Orlando High Speed Rail IS DEFINITE

[jt04]

Why are all of these retired persons commuting between Orlando and Tampa?

They would be using I-4 no matter if they are going between the two cities. Thereby creating gridlock.


These traffic jams have yet to create a demand for regular air travel. People here in Atlanta sit in traffic on GA 400 and watch MARTA trains zip past them twice a day. The reason people still bother to deal with the traffic is because it is still a pain to travel between the rail line and their final destination.

Apples/Oranges. MARTA is a commuter line. An HSR linking two growing (and eventually merging) metro areas that also contains the number one tourist destination in the world creates very very unique dynamics that are not found elsewhere except possibly L.A. I believe a major reason to build such a line is to see if it can alleviate over-crowding of airports and eliminate the need for regular air travel between such closely placed cities. Among many other possibilities HSR can address in certain specific situations.


What advantage do the heigh speed trains offer, besides their capacity, over the Amtrak trains that are already there? Weather and closer running times are going to reduce the speed at which the trains will be able to travel.

That is what real world operations can determine. You really need to travel to Europe to get a taste of how efficient well planned rail travel can be. It is amazing and if done right adds to a more efficient economy. I don't believe at all in a national network for the US. That is ridiculous. But in specific circumstances it is the best option by far. It will save money in the long run and create private sector economic growth. Highways have "operating costs" too.

Just a reminder, the Silver Star from Orlando to Tampa costs $10 for a coach ticket and takes 2:03 to complete. Why are people not flocking to this existing option? Why not expand this service? Dedicated right of way, that could easily accommodate future high speed rail, would allow these existing trains to travel at a faster speed without having to coordinate as much with the freight companies.

Because I-4 has not become clogged again and gas prices are still reasonable for starters. Also it does not terminate at an airport or major tourist destination. Although you may see lines such as you describe become attractive for rail travel again as extensions to the HSR. But building the HSR is nesessary to find out. That is one of the major points I keep making. It will be a test but a test with little risk to the taxpayers. It can be viewed as a complete system that would serve important functions but also may open up many other possibilities. Kind of like the space program creates all sorts of unforseen technological spin-offs.

I notice you fail to comment on the role the HSR could play in a hurricane emergency.

This is POINTLESS

^So was your comment. Plenty of other threads you can troll if you don't like this one. Bye. :wave:

EDIT: Here is an excellent article. It predicts the HSR would "break even" in the 1st year!

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/dec/09/wisconsin-ohio-rail-money-going-to-other-states/

And create 10,000 jobs to build it. No brainer.

.

 

[TimeTrip]

Apples/Oranges. MARTA is a commuter line. An HSR linking two growing (and eventually merging) metro areas that also contains the number one tourist destination in the world creates very very unique dynamics that are not found elsewhere except possibly L.A.

I still don't understand your reasoning here. Tampa to Orlando really isn't a great example for HSR. I also can't believe you're seriously comparing the LA area to Tampa/Orlando. You are seriously reaching here.

I believe a major reason to build such a line is to see if it can alleviate over-crowding of airports and eliminate the need for regular air travel between such closely placed cities. Among many other possibilities HSR can address in certain specific situations.

Tampa and Orlando airports are overcrowded? Seriously?? And there IS NO regular air travel between the two... so why is that even an argument you're putting forward?

That is what real world operations can determine. You really need to travel to Europe to get a taste of how efficient well planned rail travel can be. It is amazing and if done right adds to a more efficient economy. I don't believe at all in a national network for the US. That is ridiculous. But in specific circumstances it is the best option by far.

I agree, but Tampa/Orlando is a horrible place to try to experiment. Also, as has been pointed out many a time, most of Florida doesn't really fit Europes "layout" which is somewhat conducive to that kind of travel.

I notice you fail to comment on the role the HSR could play in a hurricane emergency.

I know that wasn't directed at me personally, but I just think you're reaching at a whole bundle of straws to come up with reasons to justify HSR. You really think HSR in a hurricane evacuation will have a major impact? Sure it will help a few people, but it's not like they can suddenly miracle up a ton of extra trains in an emergency like this... not to mention issues with getting to the station in the first place or figuring out where to leave the mass of cars that would need to be left there.

^So was your comment. Plenty of other threads you can troll if you don't like this one. Bye. :wave:

You're pretty dismissive for someone who is bullish on HSR on minute then bearish the next. You also keep on harping upon the need to prove that "you're right", then say "HSR will not happen" then "HSR is definite". I understand your reasons for hopping back and forth and they're valid, but to dismiss that other poster as a troll when he/she had some pretty valid points is pretty unfair IMO.

