Possible Frontierland expansion

[MisterPenguin]

Here's my (partial) solution: more and better queues.

More and better queues makes lines tolerable. Keeps guests happy. Tells a story. Shows off theming. Gets people out of the sun/rain.

If the queues are really nice, people don't mind waiting. Look how few are complaining about the long wait for FoP.

It absorbs crowds. Now, I know the old saw that Corporate Disney wants guests out of line so they can buy stuff. People need to eat. They'll buy food in between rides. If they're happy with the ride because they weren't worn down by a lengthy and hot maze of switchbacks, they'll buy the merch (cf. shoulder banshees).

More and better queues isn't going to make huge crowds show up just to experience the queue, but they'll absorb the crowds that are there.

 

[Bocabear]

You considered the Princess-Pixie-Fairy-M+G overkill version better than the built version? Which is still not even remotely the expected answer by Disney to WWoHP at Universal?
BTW, because capacity is the problem, an AL-expansion would make more sense than just adding more attractions. A true expansion brings not only the ride, it brings shops and restaurants and walking areas. Besides big rides which work as people eater, that's what really increases capacity, areas where people walk, sit and talk, enjoy the kinetics and entertainment, all those design features and elements that made Disney parks so special.
Just imagine what the AL expansion would mean for the capacity of the MK, a new attraction on E-Ticket level, lets call it Fire Mountain or JttCotE, with very elaborate queueing areas, that alone soak up hundreds of waiting guests, the new reimaged Tiki-Room as the second attraction in a Polynesian village setting at the base of the Volcano, 3 shops with 2 Attraction related gift shops that sell merchandise, one for the E-Ticket, one for the Tiki Room and a third shop for aloha shirts, polynesian pop artifacts, tiki culture etc. Add a table service restaurant like the Ohana in the Poly and a CS-restaurant like Captain Cooks (Which serves TONGA TOAST for breakfast) only in the scale of Columbia Harbor House or Cosmic Rays, the new Aloha Isle and M+G areas for Moana and the new expansion is complete. The entire land offers brillant views of the volcano, the new weenie of AL and crowds are waiting to see the different eruption patterns, like at Mt. Prometheus in TDS. The square footage of the area alone can take up thousands of guests more with the attractions, their queueing areas and shops and the restaurants.

I love the thoughrts of this, but if The Enchanted Tiki Room is in a village at the base of the volcano, that would mean that the Jungle Cruise would be under the mountain...along with the Swiss Family Robinson treehouse... It would have to be really spectacular to say goodbye to both of those attractions.... Unless they completely revamped the jungle cruie as part of the new addition...Gave the sets a little more animation and motion, and maybe had some more of the ride indoors seamlessly...

 

[Tod&BigMamaOdie]

Here's my (partial) solution: more and better queues.

More and better queues makes lines tolerable. Keeps guests happy. Tells a story. Shows off theming. Gets people out of the sun/rain.

If the queues are really nice, people don't mind waiting. Look how few are complaining about the long wait for FoP.

It absorbs crowds. Now, I know the old saw that Corporate Disney wants guests out of line so they can buy stuff. People need to eat. They'll buy food in between rides. If they're happy with the ride because they weren't worn down by a lengthy and hot maze of switchbacks, they'll buy the merch (cf. shoulder banshees).

More and better queues isn't going to make huge crowds show up just to experience the queue, but they'll absorb the crowds that are there.

That might be a help, as you say for a partial solution. But personally, I have my limits on wait times. Want it to be truly Magical? Make wait times 30 minutes (40 max) or less (by adding crowd eaters & other ways). Then I would be even happier, in a better mood and more likely to spend a little of that time saved and money on some food/beverage and merchandise. As is now compared to what it could be (IMO), Magical my asp.

ETA - I know. It'll never happen.

 

[Spike-in-Berlin]

I love the thoughrts of this, but if The Enchanted Tiki Room is in a village at the base of the volcano, that would mean that the Jungle Cruise would be under the mountain...along with the Swiss Family Robinson treehouse... It would have to be really spectacular to say goodbye to both of those attractions.... Unless they completely revamped the jungle cruie as part of the new addition...Gave the sets a little more animation and motion, and maybe had some more of the ride indoors seamlessly...

Nothing has to go, the expansion pad for AL is southwest of the MK, behind PotC and the JC, it would be built entire on land that is at the moment outside the guest areas. The major problem is the connection with the existing land because there is only a very narrow path between the JC and PotC, but that cannot be an unsolvable problem because we know that WDI had already planned an Atlantis based Fire Mountain in this area and it was only shelved because of the Atlantis movie being a box office bomb. So the Polynesian village with the new Tiki Room would be in a completely new built expansion pad, the old Tiki Room could take up another new attraction, bringing the attraction roster of AL to 6.

 

[tirian]

Here's my (partial) solution: more and better queues.

More and better queues makes lines tolerable. Keeps guests happy. Tells a story. Shows off theming. Gets people out of the sun/rain.

