compared with past achievements (Splash Mountain, IJA, Tower of Terror, Pirates, Haunted Mansion).

And the claim about saying these things only because I don't enjoy them? Hardly. Just last week I experienced Star Tours 2 and had a BLAST. Nemo's Submarine Voyage was fun and imaginative as were the new parades and shows I managed to catch. HOWEVER, all these are far from cutting edge experiences. I'm sure guests love them. Heck, I loved them. But to say Disney can keep opening up just these type of attractions and call themselves the "frontiers of themepark entertainment" (and animation for that matter) is a ridiculous claim. If Universal keeps up this type of project development and Disney remains indifferent to it, the tables will turn against Disney.

For the record, no, I don't think Universal numbers will ever surpass the MK's numbers, however MGM, AK and even Epcot aren't immune to competition.

I was specifically referring to another poster's characterization when I used the word stagnate, but your statements on this thread seem to support that contention without using that exact word.

This post itself continues your rant about how they have done nothing cutting edge and that will eventually bite them, which implies stagnation. When in reality you just don't like the things they have done and discount them.

Toy Story is cutting edge it combines the fun of a carnival with a video game with 3-D with immersive effects. People love it. The Potato Head in the cue that interacts with guests is awesome.

Toy Story lets guest interact with a ride rather than just watch it happen. That is cutting edge. The technology may not be super sophisticated, but the idea and concept are cutting edge.

 

[stlbobby]

You are putting words into my mouth. Whatever it is - Doing nothing or being lazy with what they've done.

Don't give me the film versus digital argument. That only holds water if the film is in pristine condition, which Soarin' is not. Are you going to try and convince me VHS looks better than Blu-ray as well?

Who's putting words in who's mouth? Previously you took an argument I made citing Soarin' and The Jedi Training Academy and used Prince Caspian and the Gran Fiesta Tour to refute it.

This is the biggest difference between people that like and Universal and people that dislike Universal - You refuse to accept the fact that anyone can love both parks. Many people do. You just assume if someone likes and appreciates the effort that Universal has put into the resort, that they dislike Disney because it's to childish for them.

I have not said one derogatory thing about US on this thread. In fact my original point, which I have reiterated several times, is that this was a huge win for US, but it wasn't a death knell for Disney.

You know nothing about me, and the fact that you seem to think I don't love Disney is just ridiculous.

I haven't said one thing about you or your love of Disney. I have only reacted to your comments. You have done nothing but state that Disney doesn't innovate, makes stupid decisions, and are lazy, and then balked at being called a hater. I'll post your previous comments below so I won't be accused of putting words in your mouth.

How dumb must Disney feel about this? This could have possibly put a nail in Universal's coffin, and instead, they're now a SERIOUS competitor to Disney.

The fact of the matter is Disney had a shot at HP. They turned it down because they were too cheap. That looked bad. Now, seeing how Universal has been so successful with it just makes Disney look stupid.

I'm a Disney fanatic, I hate HP, and even I can see they screwed up big time. Anyone who doesn't see it just being ignorant.

TSM, while cute, is hardly a cutting edge immersive experience. And to say it's done to DHS what HP has done to IOA is absolutely absurd.

Now where would I get the idea to characterize you as a Disney hater?

 

[captainkidd]

Now where would I get the idea to characterize you as a Disney hater?

So, in other words, love Disney and everything they do, or you're a hater?

Gotcha!

 

[stlbobby]

So, in other words, love Disney and everything they do, or you're a hater?

Gotcha!

Again you are putting words in my mouth.

I never said you have to love everything they do, but a long series of threads stating Disney, "screwed up big time," is "dumb," "cheap," and "stupid," among other insults stated and implied, without one positive thing to say, is a far cry from realistic constructive evaluation or criticism.

Additionally you called anyone who disagreed with you "ignorant."

Where do you think people get ideas about you. It's from your posts.

You made a ridiculous overstatement in your first series of posts and have used a succession of illogic, contradictions, and mutating arguments in a poor attempt to defend an indefensible stance.

Now since you can't defend you original contention, that passing on HP was an embarrassing mistake for WDW, you will try and nitpick every word I type, confuse arguments, and flail wildly at simple statements, rather than try and actually read my contentions or form a credible response of your own.

You over reacted. I stated you over reacted. You over reacted further. You bashed everything Disney, denied their successes, and spewed contradicting arguments, while never really responding to what I was saying.

Now that you have been soundly trounced, you are throwing a temper tantrum over being called a hater, by someone you derisively and unprovoked called ignorant--just because they disagreed with you. Don't try and deny that--your post clearly states, "Anyone who doesn't see it just being ignorant." The grammatical error and sentiment are directly from your post.

 

[maxairmike]

I would also be extremely interested to know exactly how long those exclusive deals last. Either way, Disney will develop the other Marvel Characters and sit back and reap the profits US is now paying to their main competitor, and bring Marvel into WDW in a targeted way to maximize merchandise and provide a bit of interest to teen boys.

