Orlando High Speed Rail IS DEFINITE

[jt04]

The world would be so much better without personal auto's, or at least our total dependence on them.

Somehow society has equated owning a car with some sort of constitutional freedom, when in reality it is one of the greatest personal burdens ever placed on a person.

I bow to the marketing genii that created this myth and embedded it in the American culture.

Let me guess....you had your liscense suspended?

Anyway, not going down this road :lol:. Because if you actually believe this you have crossed the threshold and only you can find the way back to realityland.

Plus it is veering dangerously close to a political discussion. Nice try. :lol:

 

[fillerup]

The benefit is that this will relieve traffic on I-4 and reduce wear and tear and possibly eliminate the need for further widenings after those already scheduled. I just read it will cost 3 BILLION DOLLARS to widen I-4 from Tampa to just Lakeland if it becomes necessary again. That is more than the cost of HSR from Tampa all the way to Orlando! HSR is a no brainer, at least in this instance.

You're ignoring the Congressional Research Service estimates (previously posted here) that HSR will reduce I-4 traffic by roughly 2%.

You're also ignoring the CRS's study that rail projects are typically underestimated by an average of 45%. Who's going to pay that when it inevitably happens?

jt - You're clearly passionate about HSR, and I have no personal criticism of you for that - it's commendable in fact. But you continually, willfully in fact, ignore the independent research that's available, and instead cite "fact sheets" from state bureaucrats who have a vested interest in seeing this project go forward. Their little political kingdoms depend on it.

 

[Mick G.]

See if this link works. Looks like most of the line goes down the center of I-4, and this PDF shows a couple of potential WDW station locations. Both are on the edge of I-4, and near the I-4/Hwy 192 junction.

http://flhsr.squarespace.com/tpa-orl-concept-plans/11-SR 535 to I-4_SR 528 Interchange.pdf

I'm still pretty sure that "high-speed" rail will still take longer to get you from the airport to your hotel than the magic bus does now. But I would also rather see the money spent on trains and track than on wider and more insane highways.\

Mick

 

[stlbobby]

Let me guess....you had your liscense suspended?

Anyway, not going down this road :lol:. Because if you actually believe this you have crossed the threshold and only you can find the way back to realityland.

Plus it is veering dangerously close to a political discussion. Nice try. :lol:

I've never had my license suspended. I drive to work everyday and I hate it everyday.

Everyone would be better off if we we ended our dependence on commuting by auto. It would be better for the environment, national security, the economy, and personal sanity.

What amazes me is the continued resistance to mass transit when the greatest cities in America and the world have the best mass transit systems.

And this discussion was political from the first post.

 

[SeaCastle]

Disney has not made any announcements but this is my guess as to how it will work.

Transportation will still be free with your resort stay. So instead of taking a bus you will take the train. Your baggage will still be checked through to your room.

You will then catch a bus at the station on Disney property but the difference is you will have the option of going directly to any resort (dinner reservations etc) or theme park (you would already have your length of stay passes or they could be picked up at any 'guest services' with proper ID) or you could be taken directly to your home resort (Magical Express does not offer this service) or you may be going directly to DTD.

Since Disney will know exactly when each train is arriving, they will be able to have transportation waiting at the station. They will also know the numbers of guests arriving with reasonable accuracy so a seat will be assured.

Finally, the trains will be reliable and punctual. ME can't make that promise as it depends on I-4 traffic conditions.

The benefit is that this will relieve traffic on I-4 and reduce wear and tear and possibly eliminate the need for further widenings after those already scheduled. I just read it will cost 3 BILLION DOLLARS to widen I-4 from Tampa to just Lakeland if it becomes necessary again. That is more than the cost of HSR from Tampa all the way to Orlando! HSR is a no brainer, at least in this instance.

I assume this is a "best case scenario", as this seems to be more wishful thinking than anything else, considering Disney has been relatively mum on the subject.

The plan you said above doesn't take into account the fact that you may have to wait up to an hour for your train to arrive in station to take you to WDW. Even though it may be free, it would also be a hassle. Furthermore, you would still have to get the luggage yourself. Magical Express takes care of it for you.

