OS: Confederate Flag Removed from Epcot

[G00fyDad]

Trolling

Of course you would say that. Sad.

 

[PhotoDave219]

You are clearly too obtuse to even understand my point or the history of the Confederate Flag.
Just because you try to play the "ignorance" card...let me let you in on a little fact......it doesn't make you seem any smarter.
You clearly do not understand history. You get your marching orders from the revisionist history perpetrated by those who find it easier to do so than to try to resolve the issue through actual education.

And you will never get it....because you are their target audience.

Actually we do. We get your history. We're not arguing your history of the Confederate Flag.

What we take umbrage with is how the Klan used it, Timothy McVay used it, Terry Nichols used it, Dylan Roof used it and how many many many other hate groups in this country use it. Where we have a problem is how it got turned into a symbol of white supremacy, oppression and hatred.

How you're not angry at the misuse of your symbol, that I don't understand. That's where the problem is. And if you don't see that, then perhaps you're part of that problem.

 

[TyrantBoss]

Actually, you don't know history and you are wrong in your assertions. Here's just one example of the Mississippi secession document. The other states have similar documents:

Confederate States of America - Mississippi Secession
A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union.

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

That's Mississippi. There are MANY other states in the south and the original cause for succession was purely economic.

 

[Tigger1988]

... and accurate.

It is a myth. You're talking about a group (maybe) a couple thousand people strong in a country of 300 million. And the government has them so closely monitored that they can't wipe their nose without getting arrested (as they should be) and seeing the inside of a prison. I can't speak to Bill O'Reilly as I don't watch his program.

Yeah, monitored so closely that they didn't find the ENTIRE WEBSITE Roof had devoted to it. And more sites exist. But keep your head in the sand about it.

 

[bethymouse]

its hard to argue being "over sensitive" to a flag that STILL to this day is a rallying symbol for racists nationwide. i'm not saying i agree with it being taken down in, say, an iphone app *ahem* but this is disney world for gods sake, some people don't want to see that when they're on vacation

My husband wears a headband with the confederate flag. He's not a racist... he's just an old hillbilly!

 

[PhotoDave219]

You still are avoiding the initial cause. The Union didn't make the war about slavery until Lincoln introduced the Emancipation Proclamation. Succession was not originally about slavery. It was about economics....but the politicians inserted slavery to stir up more support for their cause.
And the Confederate Flag was Not even the first flag of Succession.

Maybe this will make it easy enough for you to understand.

I've watched that, very informative. He explains complex problems well.

Now, as to your allegation of cause? The Vice President of the Confederacy in 1861 said it was about slavery. We've covered this and if you won't accept the south's own words, thats not my problem.

What I do have a problem with - and clearly you really haven't addressed this point - is how others misused your symbol, allowed it to be co-op'd and become a symbol of white supremacy.

 

[Phil12]

That's Mississippi. There are MANY other states in the south and the original cause for succession was purely economic.

Wrong again. But I doubt even if you read the history that you would change your mind because your mind is made up and you have no facts to back up your assertions.

 

[TyrantBoss]

Actually we do. We get your history. We're not arguing your history of the Confederate Flag.

What we take umbrage with is how the Klan used it, Timothy McVay used it, Terry Nichols used it, Dylan Roof used it and how many many many other hate groups in this country use it. Where we have a problem is how it got turned into a symbol of white supremacy, oppression and hatred.

How you're not angry at the misuse of your symbol, that I don't understand. That's where the problem is. And if you don't see that, then perhaps you're part of that problem.

You simply glossed over my point. You only read what you wanted to read...clearly.
I said very clearly that instead of censoring the history of this country our leaders need to EDUCATE about the truth.
What frightens me the most is the simple cavalier approach people take in the censoring and rewriting of our history and how many of you simply support it without question.

You also ignored my other point that if we start to censor everything that people find offensive then we may end up censoring everything.
George Washington owned slaves...erase him from history.
Thomas Jefferson owned slaves...erase him from history.
Andrew Jackson caused the "Trail of Tears" that killed so many Native Americans.....erase him from history.
They are all symbols of past evils in this country. So based on your argument...they must all be erased from history.

And where will it end?

 

[PhotoDave219]

My husband wears a headband with the confederate flag. He's not a racist... he's just an old hillbilly!

I truly believe that most people who fly that flag today arent racist.

The only problem is that it's been co-op'd by the white supremacy movement worldwide.

Thats wherein the problem lies.

 

[G00fyDad]

 

[TyrantBoss]

Wrong again. But I doubt even if you read the history that you would change your mind because your mind is made up and you have no facts to back up your assertions.

I do...but trying to teach you .....you are so filled with hate and a passion so revise history that you won't even listen.
It's very sad that you are so willing to censor the past simply because you don't like it.
Just disgraceful.

 

[spacemt354]

This whole issue comes down to a fundamental understanding of American history (or lack thereof) in our society - and I directly blame the educational system for that.

History and other social studies are being mitigated in schools throughout the nation, and it shows

There's a reason why every year news outlets can hold "gags" asking people American history questions to which they respond with nonsensical guesses. I put gags in quotes because that just scares me and it's part of the reason why arguments like this happen.

If you try to hide and "spin" history, then you're going to inevitably repeat it. There is no reason why we should be covering up history. And maybe if we taught more history in schools, we would be able to have a more informed discussion about this type of stuff.

