Orlando High Speed Rail IS DEFINITE

[jt04]

Do you still think this is the case? $342 mill has suddenly changed your tune? That is only 12% of the project cost of the whole project. What is it about getting a further 12% of the fixed cost that suddenly makes it seem that its not a waste of money? The long-term costs are still there, and the gov't isn't stepping up to fund that at all.

Did you read the article? The $342 is on top of the other money the Feds have allocated. The ammount Florida tax payers would have to come up with is way below what it would cost to widen I-4 again. Plus it will increase tourism and pay for itself in tax receipts and other benefits. It is a no brainer at this point IMO.

Look, the money has been allocated to the point that about 90% is paid for. If Florida refuses the money it WILL go to another state. It will be spent no matter what. So, the govenor is just saying no to a 2 billion dollar infusion if he says no. There are other states who will be glad to take the cash. So it is going to be spent no matter what.

This project is almost turn key. It is a perfect test of HSR's viability. It is much better to have a working system that can be analyzed than several half built projects that turn into money pits. The Florida project may turn into a mistake but it won't be a major mistake. It has a permanent built in customer base and will be a proving ground for the technology.

There is no downside at this point for Florida tax payers.

 

[TimeTrip]

Did you read the article? The $342 is on top of the other money the Feds have allocated.

I get that, the point is that it's bumped up the federal contribution to the project from about 76% to 90%. Now suddenly its a no brainer, whereas before it was a no brainer to NOT do it before? There's nothing wrong with that opinion, it just depends on where that threshold is for a particular person . For me, the long term costs of running it might still outweigh that bump in contribution.

Look, the money has been allocated to the point that about 90% is paid for. If Florida refuses the money it WILL go to another state. It will be spent no matter what. So, the govenor is just saying no to a 2 billion dollar infusion if he says no. There are other states who will be glad to take the cash. So it is going to be spent no matter what.

Other states have turned down large sums of money, for about the same reasons that Florida should.

Florida's gain came at the expenses of Ohio and Wisconsin, which had been given a total of $1.2 billion to upgrade rail lines for passenger trains in those states. But Govs.-elect Scott Walker of Wisconsin and John Kasich of Ohio said they did not want the money because they think the trains would not attract enough riders and wouldcost the states too much to operate.

Imagine if all the states turned down the money and the government used it to get the budget back under control? ;-)

This project is almost turn key. It is a perfect test of HSR's viability. It is much better to have a working system that can be analyzed than several half built projects that turn into money pits. The Florida project may turn into a mistake but it won't be a major mistake. It has a permanent built in customer base and will be a proving ground for the technology.

Perhaps its a great proving ground for technology, but I'm still not sold on it testing the viability. To me viability means creating a system that MANY MANY people will take advantage of so that it's not a complete money pit. To me, Tampa to Orlando still doesn't make any sense, and I think in the past you've agreed to *some* of that point. It's not about creating a system and HOPING people will come.

don't need to take the survey to know I would never take the train. I prefer the complete freedom and flexibility a car offers. The train would help clear the roads which would be a big plus in my book. Anyway, it does not matter, HSR won't be happening in Florida so it is a moot point.

Does anyone know if there is some clause in the grant of the federal money that requires payback of the funds if the system doesn't operate for a given length of time? I think Tri-Rail had some issue like that.

There is no downside at this point for Florida tax payers.

That depends on the long-term cost of operations

 

[devoy1701]

Yeah but with Rick Scott going into office he might cancel the project. He opposes the idea of it.

Care to explain this post that you conveniently left out of your thread bump?

Rick Scott opposed because of the burdon on Tax Payers as JT said. this came to the ballet again in the past midterms (in Hillsborough we were also voting on commuter rail at a 1% sales tax increase but we voted it down). Just like you can't/shouldn't raise taxes on anyone during a recession, you shouldn't put the burden of paying for a new project on tax payers during the recession (actually I think private groups should have funded anyway). But now there is "no tax burden" for Florida Residents since this project can now be "fully" funded by the federal government thanks to 2 other states dropping their plans for HSR and the gov't reallocating the money. All news outlets down here are reporting that we are moving ahead with the plans now that this is fully funded.

