Possible Frontierland expansion

[MerlinTheGoat]

Because it doesn't exist!

You know what i've been craving?

 

[LuvtheGoof]

You know what i've been craving?

Well, you won't find too much of that around here anymore.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Yes, but giving the MK and Epcot a few more high quality attractions will also help spread the crowds and make days enjoyable.

Guests don't like waiting in queues no matter how nice they are.

As has been discussed above, more high quality attractions will not ease crowding, they will drive more people into the park. More people than those attractions can hold.... unless they have giant queues. I'm not saying WDW should stop adding attractions, I'm saying that all the queues should be upgraded.

And as mentioned, people aren't complaining about the wait for FoP because it is so well themed. If you keep making this about current queues, then you're correct, people hate them. Queues which have entertainment, interactivity, controlled environment are so much better than an outdoor switchback. They can increase customer satisfaction and hold crowds and reduce crowding.

 

[Malrora73]

I actually disagree here. Aside from Mine Train, Fantasyland expansion did exactly what it was supposed to do from a crowds standpoint. Mermaid is a people eater and the capacity increase to Dumbo has helped significantly. Aesthetically, they entire area is very well executed (except for the Beast's castle, which you said).

Since I called for the execution of the Speedway in the previous post, I'll use this one for my less realistic call to action, relocation of "it's a small world". Here's what I would do:

• Relocate "it's a small world" to Showcase Plaza in Epcot. Remove the existing building in Fantasyland.
• Remove (potentially relocate) Pinocchio's Village Haus
• Keep the exterior facade for Enchanted Tales with Belle but use it as the entrance to the Beauty and the Beast Dark Ride. The removal of Pinocchio's Village Haus will push the utilidoor entrance further North
• Expand the Tangled area along the side of The Haunted Mansion. This can include a dark ride and a Snuggly Duckling Restaurant
• Expand the Mountain facade from Be Our Guest the length of the road that currently travels behind "It's a small world" and use it as a backdrop for a Frozen attraction.
  
• In theory, this could also allow room for a Peter Pan/Tinkerbell Flat ride.

With this, you've removed attraction capacity in the form of "it's a small world" and "Enchanted Tales with Belle" but gained it with a Tangled, Frozen and Beauty and the Beast ride.

I love the idea of relocating It's a Small World to Epcot, I would personally put it between the two Merchandise buildings at the entrance to the World Showcase. I would also relocate Pinocchio's Village Haus to the Italian Pavillion. I would put a Beauty and the Beast dark attraction where the Village Haus was and the Snuggly Duckling restraunt where It's A Small World was. I would change Columbia Harbor House into Tiana's Palace because I feel it's a more natural transition from Fantasyland into Liberty Square, and with the voodoo element in the story being right across the way from Haunted Mansion makes sense. If they ever do a Neverland expansion or change Tom Sawyer's Island into that, I would move Peter Pan's Flight there, and then put a Frozen ride where PPF was. If they do an Adventureland expansion I would want the Volcano/ Polynesian village Moana section, a Cave of Wonders attraction, and an elaborately BOG style themed Tortuga Tavern. I'd also like to see a Brave attraction but it would probably fit better in the U.K. Pavilion at Epcot. There is just so much they could do with all the intellectual property they have today.

 

[Malrora73]

I love the thoughrts of this, but if The Enchanted Tiki Room is in a village at the base of the volcano, that would mean that the Jungle Cruise would be under the mountain...along with the Swiss Family Robinson treehouse... It would have to be really spectacular to say goodbye to both of those attractions.... Unless they completely revamped the jungle cruie as part of the new addition...Gave the sets a little more animation and motion, and maybe had some more of the ride indoors seamlessly...

They are talking about expanding Adventureland and moving ETR to where the expansion would be. They would probably replace ETR with a different attraction, M&G, or restaurant.

 

[Timothy_Q]

And I can't even remotely describe my disappointment when I am in DL and instead of Hyperspace Mountain I get "Ghost Galaxy"-Stuff. So visiting DL during Halloween season is impossible as well.

Lol Hyperspace Mountain is an overlay too...

 

[lazyboy97o]

As has been discussed above, more high quality attractions will not ease crowding, they will drive more people into the park. More people than those attractions can hold.... unless they have giant queues. I'm not saying WDW should stop adding attractions, I'm saying that all the queues should be upgraded.

And as mentioned, people aren't complaining about the wait for FoP because it is so well themed. If you keep making this about current queues, then you're correct, people hate them. Queues which have entertainment, interactivity, controlled environment are so much better than an outdoor switchback. They can increase customer satisfaction and hold crowds and reduce crowding.