I'll attempt to clear up the contract issue (yet again). Directly from the Universal/Marvel contract relating to its use at IoA:

III. TERM
Once THE MARVEL UNIVERSE opens within the above time period, the term of this agreement shall continue for so long as a THE MARVEL UNIVERSE shall remain open (and operated consistent with the standards of the next paragraph below) at any Universal Theme Park (allowing for temporary closures for force majeure events or refurbishment/maintenance provided they are being diligently pursued), except for termination for material breach (with written notice and a reasonable opportunity to cure).
Each THE MARVEL UNIVERSE shall be operated and maintained in a first class manner consistent with the highest standards of the theme park industry and shall be deemed “open” only when operated in such manner (subject to temporary closures for force majeure events as described in the prior paragraph).

7
At such time as any THE MARVEL UNIVERSE is no longer open at a particular Universal Theme Park, all exclusivity and marketing rights acquired by MCA as a result of the opening of such THE MARVEL UNIVERSE at such Universal Theme Park, as set forth in Section IV below, shall terminate and this Agreement shall thereafter be construed as if the notice of intent to open THE MARVEL UNIVERSE had not been given by MCA.

In other words, as long as Universal wishes to keep Marvel-themed attractions operating at IoA, the license endures. This is, in effect, a perpetual license. What follows is the region-specific language that most refer to when mentioning that DLR is pretty much free to use any Marvel characters in their parks, while WDW is basically limited to nothing Marvel outside of selling merchandise.

i. East of The Mississippi - any other theme park is limited to using characters not currently being used by MCA at the time such other license is granted. [For purpose of this subsection and subsection iv, a character is “being used by MCA” if (x) it or another character of the same “family” (e.g., any member of THE FANTASTIC FOUR, THE AVENGERS or villains associated with a hero being used) is more than an incidental element of an attraction, is presented as a costumed character, or is more than an incidental element of the theming of a retail store or food facility; and, (y) in addition, if such character or another character from the same “family” is an element in any MCA marketing during the previous year. Any character who is only used as a costume character will not be considered to be “being used by MCA” unless it appears as more than an incidental element in MCA’s marketing.]

10
ii. West of The Mississippi - any other theme park may use any Marvel characters whether or not used by MCA.

iii. East or West of The Mississippi - permitted uses shall be limited to the use of specific Marvel characters and Marvel may not permit a licensee to use the name “Marvel” as part of the attraction name or marketing.

iv. East or West of The Mississippi - The foregoing permitted uses will be subject to the following marketing restrictions:

(a)
If the particular character is used by MCA (as defined above), such character will not be advertised or promoted East of The Mississippi, except by means of national Network buys


11
of television, within printed materials such as brochures, or by print advertisements in periodicals directed to readers more than 300 miles from Orlando; and with regard to any of the foregoing permitted marketing, if the marketing is for a group of theme parks located both East and West of The Mississippi, the marketing shall make abundantly clear that the character only appears in the parks West of The Mississippi and shall not be subject to confusion on such point (such as would occur by visual inclusion of the character in a generic, multipark advertisement subject to a small print explanation of the parks where the character is present).

12
(b) If the particular character is not used by MCA, such character will not be advertised or promoted by means of (x) spot television buys, billboards, personal appearances, or print advertisements which are (y) viewed, located or primarily directed to persons within 300 miles of Orlando. In other words, regional (i.e. covering a multi-state geographic region) or national television or print media buys, or brochures would not be prohibited within such 300 mile radius.

The "family" clause makes the implementation of any Marvel character particularly difficult, as it would appear Universal covered their bases fairly well by incorporating at least one member of each "family" into an important feature of the Island. This makes the use of any character from those families contractually impossible.

There is another small section of the contract which should also be of significant interest to anyone of the opinion that future Marvel properties/characters can be used by WDW if they would so choose.

Universal Theme Park (Orlando) and an exclusive world-wide option to utilize the Marvel characters in additional THE MARVEL UNIVERSES in any other Universal Theme Parks, which initial option must be exercised during the two year period beginning on the date of the opening of THE MARVEL UNIVERSE in the Universal Theme Park (Orlando). The present inventory of the Marvel characters is set forth in the schedule to be attached or provided by Marvel promptly after execution hereof, plus any characters developed or acquired or licensed in the future by Marvel which (x) are marketed under the Marvel “Banner” or (y) were previously marketed under the Marvel “Banner” during the term hereof and are subsequently marketed under the “Banner” of a Marvel Related Company (defined below).

 

[captainkidd]

Additionally you called anyone who disagreed with you "ignorant."

No I didn't.

Where do you think people get ideas about you. It's from your posts.

You get your ideas from misinterpreting them.

You made a ridiculous overstatement in your first series of posts and have used a succession of illogic, contradictions, and mutating arguments in a poor attempt to defend an indefensible stance.

Opinion.