Oh, and I put "no tax burden" in quotes because it still is a tax burden because anything funded from government money came from taxpayers somewhere! What a load of crock these gov't funded projects are!

EDIT: I also put "fully" funded in quotes because yesterday the news was saying we were fully funded...not sure why the article is saying 90% or which one is actually correct.

Do you still think this is the case? $342 mill has suddenly changed your tune? That is only 12% of the project cost of the whole project. What is it about getting a further 12% of the fixed cost that suddenly makes it seem that its not a waste of money? The long-term costs are still there, and the gov't isn't stepping up to fund that at all.

see above. It still is a waste of money IMO because you can get there quicker by car still because of the stops along the HSR route, and it's cheaper to drive! but it will be more convenient for out of state travelers who now can fly into TIA for instance and maybe save some money and take the train over to WDW. What rail system operates in the black anyway!?

 

[WDW Monorail]

I hope it flops and goes and stays in the RED like Tri-Rail did in Ft. Lauderdale. The ridership is so low it has been in the red since day one. I know that I won't be using it to goto Tampa. I'd prefer to use my van and get to where I want to go and not have to rely on other transportation when I get there.

Virtually every public railroad in this country is in the red, loosing money big time. But somehow, the government finds ways to justify nosensical projects which benefit only a handful of people.

 

[Kamikaze]

what about the shuttles to Port Canaveral?

Unless Disney works something out where those guests would travel on the train for free, I can't see them using it.

 

[wm49rs]

"Eight teams of companies have indicated they would compete to design, build and run the 84-mile system, which would run largely along the median of Interstate 4. Construction could begin in late 2012, with the first trains rolling in2015."

Still a lot of decisions left to be made before this project gets underway. If it does, Florida owes a debt to the governors of Wisconsin and Ohio. No one saw this coming had they not decided to refuse the federal monies....

 

[TimeTrip]

Just some info about Tri-Rail for comparison.. from http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/112910-sunrail-who-wins

Falconer points to Miami's TriRail commuter train as an example of tax dollar waste.

He argues it's done nothing to relieve congestion in Southeast Florida.

It had an operating loss of $62 million last year.

Tri-Rail $62 million a year? Suddenly that extra $342 mill doesn't seem like so much. Even if the gov't funded everything, the state could be on the hook for tens of millions of dollars a year, and where do you think that money will come from?

 

[devoy1701]

Just some info about Tri-Rail for comparison.. from http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/112910-sunrail-who-wins


Tri-Rail $62 million a year? Suddenly that extra $342 mill doesn't seem like so much. Even if the gov't funded everything, the state could be on the hook for tens of millions of dollars a year, and where do you think that money will come from?

well that depends. I don't konw anything about Tri-Rail...is it government-owned/subsidized, or privately owned? If private, it will continue to operate at a loss until it can no longer do so and the firms that lended the company money deceide to pull funded...no burden to the gov't or taxpayers...

If it's a gov't owned agency (DOT), that's another story...I don't know how rail companies actually work.

 

[Master Yoda]

Rick Scott opposed because of the burdon on Tax Payers as JT said. this came to the ballet again in the past midterms (in Hillsborough we were also voting on commuter rail at a 1% sales tax increase but we voted it down). Just like you can't/shouldn't raise taxes on anyone during a recession, you shouldn't put the burden of paying for a new project on tax payers during the recession (actually I think private groups should have funded anyway). But now there is "no tax burden" for Florida Residents since this project can now be "fully" funded by the federal government thanks to 2 other states dropping their plans for HSR and the gov't reallocating the money. All news outlets down here are reporting that we are moving ahead with the plans now that this is fully funded.

