Orlando High Speed Rail IS DEFINITE

[jt04]

Using TGV as a base, I found it would be cheaper and faster for a family of four to just take a taxi.

This idea of a shuttle between the airport and Disney is just silly. High speed rail is about distance. How is Disney going to coordinate all of these families being stuck at the airport for hours waiting for the next train?

THIS is a great question!

I think they will run an "out and back" shuttle in the times the HSR is not running. They have said the HSR will run hourly so let's use the top of the hour as an example. The HSR will leave MCO at the top of the hour and bypass WDW and go directly to Lakeland and then Tampa Airport. After the Tampa HSR leaves MCO a shuttle could arrive at the quarter hour and depart for the Convention Center/WDW. Another shuttle at the half hour and another at the 45 minute mark. This way the longest someone would have to wait is less than 30 minutes for a shuttle.

As for the operating expenses many are concerned about, there is enough of a captive audience (tourists arriving for Uni and WDW) that the operating expenses should be covered. I really think this will be like popular Amtrak lines and will make a profit. If so, the state could consider selling or leasing the line. If it is a big loser, at least we won't start wasting money trying to build a nationwide network of HSR.

I also believe there are places where HSR can work. This system, and it is a complete system, can prove that and if it does private industry can then get involved.

 

[fillerup]

I'd like to post a hpothetical:

You and your spouse bring your two darling children for a week at Disney World. But you've decided that a day at Busch Gardens would be just the ticket.

You can:

A)Purchase four round trip train tickets @ $58 a pop, $232 total(this is the lowest projected fare by the FDOT, and you probably wouldn't be eligible for it). Then you arrive Tampa and jump the local commuter rail for the park. Oops, no, Tampa just voted that down. Instead, it's a $40 round trip cab ride. Total - $272.

Or,

B)Rent a car for $40 and plan on putting another $25 in gas in it. Total - $65.

You spent an extra $207 but you shaved 42 minutes off your travel time each way. Or did you? Going by train, you waited at your resort and again at the station coming home for 15 to 30 minutes for your Disney bus. But you did get to ride in a really neat choo choo train.

Everybody picked the train. Right? Show of hands?

 

[lazyboy97o]

If Orlando area tourists are expected to subsidize this endevour it would be cheaper to build a local bus rapid transit or commuter (tourist) rail system.

 

[TimeTrip]

THIS is a great question!

I think they will run an "out and back" shuttle in the times the HSR is not running. They have said the HSR will run hourly so let's use the top of the hour as an example. The HSR will leave MCO at the top of the hour and bypass WDW and go directly to Lakeland and then Tampa Airport. After the Tampa HSR leaves MCO a shuttle could arrive at the quarter hour and depart for the Convention Center/WDW. Another shuttle at the half hour and another at the 45 minute mark. This way the longest someone would have to wait is less than 30 minutes for a shuttle.

Are there many rail systems out there that operate a "shuttle" system while something else is running further out? You've also suddenly a need for many more trains, and possible side spurs. That certainly hasn't been talked about in anything I've read.

As for the operating expenses many are concerned about, there is enough of a captive audience (tourists arriving for Uni and WDW) that the operating expenses should be covered. I really think this will be like popular Amtrak lines and will make a profit.

Maybe for expenses b/w MCO and WDW, but even that is in doubt. What popular Amtrak line makes a profit? I don't think there are any, but I certainly could be wrong.

EDIT: You're probably referring to the Northeast corridor. I'm trying to dig up information as to how profitable that corridor actually is. I've heard of information saying its profitable, and also that it isn't. Honestly, the northeast corridor would be the perfect candidate for viability given the density of population and connections from stations. Unfortunately, they weren't allowed to get any funding. The govt also probably realized that there aren't many places in the country that fit that profile ;-)

 

[JungleTrekFan]

:waveersonally im am all for HSR. I dont understand why people think its some fictious space age technology thats not worth the investment. If most European and Asian nations have working high speed rails, that they continue to expand every year, then they obviosly think that there country is much better with it then without.