But instead it devolves into hyperbole and people jumping on the popular trends just to fit in. There's no reason why a historical flag shouldn't be kept in a historical context as such, which is not just a symbol of racism or supremacy. But those are the only two components that are discussed because they are the most controversial topics. And as others have mentioned, there are many variations of the Confederate flag, but since American schools feel this stuff Isn't relevant to teach, you wind up with ignorant debates and an overly sensitive society.

Anyone who idolizes supremacy of any race I don't agree with, but to represent the flag as a side of American history we can learn from, in museums and other historical contexts, I don't see what's offensive about that?

 

[PhotoDave219]

You simply glossed over my point. You only read what you wanted to read...clearly.
I said very clearly that instead of censoring the history of this country our leaders need to EDUCATE about the truth.
What frightens me the most is the simple cavalier approach people take in the censoring and rewriting of our history and how many of you simply support it without question.

You also ignored my other point that if we start to censor everything that people find offensive then we may end up censoring everything.
George Washington owned slaves...erase him from history.
Thomas Jefferson owned slaves...erase him from history.
Andrew Jackson caused the "Trail of Tears" that killed so many Native Americans.....erase him from history.
They are all symbols of past evils in this country. So based on your argument...they must all be erased from history.

And where will it end?

No, we get your point. People have made the same point over and over all day. Trust me, we get it, and there have been people who have put forth that point in a much more mature and ellegant fashion.

I've never advocated that anything be erased from history. Should have read back earlier today, I'm all for the flag going in a museum and teaching people what its about and what it stood for.

Again, your hyperbole doesn't serve you well in this case.

You seem to think this is about censorship. The rest of the world seems to think this is about a symbol that got co-op'd by the White Supremacy movement.

 

[AdventureHasAName]

How you're not angry at the misuse of your symbol, that I don't understand. That's where the problem is. And if you don't see that, then perhaps you're part of that problem.

Strawman argument.

Nobody said they weren't angry at misuse of the Confederate flag. What they have said (and can be implied from the comments of others) is that there's literally nothing more they can do about it because there are so few people misusing the symbol and the police and federal intelligence agencies are so far up their behinds that they are, for the most part, completely incapable of causing mass harm. Any one lone-wolf crazy can cause a lot of damage by themselves, but as a country, where citizens (and even non-citizens) have rights, there is essentially very little that can be done to stop a lone-wolf. The country is not about to surround itself in bubble wrap and packing peanuts.

 

[PhotoDave219]

I do...but trying to teach you .....you are so filled with hate and a passion so revise history that you won't even listen.
It's very sad that you are so willing to censor the past simply because you don't like it.
Just disgraceful.

Quoting The Vice President of the Confederacy and Secession Conventions isn't a revision in history, rather its actual history. Its what was really said in that timeframe.

Thats actually the opposite of censorship.

 

[TyrantBoss]

No, we get your point. People have made the same point over and over all day. Trust me, we get it, and there have been people who have put forth that point in a much more mature and ellegant fashion.

I've never advocated that anything be erased from history. Should have read back earlier today, I'm all for the flag going in a museum and teaching people what its about and what it stood for.

Again, your hyperbole doesn't serve you well in this case.

You seem to think this is about censorship. The rest of the world seems to think this is about a symbol that got co-op'd by the White Supremacy movement.

And I say AGAIN.....if you are for a flag in a museum....and Disney is taking it out of their museum.....then why do you support them doing so?
Sounds like hypocrisy to me.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Strawman argument.

Nobody said they weren't angry at misuse of the Confederate flag. What they have said (and can be implied from the comments of others) is that there's literally nothing more they can do about it because there are so few people misusing the symbol and the police and federal intelligence agencies are so far up their behinds that they are, for the most part, completely incapable of causing mass harm. Any one lone-wolf crazy can cause a lot of damage by themselves, but as a country, where citizens (and even non-citizens) have rights, there is essentially very little that can be done to stop a lone-wolf. The country is not about to surround itself in bubble wrap and packing peanuts.

Uh, this isnt a case of one lone wolf. Its an entire movement.

So if you're angry about what the flag has become through the actions of racists, bigots, terrorists and fascists, be angry at the people who actually caused the problem in the first place rather than those who simply suggest it should be displayed in a museum and discussed in historical context.

 

[TyrantBoss]

Quoting The Vice President of the Confederacy and Secession Conventions isn't a revision in history, rather its actual history. Its what was really said in that timeframe.

Thats actually the opposite of censorship.

Yet you ignore the other INITIAL causes....and that is revisionist and censorship.

I'm done with you now. You really do waste my time because you don't read what I wrote and don't care to.
Enjoy your support of censorship and revision of history. That is ignorant and disgraceful.

 

[spacemt354]

And I say AGAIN.....if you are for a flag in a museum....and Disney is taking it out of their museum.....then why do you support them doing so?
Sounds like hypocrisy to me.

I think because some people don't view Epcot as a museum, but as a theme park.

And the American Pavilion is a showcase of the "good" things about America.

There are no Nazi flags in the Germany pavilion even though it can be taught in a historical context. (Only good pretzels and beer )

 

[bethymouse]

@SunsetLament I had that Dynamite magazine!!!