EDIT: Here is an excellent article. It predicts the HSR would "break even" in the 1st year!

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/dec/09/wisconsin-ohio-rail-money-going-to-other-states/

I'm pretty skeptical of that, so I'd love to see the report. If it REALLY COULD break even in year one, then I'm all for it

 

[lazyboy97o]

They would be using I-4 no matter if they are going between the two cities. Thereby creating gridlock.

In the cities in which they reside, not between the two, where high speed rail would run. Local transit would be a means of trying to deal with the problem you describe.

Apples/Oranges. MARTA is a commuter line. An HSR linking two growing (and eventually merging) metro areas that also contains the number one tourist destination in the world creates very very unique dynamics that are not found elsewhere except possibly L.A.

It is the same principle. People may one day save time traveling between Orlando and Tampa, but they will pass at these time savings if getting to and from the train is a pain.

I believe a major reason to build such a line is to see if it can alleviate over-crowding of airports and eliminate the need for regular air travel between such closely placed cities. Among many other possibilities HSR can address in certain specific situations.

Once again, there is NO regular air travel between Orlando and Tampa. None. Zero. Zilch.

That is what real world operations can determine.

Capacity and traveling speeds are not going to be determined only after thre system is built. The system will be built to handle certain speeds under certain conditions.

You really need to travel to Europe to get a taste of how efficient well planned rail travel can be.

I have thank you.

It will save money in the long run and create private sector economic growth. Highways have "operating costs" too.

Only two high speed rail lines in the world generate profit.

Because I-4 has not become clogged again and gas prices are still reasonable for starters. Also it does not terminate at an airport or major tourist destination.

And no high speed rail connection exists either. That is why I suggested conventional rail as a cheaper alternative for this route.

Although you may see lines such as you describe become attractive for rail travel again as extensions to the HSR. But building the HSR is nesessary to find out. That is one of the major points I keep making. It will be a test but a test with little risk to the taxpayers. It can be viewed as a complete system that would serve important functions but also may open up many other possibilities. Kind of like the space program creates all sorts of unforseen technological spin-offs.

The state plans to purchase existing technology. The closest talks have come to using new technology is Bombardier's JetTrain.

I notice you fail to comment on the role the HSR could play in a hurricane emergency.

Well, then pay more attention.
"What advantage do the heigh speed trains offer, besides their capacity, over the Amtrak trains that are already there? Weather and closer running times are going to reduce the speed at which the trains will be able to travel."


Your little quote system of using red makes it quite difficult to actually quote you.

 

[ABigBrassBand]

This should be interesting if it ever happens.

 

[JEANYLASER]

yeah! very interesting!

 

[jt04]

In the cities in which they reside, not between the two, where high speed rail would run. Local transit would be a means of trying to deal with the problem you describe.

No, local I-4 traffic makes up the majority of traffic on the road. So, travel between Orlando/Tampa will only become increasingly difficult as the population "boomers'. :lol: Get it? Boomers?........Sorry Hence the need for alternative transportation. Instead of a regular air route between the cities that will only further congest the airports, HSR makes much more sense in this situation.


It is the same principle. People may one day save time traveling between Orlando and Tampa, but they will pass at these time savings if getting to and from the train is a pain.

And getting to and from the airports is easier? No it won't be. And I-4 will only become further and further gridlocked. Orlando has already approved commuter lines. Tampa will follow as the HSR becomes reality and so will WDW IMO. Jobs, jobs and more jobs.


Once again, there is NO regular air travel between Orlando and Tampa. None. Zero. Zilch.

Which makes my point. Air travel is not practical in this scenario. Rail travel is. But first the system needs a backbone which the HSR will provide.

Capacity and traveling speeds are not going to be determined only after thre system is built. The system will be built to handle certain speeds under certain conditions.

This makes another of my points. This system has a built in customer base so it can never be a big failure even in worse case scenarios. But it will provide quantitative data that will allow studies to determine HSR's practicality around the country. No sense in building a bunch of half-baked HSR "tracks to nowhwere" if it is not a success here. Success being determine by if it is more efficient than widening I-4, oil industry subsidies etc etc. Studies indicate however, that the HSR would break even from day 1. I absolutely believe that. Especially if the MCO-CC-WDW segment is brought on line first as Mica suggests.


Only two high speed rail lines in the world generate profit.

So now there will be a third.


And no high speed rail connection exists either. That is why I suggested conventional rail as a cheaper alternative for this route.