Orlando to Tampa is a perfect area to test HSR. Sure many locals will never use it because of its high ticket price and that driving is cheaper. I cant argue that, but locals is not the demographic of this project. Orlando and tampa bay are one of the most visited tourist destinations in the US. Whether its for Disney, Universal, Sea World, or Busch Gardens and all the cruise lines that sail out of Tampa.

To a tourist a high speed train is definitely worth it. They dont have to worry about possibly damaging a rental, or the high taxi fare and akwardness of being in a car with a stranger for over 30 min. And what parent would deny there little kid with the once in a lifetime experience of going 160mph on a train, when they cant even deny them getting a princess/pirate makeover.

To me it just makes sense. 90% or all of it is already paid for. Tourists will glady pick up the operations cost.

 

[TimeTrip]

Sure many locals will never use it because of its high ticket price and that driving is cheaper. I cant argue that, but locals is not the demographic of this project. Orlando and tampa bay are one of the most visited tourist destinations in the US. Whether its for Disney, Universal, Sea World, or Busch Gardens and all the cruise lines that sail out of Tampa.

The point that some of us have been making is that that simply isn't enough to keep the system from just being a huge money drain.

To a tourist a high speed train is definitely worth it. They dont have to worry about possibly damaging a rental, or the high taxi fare and akwardness of being in a car with a stranger for over 30 min. And what parent would deny there little kid with the once in a lifetime experience of going 160mph on a train, when they cant even deny them getting a princess/pirate makeover.

When it winds up being SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper/convenient to rent a car than to use the train, you can be certain the parents will deny their little kid that experience.

To me it just makes sense. 90% or all of it is already paid for. Tourists will glady pick up the operations cost.

Would they if the cost for a one way ticket was north of $100?

 

[joe80x86]

I'd like to post a hpothetical:

You and your spouse bring your two darling children for a week at Disney World. But you've decided that a day at Busch Gardens would be just the ticket.

You can:

A)Purchase four round trip train tickets @ $58 a pop, $232 total(this is the lowest projected fare by the FDOT, and you probably wouldn't be eligible for it). Then you arrive Tampa and jump the local commuter rail for the park. Oops, no, Tampa just voted that down. Instead, it's a $40 round trip cab ride. Total - $272.

Or,

B)Rent a car for $40 and plan on putting another $25 in gas in it. Total - $65.

You spent an extra $207 but you shaved 42 minutes off your travel time each way. Or did you? Going by train, you waited at your resort and again at the station coming home for 15 to 30 minutes for your Disney bus. But you did get to ride in a really neat choo choo train.

Everybody picked the train. Right? Show of hands?

Or for $10 per person you could just hop a shuttle bus from Seaworld or a few other places around Orlando.

 

[lazyboy97o]

To a tourist a high speed train is definitely worth it. They dont have to worry about possibly damaging a rental, or the high taxi fare and akwardness of being in a car with a stranger for over 30 min. And what parent would deny there little kid with the once in a lifetime experience of going 160mph on a train, when they cant even deny them getting a princess/pirate makeover.

Who is seriously afraid of damaging a rental?

Tourists most accustomed to traveling by train live in dense urban areas and would also likely be accustomed to taxis, so they would take the cheaper taxi.

A family going to Busch Gardens would also have to transfer to a bus or taxi after arriving at the end of the high speed rail line. Why pay for train tickets and a bus or taxi when Mears runs a bus that goes straight to Busch gardens and only costs $10/person and will take less time.

 

[JungleTrekFan]

Who is seriously afraid of damaging a rental?

Tourists most accustomed to traveling by train live in dense urban areas and would also likely be accustomed to taxis, so they would take the cheaper taxi.

