Orlando High Speed Rail IS DEFINITE

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RETLAW

Active Member
A few things - When the Florida DOT did a survey on who might ride the HSR, the lowest round trip fare from MCO to Tampa they mentioned was $54, although from Disney, it may well be $45.

Have you factored in how you'll get around Tampa when you leave the train? The cab fare will be around $24 each way to the airport & Busch Gardens around $16. And as you probably know, Tampa voters just defeated a sales tax increase to pay for light rail.

Lastly, I've been told, although I cannot swear to this, that under Federal regs, resident discounts can't be offered, although discounts for regular commuters can be.

One thing that I have heard via a friend (Not a bus driver :rolleyes:, and not an hourly worker) that works at Busch Gardens, that they will offer free transportation from the train station to the park. If this is really true, I will be getting an annual pass for BG again. If I want to do something other than BG, then I will have to consider time and cost at that time.
Over all, I really like the option of having the train. I can only hope that it will take some more horrid tourist (some locals also) drivers off the road:fork:.
The last couple of days have been horrible with the way people are driving.
I know that there are pros and cons to the HSR, but I think that it will open up some new opproturnities for everyone. I hope that the stop isnt to far from Raymond James Stadium. I will us the rail for that!!! :sohappy:
 

rwdavis2

Active Member
THIS is a great question!

I think they will run an "out and back" shuttle in the times the HSR is not running. They have said the HSR will run hourly so let's use the top of the hour as an example. The HSR will leave MCO at the top of the hour and bypass WDW and go directly to Lakeland and then Tampa Airport. After the Tampa HSR leaves MCO a shuttle could arrive at the quarter hour and depart for the Convention Center/WDW. Another shuttle at the half hour and another at the 45 minute mark. This way the longest someone would have to wait is less than 30 minutes for a shuttle.

As for the operating expenses many are concerned about, there is enough of a captive audience (tourists arriving for Uni and WDW) that the operating expenses should be covered. I really think this will be like popular Amtrak lines and will make a profit. If so, the state could consider selling or leasing the line. If it is a big loser, at least we won't start wasting money trying to build a nationwide network of HSR.

I also believe there are places where HSR can work. This system, and it is a complete system, can prove that and if it does private industry can then get involved.

MCO to WDW will never be high speed rail. I doubt it will ever see 100mph.
HSR only makes sense over long distances with not too many stops. All rail lines are subsidized and never make a profit. I used to work for the company that made the MCO people mover. We also did heavy rail (subways). We looked into getting involved in MagLev which is a very serious boondoggle.

Only rail lines in high population areas (the east coast north of DC) make any sense. The travel times from DC-NYC-BOS are short enough to rival air travel times (including times getting through airports). They will never work cross country. Who would take a possibly multi-day train ride coast-to-coast vs. a 6-7 hour plane ride. AMTRAK prices from Baltimore to NYC can run well over $200 for reasonable departure/return times.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
MCO to WDW will never be high speed rail. I doubt it will ever see 100mph.
HSR only makes sense over long distances with not too many stops. All rail lines are subsidized and never make a profit. I used to work for the company that made the MCO people mover. We also did heavy rail (subways). We looked into getting involved in MagLev which is a very serious boondoggle.

Only rail lines in high population areas (the east coast north of DC) make any sense. The travel times from DC-NYC-BOS are short enough to rival air travel times (including times getting through airports). They will never work cross country. Who would take a possibly multi-day train ride coast-to-coast vs. a 6-7 hour plane ride. AMTRAK prices from Baltimore to NYC can run well over $200 for reasonable departure/return times.

