OS: Confederate Flag Removed from Epcot

[PhotoDave219]

Correct me if im wrong, didn't EPCOT once have an original copy of the bill of rights in the American Experience? It was around the '05 era i just cant remember. It be nice if Disney could get a loan again.

You'd have to ask @wdwmagic ... I don't remember that either way.

 

[englanddg]

Ding ding ding! We have a winner for dumbest post of the day!

You missed the sarcasm, eh?

 

[ULPO46]

You'd have to ask @wdwmagic ... I don't remember that either way.

Hope he has some info. Not that we want it to be a museum but its nice to show a little history to the foreign toursit who dont have a trip to the Smithsonian on their minds. God i love that instution. As for this whole debate i honestly dont care i have blood that fought on both sides. It happened 150 years ago and 50 years after the civil rights moevement something is getting done. Of course we humans complain about anything and everything so soceity must accept and conform to the norms around us in order to be a happy soceity. As for the video if they remove the confederate flag but not Tiger and the man who was stripped of all those Tour de France titles, i will laugh. But its up to them. I just cant wait until this finalizes and becomes a thing of the past. But at least it changed the gay marriage and the cinderella castle rumor stuff.

 

[englanddg]

Disney waited until Bill Cosby HIMSELF admitted to wrong doing. Get out of here with that whining.

Also, close the thread already. People are repeating the same hyperbolic dreck we read 20 pages ago.

I agree with the first part, not so much the latter...

 

[englanddg]

The Civil War was indeed about Slavery.

Confederate Vice-President Alexander Stephens, in what was referred to as the Cornerstone Speech (March 21st, 1861) said : The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution.

He went on to say in the very same speech that: Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.

The State of Texas, at it's own secession convention in February 1861 said: We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

Clearly I know my history.

Or you know what you can google.

Which means you know facts, but not context. And, without context, you do not understand history.

Step down sir.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Or you know what you can google.

Which means you know facts, but not context. And, without context, you do not understand history.

Step down sir.

I understand fully. I understand the context.

Alas, I really dont want to have this debate with you.

 

[englanddg]

You can cut and paste anything...and clearly you don't know your history. Succession was not initially about slavery.
But go ahead and find more cut-and-paste to back up your interest in censoring American history.

The more you try to censor...the more you support rewriting history...the more you reveal who you really are.

No offense, I am catching up on the thread...but...

It's secession.

Not succession.

Succession is why we revolted in 1776.

Secession is what the south did.

 

[englanddg]

I understand fully. I understand the context.

Alas, I really dont want to have this debate with you.

No, you don't. <wink>

 

[PhotoDave219]

No, you don't. <wink>

If you're gonna wink at me, you better buy me dinner.....

 

[englanddg]

People have been trying to get the flag removed (not from WDW) for decades. Just because you didn't hear about it doesn't mean it wasn't a concern for people.

I want to comment on this.

Oh, wait, I just did.

Anyhow, it is completely correct. The south as a whole has been trying to remove these for a long time, as in decades. The state flag battle was won a while ago (for my state, the early 2000's), but SC is a backwards poopdeck of a culture and community (sorry to any S. Carolinians, but you are the sumphole culture of the nation, and I know, I lived there for years, in Greenville, Charleston, Florence, and Colombia (which is probably the worst of them all). DWB is a REAL thing in SC. Tilted courts and silly people...all VERY real.

But, before this turns into a SC rant and how much they need to check their water for LSD or Meth leaks, I'll say, even there, there was a strong movement to have it pulled.

The issue ALWAYS (because I saw this when I lived there) became when the rest of the country became involved.

It's the sort of thing, I can call my friend ugly, but YOU can't call my friend ugly.

They'd rally the wagons, and stop it.

Any support gained, would be lost the minute some "out of stater" who wanted his 15 seconds would stage a protest (whose names started with J or A, normally)...

And yes, no one was asking for this to be removed from a historical hall of flags.

 

[englanddg]

If you're gonna wink at me, you better buy me dinner.....

Only for the FUPA. It's the most beautiful thing in the world!

 

[PhotoDave219]

I want to comment on this.

Oh, wait, I just did.

Anyhow, it is completely correct. The south as a whole has been trying to remove these for a long time, as in decades. The state flag battle was won a while ago (for my state, the early 2000's), but SC is a backwards poopdeck of a culture and community (sorry to any S. Carolinians, but you are the sumphole culture of the nation, and I know, I lived there for years, in Greenville, Charleston, Florence, and Colombia (which is probably the worst of them all). DWB is a REAL thing in SC. Tilted courts and silly people...all VERY real.

But, before this turns into a SC rant and how much they need to check their water for LSD or Meth leaks, I'll say, even there, there was a strong movement to have it pulled.

The issue ALWAYS (because I saw this when I lived there) became when the rest of the country became involved.

It's the sort of thing, I can call my friend ugly, but YOU can't call my friend ugly.