Now since you can't defend you original contention, that passing on HP was an embarrassing mistake for WDW, you will try and nitpick every word I type, confuse arguments, and flail wildly at simple statements, rather than try and actually read my contentions or form a credible response of your own.

Who says I can't defend my original contention? Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean I've changed my stance or it holds any less water.

You over reacted. I stated you over reacted. You over reacted further. You bashed everything Disney, denied their successes, and spewed contradicting arguments, while never really responding to what I was saying.

How did I overreact? I didn't bash "everything" Disney does. Nor did I deny their success.

Now that you have been soundly trounced, you are throwing a temper tantrum over being called a hater, by someone you derisively and unprovoked called ignorant--just because they disagreed with you. Don't try and deny that--your post clearly states, "Anyone who doesn't see it just being ignorant." The grammatical error and sentiment are directly from your post.

If we're going to pick apart grammatical mistakes, "illogic" isn't a word. I'm not calling you personally ignorant. I'm saying that denying that Disney screwed up by not going after HP is ignorant. I say this because truly, for the first time, they let someone else prove that someone could do something as good, if not better, than Disney could. It's an opinion I have of this particular issue, not you overall. I'm sure there are several other things we'd see eye to eye on.

 

[stlbobby]

I'll attempt to clear up the contract issue (yet again). Directly from the Universal/Marvel contract relating to its use at IoA:



In other words, as long as Universal wishes to keep Marvel-themed attractions operating at IoA, the license endures. This is, in effect, a perpetual license. What follows is the region-specific language that most refer to when mentioning that DLR is pretty much free to use any Marvel characters in their parks, while WDW is basically limited to nothing Marvel outside of selling merchandise.



The "family" clause makes the implementation of any Marvel character particularly difficult, as it would appear Universal covered their bases fairly well by incorporating at least one member of each "family" into an important feature of the Island. This makes the use of any character from those families contractually impossible.

There is another small section of the contract which should also be of significant interest to anyone of the opinion that future Marvel properties/characters can be used by WDW if they would so choose.

Thanks for the info. That is good to know.

 

[stlbobby]

Additionally you called anyone who disagreed with you "ignorant."

No I didn't.

Where do you think people get ideas about you. It's from your posts.

You get your ideas from misinterpreting them.

You made a ridiculous overstatement in your first series of posts and have used a succession of illogic, contradictions, and mutating arguments in a poor attempt to defend an indefensible stance.

Opinion.

Now since you can't defend you original contention, that passing on HP was an embarrassing mistake for WDW, you will try and nitpick every word I type, confuse arguments, and flail wildly at simple statements, rather than try and actually read my contentions or form a credible response of your own.

Who says I can't defend my original contention? Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean I've changed my stance or it holds any less water.

You over reacted. I stated you over reacted. You over reacted further. You bashed everything Disney, denied their successes, and spewed contradicting arguments, while never really responding to what I was saying.

How did I overreact? I didn't bash "everything" Disney does. Nor did I deny their success.

Now that you have been soundly trounced, you are throwing a temper tantrum over being called a hater, by someone you derisively and unprovoked called ignorant--just because they disagreed with you. Don't try and deny that--your post clearly states, "Anyone who doesn't see it just being ignorant." The grammatical error and sentiment are directly from your post.

If we're going to pick apart grammatical mistakes, "illogic" isn't a word. I'm not calling you personally ignorant. I'm saying that denying that Disney screwed up by not going after HP is ignorant. It's an opinion I have of this particular issue, not the person overall. I'm sure there are several other things we'd see eye to eye on.

Again you haven't done anything to support you original argument all you have done is nitpick, which I said you would do, because you know your position is indefensible.

I'm only going to reply to three points here. You called me, as part of the larger group of people who disagreed with you ignorant, in post #23, which I have quoted at least three times in this thread and I will repost below:

I'm a Disney fanatic, I hate HP, and even I can see they screwed up big time. Anyone who doesn't see it just being ignorant.

So explain how I am misinterpreting this post or putting words in your mouth? You clearly state, well for want of a verb you clearly state, that those who disagree with you, a group of which I am clearly part, are "ignorant". This is an example of poor rhetoric, when you can't defend your point you attack your opponent.

Secondly, I am not misinterpreting your statements. I'm not going to repost all of your hate again. I've repeatedly pointed out all of your derogatory language and you clearly aren't reading it or just denying it. When you call an organization "stupid" and all of the other things you have, and aggressively defend the stance that they have a history of making bad decisions and exploiting their guests, all of which you have done on this thread, without acknowledging anything positive and discounting their successes, you are hating. Words like "stupid," and "cheap," aren't open for interpretation. They are negative words. Period.

Finally, it is my opinion that your original contention was ridiculous, but it is a fact that you can't defend it because you haven't. You have not made one single cogent argument defending your point. You have used all of the confusion techniques I cited earlier to do anything but argue your thesis. Due to the fact that you have proven your original contention indefensible by not defending it my assertion becomes the accepted standard.