We are free from paying for the construction but what worries me is who will be paying for the operating costs. I fear all we end up with is a free money pit as I do not know of any system similar to the one purposed that operates in the black. From what I keep reading the majority of computer rail projects hemorrhage money at an alarming rate.

EDIT:To me this project has "free puppy!" written all over it.

 

[devoy1701]

We are free from paying for the construction but what worries me is who will be paying for the operating costs. I fear all we end up with is a free money pit as I do not know of any system similar to the one purposed that operates in the black. From what I keep reading the majority of computer rail projects hemorrhage money at an alarming rate.

EDIT:To me this project has "free puppy!" written all over it.

good edit analogy!

 

[toolsnspools]

RIP DME. :dazzle:

I wonder what the trip will cost 5 of us from MCO to WDW. I bet I can get a better deal renting a car.

 

[devoy1701]

RIP DME. :dazzle:

I wonder what the trip will cost 5 of us from MCO to WDW. I bet I can get a better deal renting a car.

You probably won't see the actual cost. Disney will work it into the price of their vacation packages and just give you the transfer slips.

 

[joel_maxwell]

good edit analogy!

He has an arsenal of them.

You probably won't see the actual cost. Disney will work it into the price of their vacation packages and just give you the transfer slips.

Just like everything else. Sometimes though, I dont want to know how much Im spending on certain things like that. Just wrap it up in 1 cost and let me go about my vacation. :lol:

 

[Monty]

EDIT:To me this project has "free puppy!" written all over it.

**Likes puppies** :lookaroun

[/WWE reference] :animwink:

 

[devoy1701]

He has an arsenal of them.

Just like everything else. Sometimes though, I dont want to know how much Im spending on certain things like that. Just wrap it up in 1 cost and let me go about my vacation. :lol:

I hear ya!!! and actually that was my thinking when we were having our first home built this year. We had narrowed it down to KB Home and DR Horton for our first home...we ruled out KB because although their base price was cheaper, you picked everything as an "option" from light switches to windowsills to doorbells and every individual item had a price attached to it. I don't actually want to know how much my doorbell is costing me, I just want it to be there when the house is done! DR had packages that included certain levels of options and didn't have individual prices on everything...and the doorbell was "included" in the base price for the house...for the love of the Lord almightly... :brick:

 

[Master Yoda]

He has an arsenal of them.

What can I say? I love analogies. They can take the main points of an incredibly complex subject and reduce it so that everyone gets the point.

 

[devoy1701]

What can I say? I love analogies. They can take the main points of an incredibly complex subject and reduce it so that everyone gets the point.

you lost me....


:lookaroun




:lol:

 

[joel_maxwell]

I hear ya!!! and actually that was my thinking when we were having our first home built this year. We had narrowed it down to KB Home and DR Horton for our first home...we ruled out KB because although their base price was cheaper, you picked everything as an "option" from light switches to windowsills to doorbells and every individual item had a price attached to it. I don't actually want to know how much my doorbell is costing me, I just want it to be there when the house is done! DR had packages that included certain levels of options and didn't have individual prices on everything...and the doorbell was "included" in the base price for the house...for the love of the Lord almightly... :brick:

Signature homes has it down to the 2x4 that they will need to build a home. It is an amazing science.

What can I say? I love analogies. They can take the main points of an incredibly complex subject and reduce it so that everyone gets the point.

I love them too and you are right. I find myself saying sometimes, "Can you put that explanation into a creative analogy?" I just like them.

 

[lazyboy97o]

RIP DME. :dazzle:

I wonder what the trip will cost 5 of us from MCO to WDW. I bet I can get a better deal renting a car.

Using TGV as a base, I found it would be cheaper and faster for a family of four to just take a taxi.

This idea of a shuttle between the airport and Disney is just silly. High speed rail is about distance. How is Disney going to coordinate all of these families being stuck at the airport for hours waiting for the next train?

 

[DisneyJoe]

No, initially this will only replace the Disney shuttle to MCO.

I see this as a supplement to DME, not a complete replacement.