They'd rally the wagons, and stop it.

Any support gained, would be lost the minute some "out of stater" who wanted his 15 seconds would stage a protest (whose names started with J or A, normally)...

And yes, no one was asking for this to be removed from a historical hall of flags.

DWB is a very real thing in NJ as well. I was working for a litigation support company in college that handled the imaging of the discovery. This was early 2000s. Some rather nasty things in those documents....

 

[StageFrenzy]

I agree with the first part, not so much the latter...

But I think we found the most reasonable position on the matter on the third post.

 

[englanddg]

Actually, you don't know history and you are wrong in your assertions. Here's just one example of the Mississippi secession document. The other states have similar documents:

Confederate States of America - Mississippi Secession
A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union.

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

Ah, but lets dissect that. And give it CONTEXT! (note, I say context, and always have, not ethics nor morality)

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery

As it should be, it's the basis of the economy at large. Cheap labor (ahem...which we convieniently still do as a country, we just send it to third world countries...sovereign entities of their own with international legal rights...what do you bright tards who got your Harvard and Yale Business degrees and made your millions think will happen once we send them enough of our IP (and I don't mean Disney IP) that they don't "need" Apple anymore outside of a brand...you dumb dumb fools...gave away the house for a shiny bean.)

the greatest material interest of the world.

Yes, labor is the greatest expense and liability of any business currently, and certainly more so back then.

Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun.

While inaccurate, it isn't exactly racist. My daughter has a rather high melanin count, and frankly, after a few days at Disney, she doesn't need sun tan lotion anymore. She's tanned up and ready to go. I'm in the same boat, though I don't get as dark, but I keep my tan for months. It is scientific and factual that those with greater melanin have less instances of skin cancer and are less likely to suffer from sunburn.

And, when planning a workforce, at that time, it makes sense and is a valid argument (though an inaccurate one).

These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization.

This is completely accurate, considering the economic landscape of the time. Again, not racist. Just accurate.

That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation.

Ah, the conceding the moral point. As that is what it was. The issue was largely never about "what is best for the black man", the issue was "we as white people feel guilty about something we do not understand, but due to religious reasons, we think is wrong". I am VASTLY paraphrasing here, but most of the abolitionist movement came from Protestant doctrines (not Anglican or Catholic).

Again, read with context.

There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

Everything stated, however abhorrent (and it is), is strictly economically based. Slavery was PART of the economics. Earlier "cheese" was made as an example, but a good modern example (and a crappy one ethically and morally) would be that there was a ban on tractors.

And, before I get flame after flame, READ what I wrote.

So, that said. Show me where it's "racist" please? Assuming you can apply context, and not flare up with your latest google find.

 

[englanddg]

Right. You know history, but anyone who disagrees with your position does not. Gotcha, pal. LMAO at your ignorance AND arrogance. The confederate flag is associated with slavery and bigotry. That is a fact. And it is now being removed from EVERYWHERE. Deal with it, son.

Let me explain something to you "son".

But first I'll explain something you missed "chief".

True = It cannot be disproved. Obviously (as this thread has gone on for a bit) your statement can be (especially as I doubt you realize a Confederate Flag still flies in the hall of flags)

False = It can be disproved. With facts.

So, what is a fact?

Well, I'll dumb it down for you.



(and before you rage response, think about the joke I just made)

 

[invader]

Why did I just read all 27 pages? Talk about going in circles. This whole thread shows the lack of basic knowledge some people have. They want to argue about something they probably know nothing about and spew out opinions which were fed to them rather than critically thinking for themselves. Many have no idea on the formulation of context and lack the proper information and education on basics of the civil war. Some even claiming the civil war was fought over "economics"! Give me a break. It's argument for the sake of argument. Prime example of exactly why such adult topics never bode well on these forums.

 

[englanddg]

Yeah, monitored so closely that they didn't find the ENTIRE WEBSITE Roof had devoted to it. And more sites exist. But keep your head in the sand about it.

Maybe the solution is....?

Oh yeah, ban the flag. That will stop mentally ill individuals.

Got it.

It will work as well as #Kony2012 and the "Free Our Girls" crap on the net...

 

[englanddg]

I've watched that, very informative. He explains complex problems well.

Now, as to your allegation of cause? The Vice President of the Confederacy in 1861 said it was about slavery. We've covered this and if you won't accept the south's own words, thats not my problem.

What I do have a problem with - and clearly you really haven't addressed this point - is how others misused your symbol, allowed it to be co-op'd and become a symbol of white supremacy.

Do I need to post another Christianity example before you realize the "self policing" argument goes nowhere?

 

[PhotoDave219]

Do I need to post another Christianity example before you realize the "self policing" argument goes nowhere?

Of course not. But no one expects The Spanish Inquisition.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Do I need to post another Christianity example before you realize the "self policing" argument goes nowhere?

Of course the self-policing policies never work, look at Wall Street. Alas another debate for another time....