Cheaper maybe but it does not allow for 2 things at the very least. HSR will be a magnet and encourage rail travel. People will travel here just to experience it. Second, and most important as I keep mentioning, it will provide a real world test of HSR in the US. That could save a huge amount of money in the long run if it proves to be a failure. Which it won't BTW. It will spur other HSR applications in situations where it can add to a more efficient economy and spur other private capital spending. Las Vegas would not exist if not for the Hoover Dam. Think of HSR in the same way. It can create private sector opportunities if done right.


The state plans to purchase existing technology. The closest talks have come to using new technology is Bombardier's JetTrain.


Well, then pay more attention.
"What advantage do the heigh speed trains offer, besides their capacity, over the Amtrak trains that are already there? Weather and closer running times are going to reduce the speed at which the trains will be able to travel."

Two points here. If I-4 is clogged, as happened in Houston a few years ago during an evacuation, then rail and air will be the only available means out. Evacuations take place before the weather hits in Hurricane emergencies. Shuttling trains may reduce the speed but it would still be faster than nothing. My guess is they could evacuate tens of thousands and those would be people not on I-4 facilitating even a smoother flow. If a major hurricane/tidal surge ever hit Tampa Bay it would make Katrina look mild. Also, the train may be the only way in and out after a storm too because of temporary flooding.


Your little quote system of using red makes it quite difficult to actually quote you.

Sorry about that. It is the only way I can respond to your numerous points and have it be readable. Unlike the poster above (Timetrip) whom I can't decipher al all. :shrug:

I'd just make the point again that the money is allocated. It is going to be spent. My instincts are that we should be cutting spending. But since it is going to be spent I would rather see it go to a project that is the most practical. Tampa-WDW-Orlando is that project. It will grow Florida's economy and do so for decades.

 

[TimeTrip]

Sorry about that. It is the only way I can respond to your numerous points and have it be readable. Unlike the poster above (Timetrip) whom I can't decipher al all

Are you saying you can't decipher my posts because I use the quoting system the way most people do quoting.. including lazy boy, who you found a way to respond to. Your quoting system in red makes it much to difficult to respond to, because we can't just hit the "quote" button to get your text.. we have to manually copy over all that red text.

Or perhaps you said that because my posts are unintelligible to you?

 

[SeaCastle]

Maybe my family isn't in the target demographic, but the HSR really doesn't appeal to us. Flying in to MCO then taking a complimentary motor coach service directly to our hotel seems a lot more convenient than flying in, picking up our luggage, purchasing train tickets, aligning our flight schedule with the train schedule, taking the train to an out-of-the-way location at the south of property, then transferring to another mode of transportation that takes me to my hotel.

Again, maybe the HSR isn't meant to appeal to tourists. But it seems like an unneeded hassle to get tourists to take the HSR to WDW, when the Magical Express does it for free and more conveniently.

 

[biggy H]

Maybe my family isn't in the target demographic, but the HSR really doesn't appeal to us. Flying in to MCO then taking a complimentary motor coach service directly to our hotel seems a lot more convenient than flying in, picking up our luggage, purchasing train tickets, aligning our flight schedule with the train schedule, taking the train to an out-of-the-way location at the south of property, then transferring to another mode of transportation that takes me to my hotel.

Again, maybe the HSR isn't meant to appeal to tourists. But it seems like an unneeded hassle to get tourists to take the HSR to WDW, when the Magical Express does it for free and more conveniently.

I think the plan will be that if staying on property the buses will only run from the station on WDW and not from MCO to WDW. Also there is no guarantee that ME will stay free anyhow.

 

[jem3772]

First poster here so please be kind :animwink:

Forgive me if I am wrong but isnt the biggest point of this whole thing job creation? Yes its nice to have a high speed rail, ( or not depending I guess on how you look at it), but it would probably employ thousands of people and thatis what the country needs badly at this point.

 

[SeaCastle]

I think the plan will be that if staying on property the buses will only run from the station on WDW and not from MCO to WDW. Also there is no guarantee that ME will stay free anyhow.

If this is indeed the plan, we'll just take a taxi to our hotel. Train tickets aren't exactly cheap (much less HSR ones), and it doesn't make sense in my mind why it's easier to take the train from MCO to WDW, and then transfer again to more buses that will take me to my hotel, when I could get a taxi or van or bus that takes me directly to my hotel for cheaper.

 

[lazyboy97o]

No, local I-4 traffic makes up the majority of traffic on the road. So, travel between Orlando/Tampa will only become increasingly difficult as the population "boomers'. Get it? Boomers?........Sorry Hence the need for alternative transportation. Instead of a regular air route between the cities that will only further congest the airports, HSR makes much more sense in this situation.

