Matt_Black
Well-Known Member
In fact, I think Disney technically lists it as part of Liberty Square now.
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Possible Frontierland expansion
- Thread starter doctornick
- Start date
In fact, I think Disney technically lists it as part of Liberty Square now.
MerlinTheGoat
Well-Known Member
They do on the newer maps, which IS actually taking things a bit too far IMO in breaking the theme (given it's blatant western influence)-
Liberty Square represents the colonial states, Frontierland i'd say is anything from Tennessee (Davy Crockett's home) and further west. I'm all for keeping theme and structure in a land, i'm usually very strict myself in this matter. But again the original designers were never THAT strict even back in the 70's by putting the western saloon themed Diamond Horseshoe right in between Liberty Square and the Mark Twain stuff. Instead of over near the Big Thunder area.
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lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
The West as an idea was much larger than the contemporary association only with the deserts of the southwest.
Bocabear
Well-Known Member
In the early 1970s when the park was designed and built, Big Thunder area was not even there. There was a small train station near the Parade Gate, and a landing for TSI...that was it. Liberty Square was never intended to be a full land, but more a stylistic spot and place for The Hall Of Presidents to sit. If you want to nitpick, The Haunted Mansion's Gothic infused style also does not fit the time or era of Liberty Square...So...I think within the context of the park it all works... If you want to get upset about something aim more at Monsters Inc in TOmorrowland...and Stitch, and the Grand Prix Speedway...none of those have anything to do with TOmorrowland... and the Grand Prix was original to the park... so go figure...They do on the newer maps, which IS actually taking things a bit too far IMO in breaking the theme (given it's blatant western influence)-
Liberty Square represents the colonial states, Frontierland i'd say is anything from Tennessee (Davy Crockett's home) and further west. I'm all for keeping theme and structure in a land, i'm usually very strict myself in this matter. But again the original designers were never THAT strict even back in the 70's by putting the western saloon themed Diamond Horseshoe right in between Liberty Square and the Mark Twain stuff. Instead of over near the Big Thunder area.
MerlinTheGoat
Well-Known Member
The concept of Frontierland though is very liberal in the areas it includes. Liberty Square includes the colonial areas, the east coast (generally northern) states. Frontierland as a concept has included US areas starting as far east as Tennessee (which is separated from the Atlantic Ocean by only a single state), but stretching all the way to western states. I never claimed that the "west" as an idea was just southern states or deserts, don't even know where you'd get that from...
My point was that even the original designers of Frontierland were not 100% strict about the chronological or geographical placement of attractions within the land. Diamond Horseshoe is a good example of this given its close proximity to Liberty Square, in spite of it being inspired by shows most common and well known to be present in some of the western-most states. And chronologically shows like Diamond Horseshoe were more common AFTER the era when Davy Crockett was alive, or even after the fictional events of Mark Twain's literature. Davy Crockett's era was during the late 1700's and early 1800's, Tom Sawyer was set in the 1840's apparently. But old western shows like Diamond Horseshoe were more common in the late 1800's and even as recent as the early 1900's. So again its placement is not chronologically in order where it is either.
I'm really not upset about the placements within Liberty Square and Frontierland. My point was merely that it's kind of odd to me to be nitpicking Splash Mountain's placement when even founding attractions in the lands were not strictly placed 100% chronologically and geographically accurate either. There is a logical geographical and chronological layout to the land, but it was never super strict to begin with and I don't think Splash Mountain ruins this either.
I am aware Big Thunder wasn't there originally. Though that area was originally going to contain a ride involving a lot of desert scenery. We all know what happened to that though...
The only thing I grumble about with regards to Frontierland (besides never getting WRE) is that the original Diamond Horseshoe no longer plays. An infinitely bigger and more legitimate problem than griping about whether Splash Mountain (an awesome ride that would be truly sad to lose) fits in that specific area of the land. There are infinitely more grievous placement issues elsewhere.
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The Empress Lilly
Well-Known Member
But people do care. They just can't articulate why Disney parks have such great theming, and why local knock-offs parks don't. People may not understand the theory, or notice the subtleties, but they can judge the final product. Unless you aim for the public that really doesn't understand very much, and then you can sell them Turkey legs and celeb toons and public chanting as the world's greatest Western-inspired theme park experience.
Splash works in DL, in a Critter Country land together with toon bears. Splash in WDW is a mismatch, a mistaken copy-paste. Splash is a mismatch because it features cartoon characters (no, toons are not real and do not mix with human being in the same reality) in a human environment, and because it is geographically off. (Yes, we blissfully ignore the singing bears for the moment. =D )
The geographical mismatch is actually twofold, externally and internally. Externally Splash is a Southern wet area transplanted in a Southwestern desert area.Which ruins the effect coming both from Frontierland and from Adventureland (which so beautifully connected the Caribbean to the Spanish Southwest). To soften this, Splash's exterior is more Southwestern in WDW, which results in Splash being an internal mismatch, a story set in the South presented in a Southwestern setting.