What if the amount of people coming off a plane at each given hour overwhelms the train service? Don't forget, there are supposedly locals and businessmen using the train, too- not just tourists. Imagine if on ten flights per a given hour (a very low estimate), 20 of the passengers (another low estimate) on each flight are taking the train. You're then looking at 200 people only going to Disney that have to get on the train at the same time.

For the record, Magical Express does bring you directly to your hotel. It may stop at another hotel on the way, but it is direct in the fact that you can go from MCO to your resort without leaving your seat and in little or not stress. I'm not sure if you've used Magical Express before or have had a difficult experience with it, but we've always found it to be one of the most convenient experiences on property. The HSR wouldn't afford this convenience, as it would have you get your luggage, wait for a train, get on the train, get off the train, THEN find a bus to your final destination, whereas the DME gets you off the jetway, and onto a bus that gets you to where you need to be, cutting out the middleman that would exist using HSR.

While I do believe in less wear and tear on roadways, I think the culprits here are individual automobiles with one or two passengers, not mass-transit vehicles or carpoolers, which reduce wear and tear. In a perfect world, the roadways would only be used by busses and carpoolers, with individuals using the HSR or other forms of mass transit. Trying to get busses off the road and putting tourists on the HSR won't solve the problem...they're actually making the situation better by not traveling in hundreds of extra taxi cabs, rental cars, etc.

I'm neither for nor against HSR. To be honest, I don't know that much about it to have an opinion on it. I'm simply speaking from the standpoint of a typical Disney resort guest who doesn't see how the HSR will be extremely beneficial to my vacation.

 

[mkt]

The world would be so much better without personal auto's, or at least our total dependence on them.

Somehow society has equated owning a car with some sort of constitutional freedom, when in reality it is one of the greatest personal burdens ever placed on a person.

I bow to the marketing genii that created this myth and embedded it in the American culture.

I have to agree wholeheartedly with you. And I'm a car fanatic. I love cars, everything about them... the styling, the engineering, and the fun they can provide on the right road and on the track. But commuting on the highway is my own personal slice of hell.

 

[GenerationX]

The world would be so much better without personal auto's, or at least our total dependence on them.

Somehow society has equated owning a car with some sort of constitutional freedom, when in reality it is one of the greatest personal burdens ever placed on a person.

I bow to the marketing genii that created this myth and embedded it in the American culture.

I completely disagree. Cars are not embedded in our culture because of some myth or marketing effort. Cars do provide a level of freedom and convenience not found in any other form of transportation. It's not even close.

I'm for rail when it is effective. For example, when I worked in downtown Chicago, I took the train into work everyday. It was fast, efficient, punctual, and stress-free. And the rail lines ran at a profit.

I've investigated rail for vacations. Even with significant subsidization, it has never been time or cost efficient to go that route. Flying or driving is always better.

I'm not a car guy, and I dislike driving - particularly my suburb-to-suburb commute every morning. But I don't believe adding more rail is the answer, simply because the extent of rail that would need to be added to put a dent in the number of cars on the road is more cost prohibitive than anyone can imagine. Rail is effective for major metropolitan area work commuters and the occasional city-to-city high ridership line passing through very congested areas. Expanding it for other purposes is counter-productive.

 

[RETLAW]

I assume this is a "best case scenario", as this seems to be more wishful thinking than anything else, considering Disney has been relatively mum on the subject.

The plan you said above doesn't take into account the fact that you may have to wait up to an hour for your train to arrive in station to take you to WDW. Even though it may be free, it would also be a hassle. Furthermore, you would still have to get the luggage yourself. Magical Express takes care of it for you.

What if the amount of people coming off a plane at each given hour overwhelms the train service? Don't forget, there are supposedly locals and businessmen using the train, too- not just tourists. Imagine if on ten flights per a given hour (a very low estimate), 20 of the passengers (another low estimate) on each flight are taking the train. You're then looking at 200 people only going to Disney that have to get on the train at the same time.