You are still assuming that this population increase is going to cause an increased desire to travel between the two cities. Regular air travel between two points so close would not have to be handled by the major airports.

And getting to and from the airports is easier? No it won't be. And I-4 will only become further and further gridlocked. Orlando has already approved commuter lines. Tampa will follow as the HSR becomes reality and so will WDW IMO. Jobs, jobs and more jobs.

The local transit network needs to be in place before the high speed rail project opens. Leaving the early adopters stranded and poorer will only generate a negative reputation.

Which makes my point. Air travel is not practical in this scenario. Rail travel is. But first the system needs a backbone which the HSR will provide.

High speed rail is meant to compete with regional air travel. The whole point is distance so that speed cna be attained and maintained.

This makes another of my points. This system has a built in customer base so it can never be a big failure even in worse case scenarios. But it will provide quantitative data that will allow studies to determine HSR's practicality around the country. No sense in building a bunch of half-baked HSR "tracks to nowhwere" if it is not a success here. Success being determine by if it is more efficient than widening I-4, oil industry subsidies etc etc. Studies indicate however, that the HSR would break even from day 1. I absolutely believe that. Especially if the MCO-CC-WDW segment is brought on line first as Mica suggests.

What built in customer base? The Orlando tourists? That is all local and in no way a justification of high speed.

So now there will be a third.

Only your gut and pride are saying that.

Cheaper maybe but it does not allow for 2 things at the very least. HSR will be a magnet and encourage rail travel. People will travel here just to experience it. Second, and most important as I keep mentioning, it will provide a real world test of HSR in the US. That could save a huge amount of money in the long run if it proves to be a failure. Which it won't BTW. It will spur other HSR applications in situations where it can add to a more efficient economy and spur other private capital spending. Las Vegas would not exist if not for the Hoover Dam. Think of HSR in the same way. It can create private sector opportunities if done right.

If people want to experience high speed rail travel they can go to the northeast, ride the Acela Express and also get to travel between places like Washington, D.C., New York City and Boston. You are obsessed with this idea that the cool factor is going to drive people to this train and there is absolutely no evidence to back up this assertion.

Two points here. If I-4 is clogged, as happened in Houston a few years ago during an evacuation, then rail and air will be the only available means out. Evacuations take place before the weather hits in Hurricane emergencies. Shuttling trains may reduce the speed but it would still be faster than nothing. My guess is they could evacuate tens of thousands and those would be people not on I-4 facilitating even a smoother flow. If a major hurricane/tidal surge ever hit Tampa Bay it would make Katrina look mild. Also, the train may be the only way in and out after a storm too because of temporary flooding.

The Amtrak trains can also be used to evacuate people. The high speed line will also be isolated, so unlike the current lines used by Amtrak, additional trains could not be brought in to add capacity. This whole argument is predicated on your ignoring that Tampa already has passenger train service.

 

[Krack]

Um ... there were no clogged roads getting out of Houston before Hurricane Ike. Hardly anyone from Houston even evacuated during the hurricane; the number was very small. The only severe traffic caused by Hurricane Ike was people trying to get back to their homes in Galveston after the storm was over to assess damage. But Galveston isn't Houston, it's 50 miles away and that traffic was caused by the government preventing people from getting back on the island through road blocks (in other words, they intentionally caused it).

 

[SeaCastle]

Um ... there were no clogged roads getting out of Houston before Hurricane Ike. Hardly anyone from Houston even evacuated during the hurricane; the number was very small. The only severe traffic caused by Hurricane Ike was people trying to get back to their homes in Galveston after the storm was over to assess damage. But Galveston isn't Houston, it's 50 miles away and that traffic was caused by the government preventing people from getting back on the island through road blocks (in other words, they intentionally caused it).

I believe he was confusing Hurricane Ike with Hurriacne Rita, which happend three years earlier and caused this:

 

[SeaCastle]

I'd also like to point out that in an evacuation, residents are much less likely to take mass transit since when most people evacuate, they take their pets and belongings with them.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

I'd also like to point out that in an evacuation, residents are much less likely to take mass transit since when most people evacuate, they take their pets and belongings with them.

I think it's pretty clear that the hurricane defense was just tossed into this discussion to make the project sound more attractive, without a lot of thought given to its validity.

Unless the local governments make plans to use it in such a way, it's not worth discussing in anything more than a passing "wouldn't that be neat?" way.

 

[fillerup]

Again, maybe the HSR isn't meant to appeal to tourists. But it seems like an unneeded hassle to get tourists to take the HSR to WDW, when the Magical Express does it for free and more conveniently.

But clearly it is meant to appeal to tourists. Otherwise, the Orlando terminus would be city center rather than the airport.