A more elaborate queue is typically going to hold fewer people per square foot, so you face a reduction in capacity. The problem throughout central Florida is an over focus on marquee attractions. Parks lack small experiences that are discovered and fill out a day.

 

[Bocabear]

hold crowds and reduce crowds?

 

[Bocabear]

Only two ways to do this...Build more attractions to spread the crowds out...or limit gate entry to reduce the amount of guests in each park...as long as they are continuing to over-market the parks, there is going to be a glut of people looking for somethng to do, and when you have a management team that is averse to building new rides and attractions it is going to be a mess...it is a mess now because they have allowed the park to languish for far too long.

 

[marni1971]

As has been discussed above, more high quality attractions will not ease crowding, they will drive more people into the park..

In a park that's still horrendously overcrowded more and more they still haven't reached the balance of coping with demand vs driving demand.

Everything is being done to try to cope without adding more real estate.

 

[Goob]

Gee, that's just great.

 

[ToTBellHop]

In a park that's still horrendously overcrowded more and more they still haven't reached the balance of coping with demand vs driving demand.

Everything is being done to try to cope without adding more real estate.

They should open mediocre things that will eat people but not drive demand. Keep Stitch open year-round. Give Surprise FPs to Tom Sawyer Island. Serve mini churros at CBJ. Hide a Mickey's Premium Bar somewhere in Swiss Family each morning. Expand Sorcerer's to the bus loop. Hula hoops in the Hub (wait they already do that). Invite guests to get drunk (wait they already do that). Dance parties in Tomorrowland (wait they already do that).

 

[jt04]

I forgot another aspect of the volcano expansion of AL. It is a PERFECT backgr


Do you have a picture of that central mountain available?

http://www.wdwmagic.com/attractions...-new-fantasyland-concept-art.htm#&gid=1&pid=1

 

[HauntedPirate]

A more elaborate queue is typically going to hold fewer people per square foot, so you face a reduction in capacity. The problem throughout central Florida is an over focus on marquee attractions. Parks lack small experiences that are discovered and fill out a day.

Exactly. They need only look at Disneyland for an example of how to do this successfully. For each big attraction, there are a number of smaller ones to help balance them. Space, Matterhorn, Splash, HM, Pirates... balanced out with Alice, Peter Pan, Casey Jr., Storybook Land, Pinocchio, Buzz, Mr. Toad, etc.

 

[deWild]

A true expansion brings not only the ride, it brings shops and restaurants and walking areas. Besides big rides which work as people eater, that's what really increases capacity, areas where people walk, sit and talk, enjoy the kinetics and entertainment, all those design features and elements that made Disney parks so special.
Just imagine what the AL expansion would mean for the capacity of the MK, a new attraction on E-Ticket level, lets call it Fire Mountain or JttCotE, with very elaborate queueing areas, that alone soak up hundreds of waiting guests, the new reimaged Tiki-Room as the second attraction in a Polynesian village setting at the base of the Volcano, 3 shops with 2 Attraction related gift shops that sell merchandise, one for the E-Ticket, one for the Tiki Room and a third shop for aloha shirts, polynesian pop artifacts, tiki culture etc. Add a table service restaurant like the Ohana in the Poly and a CS-restaurant like Captain Cooks (Which serves TONGA TOAST for breakfast) only in the scale of Columbia Harbor House or Cosmic Rays, the new Aloha Isle and M+G areas for Moana and the new expansion is complete. The entire land offers brillant views of the volcano, the new weenie of AL and crowds are waiting to see the different eruption patterns, like at Mt. Prometheus in TDS. The square footage of the area alone can take up thousands of guests more with the attractions, their queueing areas and shops and the restaurants.

If I worked at imagineering, I'd have a job description with "reserved for this guy" plastered on it. Seriously though, I would argue that Adventureland in some aspects needs an expansion/overhaul more so than anywhere else at the MK. It's difficult to breathe let alone move during busy days in AL. The path is much too narrow near Jungle Cruise, which isn't helped by a spinner flat ride themed to Aladdin that sits in the direct center of the sidewalk. Blow the Treehouse out if you have to.