Sorry but you do not have your facts. The HSR will have a stop at WDW if built. Of course it won't reach top speed between MCO and WDW but it will between Lakeland and WDW.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
One thing that I have heard via a friend (Not a bus driver :rolleyes:, and not an hourly worker) that works at Busch Gardens, that they will offer free transportation from the train station to the park. If this is really true, I will be getting an annual pass for BG again. If I want to do something other than BG, then I will have to consider time and cost at that time.
Over all, I really like the option of having the train. I can only hope that it will take some more horrid tourist (some locals also) drivers off the road:fork:.
The last couple of days have been horrible with the way people are driving.
I know that there are pros and cons to the HSR, but I think that it will open up some new opproturnities for everyone. I hope that the stop isnt to far from Raymond James Stadium. I will us the rail for that!!! :sohappy:

Yes, I am certain BG would offer transportation. I have a feeling Legoland will do the same from the Lakeland station. As for other connections, too many people are taking a too narrow view of what HSR will do and only seeing it in the short range. Long term is where HSR will be needed. Like around 2016. Not long after it would be completed.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Interesting that you posted this - I bolded part of your statement.

The NY Times published an article on this very topic last March called Stimulus Plan for Rail Line Shows System of Weak Links

Here's one paragraph regarding Orlando/Tampa:

"Proponents of high-speed rail worry that the new line, which is scheduled to be up and running in 2015, might hurt rather than help their cause, if it comes to be seen as little more than an expensive way to whisk tourists from Orlando International Airport to Walt Disney World, which is slated to get its own stop"

Another couple of paragraphs regarding destination Tampa:

"Tourists who try to use public transportation, rather than renting a car, may find themselves seeing sights they would rather avoid and missing some they would like to see. As the Frommer’s travel guide to Tampa advises, “Like most other Florida destinations, it’s virtually impossible to see Tampa’s major sights and enjoy its best restaurants without a car.”


A couple of tourists from Chilliwack, British Columbia — Allana Strickland and her teenage daughter, Sarah McKenzie — learned this firsthand recently. When they took the public bus from Tampa to the Salvador Dali Museum in nearby St. Petersburg, a major draw in the region, they found themselves on a journey that lasted more than two and half hours to go less than 20 miles."

NYTimes huh? Yeah, cause it is not as if they don't want to get a share of the money if Florida rejects it. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Seriously folks, consider the source. NY only can create jobs through government 'stimulus' as that state is going bankrupt along with California.

For me the HSR will happen if Disney gets behind it. If Disney does not want it, it won't happen. Simple as that.

And not because of the shallow unthinking reasoning in the article. The entire issue is much bigger than that. It really is. Since the Govenor elect was at WDW I have a strong feeling he heard Disney's real opinion and what their desires are. We will probably never know what was related to the new govenor but the final decision is likely now cast in stone.

And the NY Times probably has its frozen fingers crossed.
 

TimeTrip

Well-Known Member
NYTimes huh? Yeah, cause it is not as if they don't want to get a share of the money if Florida rejects it. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Seriously folks, consider the source. NY only can create jobs through government 'stimulus' as that state is going bankrupt along with California.

Thats the first time in a while I've heard someone question the integrity of the NY Times. Its not like this is the NY Daily News or NY post. The NY times is not a rag. You're also saying they're downtalking the HSR from orlando to tampa because they want a hand-out from the government? That so cynical it's almost ridiculous. The article has some pretty good points if you could get past your conspiracy theory.

And the NY Times probably has its frozen fingers crossed.
:brick:
 

stlbobby

Well-Known Member
Then why don't you move somewhere like NYC where you don't need a car? That sounds ideal for you. But don't forget that you'll probably be paying a lot more for housing that is probably much smaller than your current location. That's the price you'll probably have to pay to live in an area where wide scale mass transit makes sense and is implemented. Some of us would rather pay less in living expenses and own a car even if you spend money on it because of the flexibility it provides.

The flexibility is only perceived.
 

TimeTrip

Well-Known Member
The flexibility is only perceived.
Not to me :) I can go where I want to go, when I want to go, and I don't have a crazy commute. When I go shopping for food, I can put the bags in the car, and not have to lug it from a bus stop or train station to my residence. I can go take a road trip for a weekend if I felt like it. Not sure why that isn't flexible.