For the record, Magical Express does bring you directly to your hotel. It may stop at another hotel on the way, but it is direct in the fact that you can go from MCO to your resort without leaving your seat and in little or not stress. I'm not sure if you've used Magical Express before or have had a difficult experience with it, but we've always found it to be one of the most convenient experiences on property. The HSR wouldn't afford this convenience, as it would have you get your luggage, wait for a train, get on the train, get off the train, THEN find a bus to your final destination, whereas the DME gets you off the jetway, and onto a bus that gets you to where you need to be, cutting out the middleman that would exist using HSR.

While I do believe in less wear and tear on roadways, I think the culprits here are individual automobiles with one or two passengers, not mass-transit vehicles or carpoolers, which reduce wear and tear. In a perfect world, the roadways would only be used by busses and carpoolers, with individuals using the HSR or other forms of mass transit. Trying to get busses off the road and putting tourists on the HSR won't solve the problem...they're actually making the situation better by not traveling in hundreds of extra taxi cabs, rental cars, etc.

I'm neither for nor against HSR. To be honest, I don't know that much about it to have an opinion on it. I'm simply speaking from the standpoint of a typical Disney resort guest who doesn't see how the HSR will be extremely beneficial to my vacation.

I believe that the original qoute that you are talking about was trying to stay that not only will you have the option of going straight to your resort, but also have the option of getting off the train, and going straight to a park, or DTD. The luggage piece of the magical express will still be going directly to your room within 3 -5 hrs of landing. The only trouble might be if you have carry ons; but then again, there are lockers at the parks.
I live in orlando, and love the idea of HSR. Not for the WDW piece, but to be able to go to Tampa without having to drive on I4; maybe even parking at WDW, and taking the train to the airport for a weekend getaway. The HSR works great in other parts of the world, hopefully, we can make it work just as well.

 

[jt04]

You're ignoring the Congressional Research Service estimates (previously posted here) that HSR will reduce I-4 traffic by roughly 2%.

You're also ignoring the CRS's study that rail projects are typically underestimated by an average of 45%. Who's going to pay that when it inevitably happens?

jt - You're clearly passionate about HSR, and I have no personal criticism of you for that - it's commendable in fact. But you continually, willfully in fact, ignore the independent research that's available, and instead cite "fact sheets" from state bureaucrats who have a vested interest in seeing this project go forward. Their little political kingdoms depend on it.

Possibly, but as I have mentioned often this will provide a sort of proving ground for its effectiveness. Before we spend too much money on half built systems that end up bankrupting us. The money is allocated for HSR. It will be spent on HSR. There is no stopping it. So I think this is the best use of those funds.

I've never had my license suspended. I drive to work everyday and I hate it everyday.

Everyone would be better off if we we ended our dependence on commuting by auto. It would be better for the environment, national security, the economy, and personal sanity.

What amazes me is the continued resistance to mass transit when the greatest cities in America and the world have the best mass transit systems.

And this discussion was political from the first post.

Not at all. And the biggest advocates of mass transit never use mass transit.:veryconfu

I assume this is a "best case scenario", as this seems to be more wishful thinking than anything else, considering Disney has been relatively mum on the subject. (And yet you then explain below how you think it will function.) :veryconfu

The plan you said above doesn't take into account the fact that you may have to wait up to an hour for your train to arrive in station to take you to WDW. (I don't think you can make this assumption) Even though it may be free, it would also be a hassle.(I don't see the difference between boarding a bus and a train) Furthermore, you would still have to get the luggage yourself. (I'm quite certain this is incorrect) Magical Express takes care of it for you. (And there is no reason your luggage can still be checked through on the train or by cargo van)

What if the amount of people coming off a plane at each given hour overwhelms the train service? (The trains will have more capacity than busses)Don't forget, there are supposedly locals and businessmen using the train, too- not just tourists. Imagine if on ten flights per a given hour (a very low estimate), 20 of the passengers (another low estimate) on each flight are taking the train. You're then looking at 200 people only going to Disney that have to get on the train at the same time. (Which is why I theorize as many trains as are needed will be used. And if the numbers get too large, parallel tracks will be built)