If the queues are really nice, people don't mind waiting. Look how few are complaining about the long wait for FoP.

It absorbs crowds. Now, I know the old saw that Corporate Disney wants guests out of line so they can buy stuff. People need to eat. They'll buy food in between rides. If they're happy with the ride because they weren't worn down by a lengthy and hot maze of switchbacks, they'll buy the merch (cf. shoulder banshees).

More and better queues isn't going to make huge crowds show up just to experience the queue, but they'll absorb the crowds that are there.

Yes, but giving the MK and Epcot a few more high quality attractions will also help spread the crowds and make days enjoyable.

Guests don't like waiting in queues no matter how nice they are. Otherwise, FP+ wouldn't be so popular in advance.

I'm having a harder time convincing friends to come with me because they're burnt out on the insane pre-planning and crowd navigation Disney requires year-round. In the past, you simply avoided summer, spring break, and Christmas. Now Disney drives crowds all year, and combined with the FP+ and dining plan windows, it doesn't feel like much of a Vacation Kingdom unless you really know how to work the system.

 

[tirian]

Another +1

I don't like the Beast's castle perspective at all.

Because it doesn't exist!

 

[Rodan75]

Yes, but giving the MK and Epcot a few more high quality attractions will also help spread the crowds and make days enjoyable.

I'm having a harder time convincing friends to come with me because they're burnt out on the insane pre-planning and crowd navigation Disney requires year-round. In the past, you simply avoided summer, spring break, and Christmas. Now Disney drives crowds all year, and combined with the FP+ and dining plan windows, it doesn't feel like much of a Vacation Kingdom unless you really know how to work the system.

So much truth here. I don't have a problem navigating FP+ and don't think the pre-planning bit is a chore or a barrier, but I know the perception exists, until this last trip I didn't realize many of the restaurants still had standby seating.

But managing through the crowds at MK is miserable. The hub helps and truly makes getting around MK much less stressful, but there are still so many choke points just getting through Main Street that I wish they would open a '1st and 2nd' street with store entrances and theming on the exit only alleys. Plus there are a ton of other choke points that need addressing at the park, things I was hoping would be worked on after the hub opened.

I was happy they removed the night parade as that seemed to exacerbate the issues at all of the choke points.

 

[brb1006]

I wanted to like the ride because I loved the VHS tape, but even as a kid, I couldn't buy into the plastic scenery.

IMO FLE has two problems: (1) the forced perspective for Beast's castle is atrocious, and (2) Disney execs refused to accept how FLE merely addressed existing capacity problems and didn't make room for new crowds. WDI could only control the first issue. Otherwise, FLE and even the Tangled Toilets (R) are pretty darn nice.

The Beast's castle issue is going to get worse once the Tokyo Beauty and the Beast ride finally arrives in the coming years.

 

[Kman101]

So much truth here. I don't have a problem navigating FP+ and don't think the pre-planning bit is a chore or a barrier, but I know the perception exists, until this last trip I didn't realize many of the restaurants still had standby seating.

But managing through the crowds at MK is miserable. The hub helps and truly makes getting around MK much less stressful, but there are still so many choke points just getting through Main Street that I wish they would open a '1st and 2nd' street with store entrances and theming on the exit only alleys. Plus there are a ton of other choke points that need addressing at the park, things I was hoping would be worked on after the hub opened.

I was happy they removed the night parade as that seemed to exacerbate the issues at all of the choke points.

Very well said. I agree.

Though I think the park still needs a nighttime parade.

 

[Matt_Black]

Fire Mountain would be great, but SM needs to be gutted and rebuilt. Not re-rethemed, just rebuild the existing track with actual smooth steel.

"Smooth Steel" was the name I used for an amateur film I appeared in whilst in college. I'm not proud of it.

 

[Rhinocerous]

Here's what the back side of Mermaid and BoG looks like and the main Utilidor Entrance. This is north of MK looking south.

View attachment 211042

If you do anything to the north of these buildings and you're still outside, then you've got to hide all that as well as stabilize the swamp land and reroute canals and drainage ponds.

But, let's say you create an enclosed walkway to a building on the north side for a dark ride. You still have to deal with the road...

View attachment 211043

There's only one truck/car bridge over the railroad tracks to get to the utilidors, and then it runs along the back of the show buildings. You either have to build a new bridge (red arrow), or, your covered walkway to a proposed dark ride show building would have to be a giant ramp over the roadway. A magic escalator?

The easier solutions would be to get rid of Speedway and expand Fantasy Land into it. Or, build to the north of Space Mountain, although, you'll have to deal with a bridge or two over the rail road.

And if this is all for a BatB dark ride and you want to keep it next to the restaurant... well then some very hard and expensive choices need to be made. For me, it's simple, trash the horrible Mermaid ride.