Like I said, if you want your mass transit nirvana, move to NYC or maybe some place like Chicago. Just be prepared to pay for it in more ways than one. I originally came from NY to live in FL because the NYC style of living because I like having my own car and prefer the FL style of living; better weather, less income tax, bigger houses, and being near Disney.

I have friends who have felt the opposite, and made the move from FL to NYC and love it because they like being able to ride the subway everywhere and have world-class clubs to go to and enjoy city-life. It's all about personal preference, but you should keep in mind what else comes along with the choice you make.
 

stlbobby

Well-Known Member
I have friends who have felt the opposite, and made the move from FL to NYC and love it because they like being able to ride the subway everywhere and have world-class clubs to go to and enjoy city-life. It's all about personal preference, but you should keep in mind what else comes along with the choice you make.

You are now making my point. You perceive freedom one way while others perceive it differently, but you keep stating that the freedom is absolute. It is not. Many people consider their cars nothing but a hassle that drags them down.

The marketing of the automobile for over a century as some sort of passport to freedom has brainwashed the public. As I said before the auto industry marketing people are genii for aligning there product in such a way. I give them full credit.

How about this for freedom. A mass transit system that connects all the major cities and moves people with-in them, but doesn't cost the riders anything. Anyone could get on a train and go anywhere regardless of socio-economic status, opening the entire country to endless educational and employment opportunities. That is freedom.
 

orky8

Well-Known Member
How about this for freedom. A mass transit system that connects all the major cities and moves people with-in them, but doesn't cost the riders anything. Anyone could get on a train and go anywhere regardless of socio-economic status, opening the entire country to endless educational and employment opportunities. That is freedom.

How is that freedom? I, at the barrel of Uncle Sam's gun, must pay more taxes and work more hours to pay for this boondogle utopian system of yours. I feel freer already. Thanks, I really appreciate you lecturing us about freedom when you clearly have no comprehension of the what the word means. :brick:

HSR connecting all the cities may be convenient, but we already have that -- they are called AIRPLANES. Its ironic how somehow because Europe has HSR people think it must be something grand and mysterious. Trains were invented before cars even. Then technology evolved -- we could go places without rails using automobiles. Then, we figured out that we could go places faster and safer if we used devices that went in the air above the traffic (we call them planes).

HSR works in Europe because the cities are close together. It works okay in the Northeast, but its not the panacea you seem to think it is and has been very expensive for Amtrak. And the Acela is far from free - you can fly cheaper. In any event building them on the backs of the already debt-laden taxpayers is certainly not the definition of freedom.
 

stlbobby

Well-Known Member
How is that freedom? I, at the barrel of Uncle Sam's gun, must pay more taxes and work more hours to pay for this boondogle utopian system of yours. I feel freer already. Thanks, I really appreciate you lecturing us about freedom when you clearly have no comprehension of the what the word means. :brick:

HSR connecting all the cities may be convenient, but we already have that -- they are called AIRPLANES. Its ironic how somehow because Europe has HSR people think it must be something grand and mysterious. Trains were invented before cars even. Then technology evolved -- we could go places without rails using automobiles. Then, we figured out that we could go places faster and safer if we used devices that went in the air above the traffic (we call them planes).

HSR works in Europe because the cities are close together. It works okay in the Northeast, but its not the panacea you seem to think it is and has been very expensive for Amtrak. And the Acela is far from free - you can fly cheaper. In any event building them on the backs of the already debt-laden taxpayers is certainly not the definition of freedom.

It's true freedom of movement. Freedom from oil changes. Freedom from tedious and nerve wracking commuting. Freedom from gasoline prices. Freedom from oil producing countries. Freedom from crippling environmental destruction.

It's freedom for everyone, not just freedom for those that can afford it, and even the wealthy would benefit from the ability to read, work, or socialize during their commute rather than sitting in traffic getting angrier and angrier.