For the record, Magical Express does bring you directly to your hotel. It may stop at another hotel on the way, but it is direct in the fact that you can go from MCO to your resort without leaving your seat and in little or not stress. I'm not sure if you've used Magical Express before or have had a difficult experience with it, but we've always found it to be one of the most convenient experiences on property. The HSR wouldn't afford this convenience, as it would have you get your luggage, wait for a train, get on the train, get off the train, THEN find a bus to your final destination, whereas the DME gets you off the jetway, and onto a bus that gets you to where you need to be, cutting out the middleman that would exist using HSR. (This all sounds fine until you get stuck on I-4. And my ideas add flexibility the ME can never offer as I explained)

While I do believe in less wear and tear on roadways, I think the culprits here are individual automobiles with one or two passengers, not mass-transit vehicles or carpoolers, which reduce wear and tear. In a perfect world, the roadways would only be used by busses and carpoolers, with individuals using the HSR or other forms of mass transit. Trying to get busses off the road and putting tourists on the HSR won't solve the problem...they're actually making the situation better by not traveling in hundreds of extra taxi cabs, rental cars, etc.

I'm neither for nor against HSR. To be honest, I don't know that much about it to have an opinion on it. I'm simply speaking from the standpoint of a typical Disney resort guest who doesn't see how the HSR will be extremely beneficial to my vacation.

The system I described would likely only be an interim step until hopefully PRT's are added someday. (See "Heathrow PRT")

My text in red.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I live in orlando, and love the idea of HSR. Not for the WDW piece, but to be able to go to Tampa without having to drive on I4; maybe even parking at WDW, and taking the train to the airport for a weekend getaway. The HSR works great in other parts of the world, hopefully, we can make it work just as well.

How much time and money are you willing to invest in a high speed rail trip to Tampa?

 

[RETLAW]

How much time and money are you willing to invest in a high speed rail trip to Tampa?

They have said that it would be aprox $45 round trip from WDW to Tampa, and $65 from MCO to Tampa. I live REALLY close to wdw, and it still costs me a that in fuel in get to Tampa, plus it will be faster than driving I-4. It will also give me the option of flying in and out of Tampa (Flights at times are cheaper from Tampa, compared to MCO).
I am hoping that they will also offer some kind of FL resident pass.

 

[fillerup]

They have said that it would be aprox $45 round trip from WDW to Tampa, and $65 from MCO to Tampa. I live REALLY close to wdw, and it still costs me a that in fuel in get to Tampa, plus it will be faster than driving I-4. It will also give me the option of flying in and out of Tampa (Flights at times are cheaper from Tampa, compared to MCO).
I am hoping that they will also offer some kind of FL resident pass.

A few things - When the Florida DOT did a survey on who might ride the HSR, the lowest round trip fare from MCO to Tampa they mentioned was $54, although from Disney, it may well be $45.

Have you factored in how you'll get around Tampa when you leave the train? The cab fare will be around $24 each way to the airport & Busch Gardens around $16. And as you probably know, Tampa voters just defeated a sales tax increase to pay for light rail.

Lastly, I've been told, although I cannot swear to this, that under Federal regs, resident discounts can't be offered, although discounts for regular commuters can be.

 

[fillerup]

Thought I'd post this link for those that follow HSR.

And no, I'm not making any comparison to Florida, it's apples and oranges.

California's High Speed Train to Nowhere

 

[lazyboy97o]

They have said that it would be aprox $45 round trip from WDW to Tampa, and $65 from MCO to Tampa. I live REALLY close to wdw, and it still costs me a that in fuel in get to Tampa, plus it will be faster than driving I-4. It will also give me the option of flying in and out of Tampa (Flights at times are cheaper from Tampa, compared to MCO).
I am hoping that they will also offer some kind of FL resident pass.

It will not be much faster. You will also likely have to pay to park your car at the station. Then pay to get around Tampa, most likely a cab. Is it still worth the cost and additional time?

 

[jt04]

It will not be much faster. You will also likely have to pay to park your car at the station. Then pay to get around Tampa, most likely a cab. Is it still worth the cost and additional time?

Again, I think this situation is best viewed by how conditions will be in 5 years or more. If the HSR is built it is much more likely that Tampa would build a much more comprehensive light rail system. Polls support this. And I-4 will be busier than it is now.