Thanks for the perspective. And I do get that the Utilidor entrance is vital. The reason I asked about a platform is because my company is building one of several skyscrapers in Manhattan that sit atop a giant platform over the Hudson rail yards. Manhattan, unlike Florida, is built on bedrock, which is a much stronger foundation. I understand that. However, if a platform strong enough to support several skyscrapers can be constructed over a working rail yard, I thought it might at least be possible to build something that could support a ride building over a sunken roadway. Obviously there are considerations that could make this impractical, but that's why I asked.

 

[tirian]

So much truth here. I don't have a problem navigating FP+ and don't think the pre-planning bit is a chore or a barrier, but I know the perception exists, until this last trip I didn't realize many of the restaurants still had standby seating.

But managing through the crowds at MK is miserable. The hub helps and truly makes getting around MK much less stressful, but there are still so many choke points just getting through Main Street that I wish they would open a '1st and 2nd' street with store entrances and theming on the exit only alleys. Plus there are a ton of other choke points that need addressing at the park, things I was hoping would be worked on after the hub opened.

I was happy they removed the night parade as that seemed to exacerbate the issues at all of the choke points.

The MK needs a night parade, and the Main Street bypass helps. I've always found the fireworks create choke points as guests camp out for an hour or two waiting for them.

 

[jt04]

You considered the Princess-Pixie-Fairy-M+G overkill version better than the built version? Which is still not even remotely the expected answer by Disney to WWoHP at Universal?
BTW, because capacity is the problem, an AL-expansion would make more sense than just adding more attractions. A true expansion brings not only the ride, it brings shops and restaurants and walking areas. Besides big rides which work as people eater, that's what really increases capacity, areas where people walk, sit and talk, enjoy the kinetics and entertainment, all those design features and elements that made Disney parks so special.
Just imagine what the AL expansion would mean for the capacity of the MK, a new attraction on E-Ticket level, lets call it Fire Mountain or JttCotE, with very elaborate queueing areas, that alone soak up hundreds of waiting guests, the new reimaged Tiki-Room as the second attraction in a Polynesian village setting at the base of the Volcano, 3 shops with 2 Attraction related gift shops that sell merchandise, one for the E-Ticket, one for the Tiki Room and a third shop for aloha shirts, polynesian pop artifacts, tiki culture etc. Add a table service restaurant like the Ohana in the Poly and a CS-restaurant like Captain Cooks (Which serves TONGA TOAST for breakfast) only in the scale of Columbia Harbor House or Cosmic Rays, the new Aloha Isle and M+G areas for Moana and the new expansion is complete. The entire land offers brillant views of the volcano, the new weenie of AL and crowds are waiting to see the different eruption patterns, like at Mt. Prometheus in TDS. The square footage of the area alone can take up thousands of guests more with the attractions, their queueing areas and shops and the restaurants.

We likely will never know what the central mountain of the original version was going to be but it had a huge footprint. Likely it would have included many of the elements you mention. Plus pixie hollow was an original part of the plan. Possibly Alice also.

I agree with you about expanding all the lands in the MK. In due course.

 

[jt04]

Oh, and back on topic: I wouldn't expect a FrL expansion any time soon.

Good. Rather they get it right than rush it.

WRE + Discovery Bay + S.E.A. = Franchise

Or something along those lines. IMO.

 

[Kman101]

The MK needs a night parade, and the Main Street bypass helps. I've always found the fireworks create choke points as guests camp out for an hour or two waiting for them.

The bypass and larger hub help a lot. I don't understand blaming the parade.

 

[Rodan75]

The bypass and larger hub help a lot. I don't understand blaming the parade.

Because it makes navigating the park more difficult that usual.

I'm not anti-parade. I'm anti-parade at MK, where it is already too clogged to walk.

But I understand parade love. Make the alleys open full time in both directions and I'm back on board with parades at MK. LoL.

 

[Rodan75]

The MK needs a night parade, and the Main Street bypass helps. I've always found the fireworks create choke points as guests camp out for an hour or two waiting for them.

I haven't had as many problems with the fireworks crowds, but mostly because the alleys are open and the improvements to the hub.

 

[Kman101]

I guess because I typically avoided the park at night because I don't like the crowds that go with it, so I guess it doesn't register that it is a problem, but they shouldn't not have one because of crowd congestion. It's a disgusting mess of people after the fireworks.

 

[Kman101]

I haven't had as many problems with the fireworks crowds, but mostly because the alleys are open and the improvements to the hub.

People are now camping out in the hub at least a couple of hours before HEA. Not sure if it's all the time but a month ago when it first opened I couldn't even walk around them around 7:30. And not one person would budge an inch to give anyone room to walk. They looked at you as if you were in their way. Awful. I wish they'd stop allowing people to camp out

Anyway, Frontierland is awful with congestion for any parade, day or night

 

[Spike-in-Berlin]

I forgot another aspect of the volcano expansion of AL. It is a PERFECT backgr

We likely will never know what the central mountain of the original version was going to be but it had a huge footprint. Likely it would have included many of the elements you mention. Plus pixie hollow was an original part of the plan. Possibly Alice also.

I agree with you about expanding all the lands in the MK. In due course.

Do you have a picture of that central mountain available?