I never said anything about Europe. I don't know where that came from. Air travel is expensive and doesn't serve the same purpose I am discussing. It too has become a tedious mess in recent years.

I also never said Amtrak was the answer or was train technology from the gold rush, but new modern technology implemented in a sound and progressive manner.

As for the tax burden argument it is ridiculous on three parts. First our tax base is lower than it has been since WWII. No one is being crushed by taxes. Our tax base is too low that is the problem.

Second, taxes are intended for this type of project. The project I described is why we have governments, too administer large projects for the greater good of everyone. The government, and by extension our taxes, are supposed to take issues such as transportation, defense, police and fire protection, and create an efficient system that works for everyone.

Third, you are forgetting that if there were a reliable system of transport connecting the country you would save an enormous amount of money on a personal vehicle and air travel. It obviously would vary greatly from person to person but I believe it would end up saving most people money in the long run.

And if you are so gun-ho to lower taxes then why is it OK for the Federal Government to keep funding the highway system for your cars? Your freedom of movement is already built by "burdensome" taxes.

Finally, I know all about freedom. I have sworn an oath to the Constitution of the United States to uphold that freedom. I spent a year of my life in the streets of Baghdad avoiding bullets, grenades, and bombs to defend that freedom. I watched my comrades-in-arms die for that freedom. I have spent countless hours preparing hundreds of young men and women for the arduous task of leaving their family and friends to travel halfway around the world and defend our freedoms. And in all likely hood I will be heading to Afghanistan in the next few years to again put my life on the line for your freedom.

I know about freedom and I prefer your arguments stick to the facts rather than assassinate my character which, besides being in poor taste, does nothing to prove your point.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Thats the first time in a while I've heard someone question the integrity of the NY Times. Its not like this is the NY Daily News or NY post. The NY times is not a rag. You're also saying they're downtalking the HSR from orlando to tampa because they want a hand-out from the government? That so cynical it's almost ridiculous. The article has some pretty good points if you could get past your conspiracy theory.


:brick:

Uh huh. ("they" don't want the handout although "they" did lobby for a bailout along with other newspapers last year:rolleyes:).

Dwindling circulation, advertising dollars, and loss of credibilty notwithstanding, they are as much about advocacy as they are about information service. I don't think you realize how many people can decipher what they report now.

Your living in the past, man. :cool::lol:
 

stlbobby

Well-Known Member
As someone who has had to use only public transportation in the past, the flexibility of car ownership is real......

I too have lived without a car and it was one of the best times of my life. I keep trying to get back to that freedom, but the world keeps thwarting me.
 

orky8

Well-Known Member
It's true freedom of movement. Freedom from oil changes. Freedom from tedious and nerve wracking commuting. Freedom from gasoline prices. Freedom from oil producing countries. Freedom from crippling environmental destruction.

It's freedom for everyone, not just freedom for those that can afford it, and even the wealthy would benefit from the ability to read, work, or socialize during their commute rather than sitting in traffic getting angrier and angrier.

I never said anything about Europe. I don't know where that came from. Air travel is expensive and doesn't serve the same purpose I am discussing. It too has become a tedious mess in recent years.

I also never said Amtrak was the answer or was train technology from the gold rush, but new modern technology implemented in a sound and progressive manner.

As for the tax burden argument it is ridiculous on three parts. First our tax base is lower than it has been since WWII. No one is being crushed by taxes. Our tax base is too low that is the problem.

Second, taxes are intended for this type of project. The project I described is why we have governments, too administer large projects for the greater good of everyone. The government, and by extension our taxes, are supposed to take issues such as transportation, defense, police and fire protection, and create an efficient system that works for everyone.

Third, you are forgetting that if there were a reliable system of transport connecting the country you would save an enormous amount of money on a personal vehicle and air travel. It obviously would vary greatly from person to person but I believe it would end up saving most people money in the long run.