IMO, this was done intentionally so advocates could juice the projected ridership, knowing that locals aren't going to shell out for high priced tickets.

 

[jt04]

I think it's pretty clear that the hurricane defense was just tossed into this discussion to make the project sound more attractive, without a lot of thought given to its validity.

Unless the local governments make plans to use it in such a way, it's not worth discussing in anything more than a passing "wouldn't that be neat?" way.

Since Katrina all vulnerable cities have created or revised plans. It only makes sense that they would consider every resource available. Including mass transit and school busses. Just common sense.

But clearly it is meant to appeal to tourists. Otherwise, the Orlando terminus would be city center rather than the airport.

IMO, this was done intentionally so advocates could juice the projected ridership, knowing that locals aren't going to shell out for high priced tickets.

The tourists were already there. It is not like WDW was created to eventually justify HSR. :lol:

The HSR will function as a catalyst and will encourage cities such as Orlando and Tampa to create secondary networks that deliver passengers to a destination. A comprehensive system will create ridership that includes locals, tourist needs and commuter travel. What many are willfully failing to take into account is that visitor travel has only increased over the long term and will continue to do so. As will the permanent population of Florida. The highways are stressed as are the airports. I-4 already needs to be widened in Orlando. Personally turning Orlando into another Atlanta does not seem like the best outcome for the Orlando/Tampa area . Other options need to be considered.

Because of Florida's geography there is a limit to the current transportation capacity as the population increases. Anybody who has spent time driving in central Florida knows this all to well. Geography also creates issues when, not if, evacuations must take place.

I think to really understand this issue you have to project out 10 or 15 years and imagine central Florida if it does not implement creative solutions. Baby boomers will create a population bubble and a mass transit system will also be a major plus as they age and lose driving privelidges. As I said, it is a no brainer when considering all factors. What we have is a failure of Imagination when people can't think beyond the here and now or only draw conclusions from what they have known in the past. Frustrating.:dazzle:

I have this feeling some are whispering in the new govenors ear that he should hold out for a better deal. But my guess is the Feds will snatch the deal off the table quickly if he does and all that money will go to that money pit called California. :brick:

And taxpayers will still have to bail California out of its current fiscal mess. Including Floridians.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Since Katrina all vulnerable cities have created or revised plans. It only makes sense that they would consider every resource available. Including mass transit and school busses. Just common sense.

High speed rail is a closed system. Set number of trains. Set number of cars. Little to no means of connecting to the larger rail network, so trains can only go to Orlando and trains cannot be added to increase capacity.

The HSR will function as a catalyst and will encourage cities such as Orlando and Tampa to create secondary networks that deliver passengers to a destination.

Doing things backwards will only engender hatred towards both systems. Nobody is going to ride today and deal with the headache and cost of getting around Orlando or Tampa because they hope that it will be better in a decade.

 

[jt04]

High speed rail is a closed system. Set number of trains. Set number of cars. Little to no means of connecting to the larger rail network, so trains can only go to Orlando and trains cannot be added to increase capacity.


Not exactly. Switches can be added so the trains can "shuttle" between Lakeland and a contingecy area built in the eastern part of Tampa in anticipation of such a disaster. There will be at least 4 trains by my estimate that can be used in such a way. The idea that one train would shuttle between Tampa Airport and MCO in such a scenario is somewhat silly. Think outside the box.

Doing things backwards will only engender hatred towards both systems. Nobody is going to ride today and deal with the headache and cost of getting around Orlando or Tampa because they hope that it will be better in a decade.

This is a point I could not disagree more on. Mass transits systems have been added in many places but they are usually 'failures'. The reason is they rarely coneect to a larger system. The Miami monorail is a perfect example. By creating a backbone they will be creating demand in communities to connect to that capacity. What you are saying has been tried many times and causes people to be repulsed by the idea of mass transit. It is why it is so difficult to get any new solutions implemented.
The money is allocated for HSR and will be spent on HSR. There is no going back as it is written in law and the money designated. The only question is will it be spent to provide a complete usable and testable system or will it go to a half-baked 'rails to nowhere' in the boondocks of California solely for the purpose of extorting money out of Washington for a never ending project. It is in the taxpayers interest to build the Florida project. No doubt in my mind.

EDIT: I just found out that the Metrorail will soon connect with Miami Airport. Since flying from Miami to MCO makes practical sense, I believe this largely eliminates the need for HSR from Miami to Orlando. So I think this is more in keeping with what you are advocating. And in this situation building out the network in Dade County is a much wiser use of resources than HSR.

Every situation is different and the best, most efficient systems should be implemented IMO.