A family going to Busch Gardens would also have to transfer to a bus or taxi after arriving at the end of the high speed rail line. Why pay for train tickets and a bus or taxi when Mears runs a bus that goes straight to Busch gardens and only costs $10/person and will take less time.

Why are there short range intercity flights? With costs over 100 per person a bus, train, or taxi could all suffice for short range flights but people for some reason preffer to go through the long security lines, waiting in an airport and paying a lot of money. These are the kind of poeple that will choose HSR instead of taking a connecting flight from Orlando to Miami or Ft. Lauderdal to Tampa. To them it will be much better then being on a bus or in a taxi and better then taking a 5-6 hour connecting flight to get to Tampa.

 

[TimeTrip]

Why are there short range intercity flights? With costs over 100 per person a bus, train, or taxi could all suffice for short range flights but people for some reason preffer to go through the long security lines, waiting in an airport and paying a lot of money. These are the kind of poeple that will choose HSR instead of taking a connecting flight from Orlando to Miami or Ft. Lauderdal to Tampa. To them it will be much better then being on a bus or in a taxi and better then taking a 5-6 hour connecting flight to get to Tampa.

But from what I remember.. people have tried to start an Orlando/Tampa flight schedule... but it wasnt popular at all.... so that doesn't bode well for HSR between those two.

 

[lazyboy97o]

That argument makes sense, except there are no regularly scheduled flights between Orlando and Tampa.

 

[biggy H]

The problem is that to most Americans the car is king and anything else won't work at all.

What needs to happen is to make the car less attractive for the sort of trips that HSR will replace.

Here in Europe, city centre to city centre is quicker by train than going by plane taking into the that time to get to the airport, checking in waiting to board etc and then at the other end getting from the airport to city centre, so add to a 45 minute flight and extra 4 hours. Remember the 168mph speed will be the starting level, chinese trains run at 220mph and faster.

 

[JungleTrekFan]

That argument makes sense, except there are no regularly scheduled flights between Orlando and Tampa.

(Yeah i was hoping no one knew that.)

But passengers aren't the only thing that high speed trains can transport. In France they use there high speed rail lines for trasporting people and freight. Specificly, there mail service uses their own high speed trains to transport mail. Thus another means for paying the infastructure costs. That could be more profitable then the high speed transport of people.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The biggest problem with this route is that it does not save time over using the highways. You would either waste time unloading and loading at the terminals or have to build new shipping centers at the terminals. Either way, nothing is saved over just sending a truck.

 

[jt04]

The biggest problem with this route is that it does not save time over using the highways. You would either waste time unloading and loading at the terminals or have to build new shipping centers at the terminals. Either way, nothing is saved over just sending a truck.

The Orlando-Tampa area will continue to grow and will probably even have a population explosion as baby boomers retire. WDW is likely to be a continually growing enterprise too. You have to project out 10 or 15 years to really understand the need for HSR.

And all it will take is one of I-4's major traffic jams and people seeing the train pass them at 150 MPH to drive people to the ticket counter.

I'll just throw in one more scenario. Imagine a major hurricane that suddenly strengthens in a short ammount of time and turns towards the greater Tampa area. This happened in Ft Myers not that long ago. It happened in Houston too when everyone tried to leave at once and all the interstates were gridlocked. An HSR shuttling between Tampa and Lakeland could evacuate a lot of folks and save lives.

Another point. People are saying it should not happen because Tampa voters voted down a tax increase for local connectors. But I have no doubt that if the HSR is definitely happening that the taxpayers would change their minds. Many people would travel to the area just to experience HSR travel. And Tampa would want to capture those tourist dollars. Tampa is already spending a lot of money to become more tourist friendly and a local transport network would enhance the experience greatly.

I also believe HSR would spur Disney to build a more comprehensive on-property transportation network.

It is 'win' everywhere you look.

 

[joe80x86]

The Orlando-Tampa area will continue to grow and will probably even have a population explosion as baby boomers retire. WDW is likely to be a continually growing enterprise too. You have to project out 10 or 15 years to really understand the need for HSR.