And if you are so gun-ho to lower taxes then why is it OK for the Federal Government to keep funding the highway system for your cars? Your freedom of movement is already built by "burdensome" taxes.

Finally, I know all about freedom. I have sworn an oath to the Constitution of the United States to uphold that freedom. I spent a year of my life in the streets of Baghdad avoiding bullets, grenades, and bombs to defend that freedom. I watched my comrades-in-arms die for that freedom. I have spent countless hours preparing hundreds of young men and women for the arduous task of leaving their family and friends to travel halfway around the world and defend our freedoms. And in all likely hood I will be heading to Afghanistan in the next few years to again put my life on the line for your freedom.

I know about freedom and I prefer your arguments stick to the facts rather than assassinate my character which, besides being in poor taste, does nothing to prove your point.


Thread de-rail (get it).

I never meant to attack your character, and indeed removed language from my original post that I thought might be construed that way. But, in any event, I apologize if I did. And, thank you, sincerely, for your service.

BUT, while I commend your service, it doesn't give you a free pass to make ridiculous arguments. Your understanding of the term "freedom" I think is still way off base, or at least inconsistent. In your first few paragraphs you equate freedom with movement, and while that may be a type of freedom, it is certainly not what most people would consider when they think of "Freedom." Freedom is choice over how to live one's life (like in your third paragraph), not whether to take a train or a bus.

Cars, buses, and planes offer the freedom of movement you seek but at less expense to EVERYONE. Trains simply aren't a good solution. They are incredibly inflexible. A huge portion of the cost is sunk on creating an unmovable, unchangeable infrastructure and not on the actual vehicle to get one from place A to B. I don't see what a train offers you that a plane, car, or bus doesn't. You say cost, but that is patently untrue unless the cost is subsidized by the taxpayer. The Acela is the only high-speed rail in this country and it costs more to take the Acela from DC to NY than to fly. Granted, if the taxpayers picked up the tab, it wouldn't, but the same can be said of airplanes. If I paid for you to fly from DC to Orlando then flying would be cheaper, for you, but that doesn't mean it was free.

It's not "freedom" for everyone. It's "free"dom for the select few who utilize the train service. For the rest of the country, it is an expense for something they neither need nor want. Why should a person from Oklahoma (or pick any state) care for or pay for HSR from Orlando to Tampa. If the people of Florida think it is a worthwhile investment, then they should pay for it. Oh wait, they don't, and have said so many, many times.

Pointing to the FHWA is unavailing to me because guess what, I don't support that either. Just because we are doing something that is wrong right now, doesn't mean we should do something that is even more wrong. That's just plain stupid.

As to your first paragraph - freedom of movement -- no its not. The trains in New York were just as stuck in the Blizzard as the planes and cars--in fact, I think more so. And, as someone who lives in DC and takes the metro everyday to commute, I promise you no-one here considers it to be freedom from a nerve-wracking commute. Metro frays more nerves around here than anything else, and that is saying a lot. At least once a week metro makes me 30 minutes late to work. It's not uncommon to be over an hour late. It's also not faster even when it works perfectly. Nor is it cheaper anymore.

You say "if there were a reliable system connecting the cities" as if planes and buses and cars don't exist. There IS a reliable system connecting US cities. Flying is incredibly reliable. Flying is also CHEAPER. It is also SAFER. Yes, the TSA is a pain, but if trains were our primary transportation, then it would be the terrorist target (like the Spain bombing or Tube attacks) and it wouldn't be long before taking a train is the same pain that flying is.

Trains simply aren't the panacea you think they are, and, they operate at a huge loss that has to be subsidized by those that don't use the service. The only legitimate point you made is that the transportations that use fossil fuels have imperiled us by making us dependent on foreign oil. While we do need to do something about that, I hardly think throwing away hundreds of billions of dollars on HSR is really going to very far in solving that dilemma.