Since I called for the execution of the Speedway in the previous post, I'll use this one for my less realistic call to action, relocation of "it's a small world". Here's what I would do:

• Relocate "it's a small world" to Showcase Plaza in Epcot. Remove the existing building in Fantasyland.
• Remove (potentially relocate) Pinocchio's Village Haus
• Keep the exterior facade for Enchanted Tales with Belle but use it as the entrance to the Beauty and the Beast Dark Ride. The removal of Pinocchio's Village Haus will push the utilidoor entrance further North
• Expand the Tangled area along the side of The Haunted Mansion. This can include a dark ride and a Snuggly Duckling Restaurant
• Expand the Mountain facade from Be Our Guest the length of the road that currently travels behind "It's a small world" and use it as a backdrop for a Frozen attraction.
  
• In theory, this could also allow room for a Peter Pan/Tinkerbell Flat ride.

With this, you've removed attraction capacity in the form of "it's a small world" and "Enchanted Tales with Belle" but gained it with a Tangled, Frozen and Beauty and the Beast ride.

If I was Oprah, I'd be handing out a job to you, too. Moving small world to Epcot actually solves quite a few expansion problems, such as making a loop around Tom Sawyer.

I'm also on board with removing Pinocchio's for a BatB dark ride. One, it makes sense to use existing infrastructure such as Enchanted Tales as the queue line for a new attraction. From my understanding, management LOVES when you reuse and save them money. Two, GF used to work there and the stories that came out of her mouth were... horrifying. Makes me wonder if all food service down there is similar.

I'm not certain you can push the utilidor entrance any further north though. The drop is already high enough as it is, and moving the entrance or pushing earth to bolster a new foundation is expensive.

 

[deWild]

But managing through the crowds at MK is miserable. The hub helps and truly makes getting around MK much less stressful, but there are still so many choke points just getting through Main Street that I wish they would open a '1st and 2nd' street with store entrances and theming on the exit only alleys. Plus there are a ton of other choke points that need addressing at the park, things I was hoping would be worked on after the hub opened.

Fully theming the alleyway adjacent to Main Street would be a terrific idea. I've been on board with this idea after I worked crowd control at MK during Wishes. If I'm not mistaken, Shanghai doesn't have a "Main Street" so to speak, but rather a sprawled out "Avenue" version with several entrance and exit points to other lands and out of the park. It's probably time the MK did this as well. I know from walking through this corridor that plenty of space is available for that Walt's restaurant that was teased in the concept art for Disney Springs.

Thanks for the perspective. And I do get that the Utilidor entrance is vital. The reason I asked about a platform is because my company is building one of several skyscrapers in Manhattan that sit atop a giant platform over the Hudson rail yards. Manhattan, unlike Florida, is built on bedrock, which is a much stronger foundation. I understand that. However, if a platform strong enough to support several skyscrapers can be constructed over a working rail yard, I thought it might at least be possible to build something that could support a ride building over a sunken roadway. Obviously there are considerations that could make this impractical, but that's why I asked.

Your idea is probably feasible, but wouldn't make enough sense for management to dole out money for it. Love the idea though.

 

[marni1971]

I forgot another aspect of the volcano expansion of AL. It is a PERFECT backgr


Do you have a picture of that central mountain available?

http://www.wdwmagic.com/attractions...-new-fantasyland-concept-art.htm#&gid=1&pid=1

That's the same footprint as the final product.

 

[troy.]

In a park that's still horrendously overcrowded more and more they still haven't reached the balance of coping with demand vs driving demand.

Everything is being done to try to cope without adding more real estate.

Real estate from paths leading to new attractions is really the only answer. Utilize the blessing of size...

A city can build up, MK cannot. It needs some sprawl.

 

[FigmentFan3]

Real estate from paths leading to new attractions is really the only answer. Utilize the blessing of size...

View attachment 211533


View attachment 211535

A city can build up, MK cannot. It needs some sprawl.

That looks REALLY cool.

 

[MisterPenguin]

In a park that's still horrendously overcrowded more and more they still haven't reached the balance of coping with demand vs driving demand.

Everything is being done to try to cope without adding more real estate.

If were both talking about the same issue, that is, crowding, then...

If you are not expanding real estate, then the only solution is finding somewhere for all those people to be rather than jostling each other in the walkways. You could demolish current rides for rides/attractions that hold more people. But, unless you're changing a ride into a theater... I don't see that as much of a solution. So, if you're not expanding your park's acreage, how do you reduce crowding through the upgrading of attractions? My proposal of better queues does take up more real estate, which would tend to make things more crowded, but it packs people in more efficiently. A large, well-themed queue should hold more people than the ride itself.

If you are expanding real estate and adding more rides... and those rides are great rides, then you will draw in more people than the new area can accommodate and create more crowding... unless you build a large, well-themed queue... just like FoP can hold three hours worth of people in queue.