Why not build it and see how it does. The money allocated is going to be spent on HSR. Why not spend it on a system that at least has some chance of working? Rather than flushing it down the toilet in a state that can't manage a budget such as California.

The WDW element gives the Florida link a fighting chance.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Again, I think this situation is best viewed by how conditions will be in 5 years or more. If the HSR is built it is much more likely that Tampa would build a much more comprehensive light rail system. Polls support this. And I-4 will be busier than it is now.

It would take at least a decade for Tampa to build anything, years during which the whole high speed rail project will build a negative reputation for going nowhere.

 

[stlbobby]

I have to agree wholeheartedly with you. And I'm a car fanatic. I love cars, everything about them... the styling, the engineering, and the fun they can provide on the right road and on the track. But commuting on the highway is my own personal slice of hell.

Hey I'm all for people who enjoy the open road, changing oil, and waxing, owning cars. I think they are a great hobby and I can even admire the engineering. Even I get excited at the idea of driving a high powered sports car.

I just don't think it's healthy for us to build our society around
necessitating everyone own and maintain an auto.

I also think we need a reliable system of highways connecting major metro areas to move materials easily about the country, but having six to twelve lanes running through and around cities so people can trek hours a day is ridiculous.

 

[stlbobby]

I completely disagree. Cars are not embedded in our culture because of some myth or marketing effort. Cars do provide a level of freedom and convenience not found in any other form of transportation. It's not even close.

This is all opinion and really depends on your perspective. You may see having a car as freedom, but others, such as myself, see it as a massive albatross around our necks.

If I only had all of the time I spend in a year dealing with my car back I would have several extra days to do with as I wish. That sounds like freedom. If I had all the money I throw into maintenance, licencing, and insurance I could easily take another really nice WDW vacation.

And if you are unfortunate enough to not have the money for a car or are too young to drive, mass transit is not only freedom, but provides the real possibility of improving your life through access to wider employment and education opportunities. It's not even close.

 

[TimeTrip]

This is all opinion and really depends on your perspective. You may see having a car as freedom, but others, such as myself, see it as a massive albatross around our necks.

If I only had all of the time I spend in a year dealing with my car back I would have several extra days to do with as I wish. That sounds like freedom. If I had all the money I throw into maintenance, licencing, and insurance I could easily take another really nice WDW vacation.

And if you are unfortunate enough to not have the money for a car or are too young to drive, mass transit is not only freedom, but provides the real possibility of improving your life through access to wider employment and education opportunities. It's not even close.

Then why don't you move somewhere like NYC where you don't need a car? That sounds ideal for you. But don't forget that you'll probably be paying a lot more for housing that is probably much smaller than your current location. That's the price you'll probably have to pay to live in an area where wide scale mass transit makes sense and is implemented. Some of us would rather pay less in living expenses and own a car even if you spend money on it because of the flexibility it provides.

 

[fillerup]

It would take at least a decade for Tampa to build anything, years during which the whole high speed rail project will build a negative reputation for going nowhere.

Interesting that you posted this - I bolded part of your statement.

The NY Times published an article on this very topic last March called Stimulus Plan for Rail Line Shows System of Weak Links

Here's one paragraph regarding Orlando/Tampa:

"Proponents of high-speed rail worry that the new line, which is scheduled to be up and running in 2015, might hurt rather than help their cause, if it comes to be seen as little more than an expensive way to whisk tourists from Orlando International Airport to Walt Disney World, which is slated to get its own stop"

Another couple of paragraphs regarding destination Tampa:

"Tourists who try to use public transportation, rather than renting a car, may find themselves seeing sights they would rather avoid and missing some they would like to see. As the Frommer’s travel guide to Tampa advises, “Like most other Florida destinations, it’s virtually impossible to see Tampa’s major sights and enjoy its best restaurants without a car.”


A couple of tourists from Chilliwack, British Columbia — Allana Strickland and her teenage daughter, Sarah McKenzie — learned this firsthand recently. When they took the public bus from Tampa to the Salvador Dali Museum in nearby St. Petersburg, a major draw in the region, they found themselves on a journey that lasted more than two and half hours to go less than 20 miles."