This double mismatch makes Splash akin to the thematic equivalent of a Frozen ride in WS Germany.
mahnamahna101
Well-Known Member
At this point, closing anything down would be two steps forward, one step back for MK. They're better off expanding as much as they can until they've completely run out of expansion space.
Buzz is definitely a draw to Tomorrowland. 50-70 min waits, usually. Especially during a thunderstorm.
Well then, a huge step for Tomorrowland would be to give the PeopleMover actual substance. So much of the TTA is empty tunnels with zero narration. Adding show scenes inside the tunnels would bring Tomorrowland to life and make the PeopleMover a must-see C-ticket.
Tomorrowland has a lot of wasted potential:
Stitch's Great Escape always half-full
Carousel of Progress always half-full
The PeopleMover not having a lot of substance inside the tunnels (if space is an issue, screen-based show scenes would be perfect)
Nothing on top of CoP (a B/C)
Nothing between Space/CoP (a C/D)
the Main Street parking lot (new attraction behind Buzz)
The Speedway (either make it futuristic, or demo it for Fantasyland)
The space behind the Speedway/Space Mt. (could fit 3-4 attractions)
Tomorrowland Terrace not being open regularly
Expanding/revamping Tomorrowland could help out considerably with MK capacity. There's room for 6-7 new attractions for Tomorrowland and 2-3 new attractions for Fantasyland if they properly used the space.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
Tennessee is part of Frontierland because it was the frontier. Saloon with entertainment go back before the contemporary, popular notion of being the hallmark of the desert southwest you point as being their time period.
Wikkler
Well-Known Member
This is, I believe, the same person who said Dumbo should be rethemed.
mahnamahna101
Well-Known Member
Well then that's all I need to know
Dumbo, the Tea Cups, Astro Orbiter and Carousel are all MK staples until its final day of operation, too.
Dumbo has been a part of WDW advertising for decades... it'll never leave.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
Nothing at the parks should be sacred. They should all be expendable for something stronger.Well then that's all I need to know
Dumbo, the Tea Cups, Astro Orbiter and Carousel are all MK staples until its final day of operation, too.
Dumbo has been a part of WDW advertising for decades... it'll never leave.
We talked about this not too long ago on this board, but the Diamond Horseshoe has always been part of Liberty Square, I believe. The breezeway to Adventureland demarcates the transition between Liberty Square to Frontierland and the DH is on the LS side of that. It obviously thematically belongs in Frontierland, but I don't think the WDI designers were sticklers to the degree that many fans are.
Good.
Matt_Black
Well-Known Member
If we're REALLY going to be pedantic, then Country Bears is out of place because a) the bears hail from all over what would be considered the west, and b) the show seems to draw heavily from the medicine show tradition, which was arguably at it's height from the 1890s-1920s, if memory serves.
ToTBellHop
Well-Known Member
No one truly thinks Splash should close or be rethemed. It's a great ride. That doesn't mean we can't wish it was placed in an appropriate location to begin with. It should be in Fantasyland. That would also be a more appealing location for the park's 3rd mountain. But, it's been where it is for more than two decades and it's a wonderful ride, so it's water under the bridge now.
Kinda like Tower of Terror, which also doesn't belong at the end of a 1940s street. Great rides get to bend the rules a bit. This is what worries me about Frozen Ever After, actually--poorly placed AND potentially a crappy ride? Ugh.
Kinda like Tower of Terror, which also doesn't belong at the end of a 1940s street. Great rides get to bend the rules a bit. This is what worries me about Frozen Ever After, actually--poorly placed AND potentially a crappy ride? Ugh.
Matt_Black
Well-Known Member
ToTBellHop
Well-Known Member
I notice you cut the context out in your quote of me. I said we can wish it was in an appropriate location to begin with--which would have been Fantasyland. But it's water under the bridge. Unlike some here, I don't expect WDW to ever actually move a ride.
Yes, the appropriate place for an American Southern log flume would be in a European medieval castle themed land.
As an aside, I always find it funny when people lament Splash's placement in Frontierland in MK but praise it's location in DL. Because "Critter Country" is such a pinnacle of themed experience -- English stuffed animals, Southern anthropomorphic animals and canoes associated with Davy Crockett (?) are such a unified theme.
jdmdisney99
Well-Known Member
So I assume you were one of the people cheering the removal of 19th century submarines from said land?Yes, the appropriate place for an American Southern log flume would be in a European medieval castle themed land.