If your primary goal is socio-economic equality, then lets give free bus rides (or plane rides) to everyone. That still has nothing to do with why we should waste any money on HSR.

OH, and like Walt, I love trains and monorails. Have since I was kid. I just don't believe in wasting taxpayer money. The first, and still best in my mind, reliable monorail in the country was built entirely of private funds, by Disney.
 

mp2bill

Well-Known Member
Yeah but with Rick Scott going into office he might cancel the project. He opposes the idea of it.

Yeah, he also wants to make people do community service in order to collect unemployment. Doesn't sounds like he has all marbles. Too bad Crist decided to go for Senate.
 

mp2bill

Well-Known Member
Thread de-rail (get it).

I never meant to attack your character, and indeed removed language from my original post that I thought might be construed that way. But, in any event, I apologize if I did. And, thank you, sincerely, for your service.

BUT, while I commend your service, it doesn't give you a free pass to make ridiculous arguments. Your understanding of the term "freedom" I think is still way off base, or at least inconsistent. In your first few paragraphs you equate freedom with movement, and while that may be a type of freedom, it is certainly not what most people would consider when they think of "Freedom." Freedom is choice over how to live one's life (like in your third paragraph), not whether to take a train or a bus.

Cars, buses, and planes offer the freedom of movement you seek but at less expense to EVERYONE. Trains simply aren't a good solution. They are incredibly inflexible. A huge portion of the cost is sunk on creating an unmovable, unchangeable infrastructure and not on the actual vehicle to get one from place A to B. I don't see what a train offers you that a plane, car, or bus doesn't. You say cost, but that is patently untrue unless the cost is subsidized by the taxpayer. The Acela is the only high-speed rail in this country and it costs more to take the Acela from DC to NY than to fly. Granted, if the taxpayers picked up the tab, it wouldn't, but the same can be said of airplanes. If I paid for you to fly from DC to Orlando then flying would be cheaper, for you, but that doesn't mean it was free.

It's not "freedom" for everyone. It's "free"dom for the select few who utilize the train service. For the rest of the country, it is an expense for something they neither need nor want. Why should a person from Oklahoma (or pick any state) care for or pay for HSR from Orlando to Tampa. If the people of Florida think it is a worthwhile investment, then they should pay for it. Oh wait, they don't, and have said so many, many times.

Pointing to the FHWA is unavailing to me because guess what, I don't support that either. Just because we are doing something that is wrong right now, doesn't mean we should do something that is even more wrong. That's just plain stupid.

As to your first paragraph - freedom of movement -- no its not. The trains in New York were just as stuck in the Blizzard as the planes and cars--in fact, I think more so. And, as someone who lives in DC and takes the metro everyday to commute, I promise you no-one here considers it to be freedom from a nerve-wracking commute. Metro frays more nerves around here than anything else, and that is saying a lot. At least once a week metro makes me 30 minutes late to work. It's not uncommon to be over an hour late. It's also not faster even when it works perfectly. Nor is it cheaper anymore.

You say "if there were a reliable system connecting the cities" as if planes and buses and cars don't exist. There IS a reliable system connecting US cities. Flying is incredibly reliable. Flying is also CHEAPER. It is also SAFER. Yes, the TSA is a pain, but if trains were our primary transportation, then it would be the terrorist target (like the Spain bombing or Tube attacks) and it wouldn't be long before taking a train is the same pain that flying is.

Trains simply aren't the panacea you think they are, and, they operate at a huge loss that has to be subsidized by those that don't use the service. The only legitimate point you made is that the transportations that use fossil fuels have imperiled us by making us dependent on foreign oil. While we do need to do something about that, I hardly think throwing away hundreds of billions of dollars on HSR is really going to very far in solving that dilemma.

If your primary goal is socio-economic equality, then lets give free bus rides (or plane rides) to everyone. That still has nothing to do with why we should waste any money on HSR.