And all it will take is one of I-4's major traffic jams and people seeing the train pass them at 150 MPH to drive people to the ticket counter.

I'll just throw in one more scenario. Imagine a major hurricane that suddenly strengthens in a short ammount of time and turns towards the greater Tampa area. This happened in Ft Myers not that long ago. It happened in Houston too when everyone tried to leave at once and all the interstates were gridlocked. An HSR shuttling between Tampa and Lakeland could evacuate a lot of folks and save lives.

Another point. People are saying it should not happen because Tampa voters voted down a tax increase for local connectors. But I have no doubt that if the HSR is definitely happening that the taxpayers would change their minds. Many people would travel to the area just to experience HSR travel. And Tampa would want to capture those tourist dollars. Tampa is already spending a lot of money to become more tourist friendly and a local transport network would enhance the experience greatly.

I also believe HSR would spur Disney to build a more comprehensive on-property transportation network.

It is 'win' everywhere you look.

Boy do you have your head in the clouds. When you come back down to earth let me know and I will point out the flaws in your arguments.

 

[JimJam]

This is POINTLESS

 

[lazyboy97o]

The Orlando-Tampa area will continue to grow and will probably even have a population explosion as baby boomers retire. WDW is likely to be a continually growing enterprise too. You have to project out 10 or 15 years to really understand the need for HSR.

Why are all of these retired persons commuting between Orlando and Tampa?

And all it will take is one of I-4's major traffic jams and people seeing the train pass them at 150 MPH to drive people to the ticket counter.

These traffic jams have yet to create a demand for regular air travel. People here in Atlanta sit in traffic on GA 400 and watch MARTA trains zip past them twice a day. The reason people still bother to deal with the traffic is because it is still a pain to travel between the rail line and their final destination.

I'll just throw in one more scenario. Imagine a major hurricane that suddenly strengthens in a short ammount of time and turns towards the greater Tampa area. This happened in Ft Myers not that long ago. It happened in Houston too when everyone tried to leave at once and all the interstates were gridlocked. An HSR shuttling between Tampa and Lakeland could evacuate a lot of folks and save lives.

What advantage do the heigh speed trains offer, besides their capacity, over the Amtrak trains that are already there? Weather and closer running times are going to reduce the speed at which the trains will be able to travel.


Just a reminder, the Silver Star from Orlando to Tampa costs $10 for a coach ticket and takes 2:03 to complete. Why are people not flocking to this existing option? Why not expand this service? Dedicated right of way, that could easily accommodate future high speed rail, would allow these existing trains to travel at a faster speed without having to coordinate as much with the freight companies.

 

[Texas84]

'Short range intercity flights' also lose money and are heavily subsidized by the US government. We're going broke folks. We have to give up wasting money on some of our cool toys.

 

[AEfx]

Oh, and I put "no tax burden" in quotes because it still is a tax burden because anything funded from government money came from taxpayers somewhere! What a load of crock these gov't funded projects are!

Ugh, I know, people will so fall for anything.

They did something similar in my town. We have budget problems that have led to crappy roads, lack of snow plowing, and the sale of historic buildings for nothing - yet we voted to spend $2+ million on some stupid new sidewalks downtown because supposedly having nicer sidewalks is going to keep people from going to the mall and Wal-mart/Target to shop and instead buy things at overprices boutiques. They said, "No additional tax payer money!" which meant - hey, we took out a loan for the 2mill - let your kids pay for it, you don't have to...

On the rail topic, though, it's a big "meh" to me (nothing I would need/use), but hopefully some people will enjoy it. I never for the life of me get why rail is so friggin' expensive - makes no sense to me at all. It's a track. You lay it down. It's not coated in gold, LOL. (I know, I know, over simplifying, but it still never makes any sense to me why it would cost a billion dollars to run some track).