OH, and like Walt, I love trains and monorails. Have since I was kid. I just don't believe in wasting taxpayer money. The first, and still best in my mind, reliable monorail in the country was built entirely of private funds, by Disney.

You do realize that the government subsidizes the aviation industry at a much high level than the train system, right? Not only is taxpayer money used to upkeep and build airports and the aviation systems, but the government gives huge taxbreaks so that the individual companies can keep their businesses up and running. It's just like the automotive and banking systems...they're too big to fail.

Bottom line, and this is just my opinion...a viable high speed rail system needs to be implemented so that there is more competition, thus lowering prices on both air and rail.
 

stlbobby

Well-Known Member
Cars, buses, and planes offer the freedom of movement you seek but at less expense to EVERYONE.

You don't really know this to be true. When you take the cost of purchasing a vehicle, maintaining a vehicle, gasoline, and the taxes for road construction and repair, a subsidized rail system might end up being cheaper. I don't know for sure. I doubt a serious study has been done to evaluate a radical system change like the one I am suggesting. So you cannot really say it would be more expensive. We just don't know.

Trains simply aren't a good solution. They are incredibly inflexible. A huge portion of the cost is sunk on creating an unmovable, unchangeable infrastructure and not on the actual vehicle to get one from place A to B.

This exact same thing could be said of the highway and road system.

I don't see what a train offers you that a plane, car, or bus doesn't.

The system I proposed offers convenience over cars, efficiency over planes, and environmental and speed benefits over buses.

You say cost, but that is patently untrue unless the cost is subsidized by the taxpayer.

My entire point has always been a subsidized system. Where taxes pay for the trains and the riders ride for free (just like our current highway system). It was never about lowering ticket prices.

It's not "freedom" for everyone. It's "free"dom for the select few who utilize the train service.

If the system were designed and built correctly everyone would want to use it, and we would no longer be building eight lane highways to suburbs two hours from cities. The trains would replace them.

For the rest of the country, it is an expense for something they neither need nor want. Why should a person from Oklahoma (or pick any state) care for or pay for HSR from Orlando to Tampa.

Just like my tax dollars pay for highways I will never drive in OK, CA, NY, WA, TN, AZ...When the first interstates were built the funds came from all over the country, but only used in small regions. It has to start somewhere.

If the people of Florida think it is a worthwhile investment, then they should pay for it. Oh wait, they don't, and have said so many, many times.

I never said my idea was popular. In fact my original point many posts back was that the automotive industry has done an amazing job convincing people that a $25-50 thousand dollar money pit is a symbol of freedom enshrined in the Constitution. All along I have been pointing out how the perception of vehicular freedom is coloring the argument.

Pointing to the FHWA is unavailing to me because guess what, I don't support that either. Just because we are doing something that is wrong right now, doesn't mean we should do something that is even more wrong. That's just plain stupid.

If you don't have the highway system then cars lose the ability to move about the country. The roads are what give cars their advantage take away the roads and cars lose any freedom they have. So how can you be for cars, but against roads?

As to your first paragraph - freedom of movement -- no its not. The trains in New York were just as stuck in the Blizzard as the planes and cars--in fact, I think more so.

I'm not an expert on this, but the one story I read said it was the first time snow had stalled trains in the history of the system. Service had been interrupted before but the trains had never been stuck in transit. Obviously that is a rare situation and one that shut down the roads and airports as well. So it is really a moot point.

And, as someone who lives in DC and takes the metro everyday to commute, I promise you no-one here considers it to be freedom from a nerve-wracking commute. Metro frays more nerves around here than anything else, and that is saying a lot. At least once a week metro makes me 30 minutes late to work. It's not uncommon to be over an hour late.

This seems odd because all of the studies I have read have found these systems to be reliable and DC's has always gotten good, not rave but good, reviews. I personally lived in DC for a few months and loved the Metro. I also know people who currently live in DC and love the Metro and the fact it allows them to forgo having a car, so your "promise" is false.

It's also not faster even when it works perfectly.

I never said it would be faster. In some places it would shorten commutes in others it would not. But a well planned and constructed system should get most people where they are going in an efficient manner.

You say "if there were a reliable system connecting the cities" as if planes and buses and cars don't exist. There IS a reliable system connecting US cities. Flying is incredibly reliable. Flying is also CHEAPER.

I never said flying was unreliable, just a nuisance. And I seriously doubt when you take into account taxes for airport construction, maintenance, and operations and add it to the cost of a ticket that flying is actually cheaper. And just because we have a system in place doesn't mean we shouldn't look for better systems.

It is also SAFER. Yes, the TSA is a pain, but if trains were our primary transportation, then it would be the terrorist target (like the Spain bombing or Tube attacks) and it wouldn't be long before taking a train is the same pain that flying is.

Yes trains would become terrorist targets, but trains are harder targets for two reasons. One, they are heartier than planes. The whole thing doesn't fall out of the sky if one small bomb goes off so there is less collateral damage. Two, trains cannot be used as weapons because they are on fixed tracks.

Trains simply aren't the panacea you think they are, and, they operate at a huge loss that has to be subsidized by those that don't use the service.

Again I have never said they would make money or even pay for themselves. They would be built and maintained through taxes just like our current system of roads. If you are worried about the users subsidizing the system and not the taxpayers, shouldn't all roads be toll roads?

The only legitimate point you made is that the transportations that use fossil fuels have imperiled us by making us dependent on foreign oil. While we do need to do something about that, I hardly think throwing away hundreds of billions of dollars on HSR is really going to very far in solving that dilemma.

If we built a system that took only 1/10th the cars off the road it we be a huge win. My system as envisioned would remove most daily commuters, and a good percentage of road trippers, and eliminate a good deal of air traffic. If that were to happen then foreign oil would be completely unnecessary.

If your primary goal is socio-economic equality, then lets give free bus rides (or plane rides) to everyone.

Making the bus lines free would be a step in the right direction. Ridership would increase dramatically if fares were eliminated, taking tons of cars off the road. But buses are not as efficient as trains.

That still has nothing to do with why we should waste any money on HSR.

This is my point, you, as most people, have been convinced that HSR and metro trains are a waste. But that is a perception not a fact. To me millions of miles of concrete and black-top are a waste, I'm just trying to get others to see my point or at least acknowledge their bias.

OH, and like Walt, I love trains and monorails. Have since I was kid. I just don't believe in wasting taxpayer money. The first, and still best in my mind, reliable monorail in the country was built entirely of private funds, by Disney.

The basic argument here is what is seen as wasting taxpayer money. You, and most people, see trains as wasted money, but have no problem dumping endless amounts of cash into roads and airports.

I will never use most of the highways my taxes pay for, just as I would never use most of the rail lines. Until recently I never had a job where I used a highway daily, but I paid my taxes on them for forty years, how is that different than paying for a rail line you won't use regularly?

The difference is this perceived notion of freedom. A notion the car companies have embedded in our society. That freedom isn't free. We pay taxes on roads, we pay for vehicles, we pay to keep them running. If you are a gearhead and enjoy changing your oil and dropping a tranny then you are lucky. For most people it a burden. I see trains as freedom from that burden.

I am lucky now. I have enough money to mitigate the headaches. I can afford a new vehicle. I can afford AAA in case of emergency. I can afford to have a mechanic provide regular maintenance. And a major malfunction will not cripple my finances, yet every time I get behind the wheel I am nervous and agitated. These things are only worse if you do not have the luxury of disposable income.

My point was not that trains are a cure-all or even self sustaining. But I think they would solve a lot of problems from energy consumption to road rage. Their is just a bias against them because of this perception of freedom.

I'm just pointing out you aren't as free as you think you are.
 
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