Orlando High Speed Rail IS DEFINITE

[TP2000]

cali's site is nice, but an expensive rail line that parallels a major fault line while crossing a couple others is not the best use of money.

Don't tell that to the Japanese. :lol:

They've been doing exactly that thing since 1964 in a country with greater risk for earthquakes than California, and with several major earthquakes since '64 and no passenger injuries or major damage on the line, even on the routes designed and built with older 1960's-70's earthquake mitigation technology.

Taiwan also has a newer 185MPH high speed rail system that was engineered for that earthquake prone island nation. Half the rail system was stopped this past May after a strong 6.4, but service resumed a few hours later after the tracks checked out just fine. Larger 7.0+ earthquakes have hit Taiwan along their rail line over the last decade, and their modern engineering absorbed it as designed and service was restarted within hours.

The Italians also have plenty of experience in operating modern high speed rail with earthquakes and active volcanoes in mind. Of the six active volcanoes in California, three of them are relatively close to the HSR route alignment.

Believe it or not, Californians are aware there are seismic faults here. The California High Speed Rail Authority has designed and engineered that fact into the plans, which is why they've already spent just over 1 Billion on engineering and planning. (They obviously chucked a few of those bucks to the website designer too.) That's also why California's HSR system is projected to cost so much; lots of extra money needs to be spent to meet or exceed California's strict seismic building codes.

The Los Angeles region alone already operates a very extensive network of passenger rail service called Metrolink that has 512 miles of track with hundreds of locos and cars carrying 40,000 riders per day. It has operated for 20+ years through some very major earthquakes, with no major damage or passenger injury. San Francisco and San Diego also have passenger rail networks designed to deal with earthquakes, including the 40 year old, 4 mile long Transbay Tube sitting 135 feet under the icy waters of San Francisco Bay. It has survived major earthquakes just fine.

The threat of earthquakes has been engineered in the 21st century into practically a non-issue. :wave:

.

 

[CDavid]

This gets us back to the whole argument of using very expensive HSR train equipment designed to go at very fast speeds (180+ MPH) over long distances (500+ Miles) as a local tourist-zone shuttle instead. If the purpose is to transport people the 18 miles from the airport to the convention center and on to Lake Buena Vista, then a light-rail system would be far cheaper and provide more frequent (and arguably faster) service than HSR.

There's a newer 22 mile passenger rail line in north San Diego County called Sprinter that uses diesel trains that can go 70+ MPH. It was built for about 20 Million dollars per mile, through very hilly and populated terrain with lots of bridges and protected vehicle crossings involved with the 15 stations. Per mile costs would likely be a bit cheaper in pancake-flat, earthquake-free Orlando with only 3 or 4 stations.

Sprinter Light Rail - North San Diego County

Modern light rail trains are sleek and attractive, as seen above, and interior seating could easily be fitted in a more spacious and plusher tourist setup rather than the higher-density commuter setup.

Since the market for carrying people between Tampa and Orlando quickly and at a profit is dubious at best (no such market currently exists, in fact), it would seem a passenger train from MCO to OCC and WDW should be a 20 Mile tourist system at up to 70 MPH for a fraction of the cost of HSR equipment and engineering. The analogy used earlier seems apt again; that building a 3 Billion dollar HSR system to take people from the airport to Disney World is like building a 3 Billion dollar space shuttle to take housewives to their local supermarket.

The problem is that this isn't so much about the rational, speedy and profitable moving of people on rail between various points, as that would clearly point to using light-rail like Sprinter to move folks from the airport to WDW. The entire HSR thing has now become a political hot potato that is more about ego and tax subsidy and political futures and fortunes than it is about moving folks from Point A to Point B.

But it's going to be fun to watch in 2011!

Well said. Constructing a high-speed, dedicated right-of-way line for an 18 mile route is probably the most expensive way possible to make this happen. It's far more expensive to build, maintain, and operate than light-rail, but especially with the intermediate stops, there is little or no speed advantage enjoyed by the faster train.

Indeed, if light-rail networks otherwise ever come to Tampa and Orlando (which really needs such service), the cities are situated such that some manner of modern interurban (think Electroliner) would seem to at least be something to consider. But there exists this mistaken notion that so-called "high-speed rail" is a wise investment in the nations infrastructure, while a penny spent on incrementally improved conventional passenger rail (which is usually what the country really needs) is somehow a hopeless boondoggle.

The same studies which support the Orlando to Tampa HSR construction base this on the assumption that the extension to Miami is part of the equation. But that plan is almost certainly dead, unless Florida wants to pay the total cost (and that's not going to happen either). So the most we may end up with is one isolated, short section of HSR which will never measure up to its supposed potential - and thus will be pegged a failure by critics - simply because its is just one isolated, short section of HSR.

 

[biggy H]

It seems most Americans don't care about any other form of transport apart from planes and cars. You might all change your minds when gas is $20+ a gallon and more and more electricty is generated by cheap green renewables.

The route planned might or might not be financially self-supporting but it deserves to be tried, even if it eventually just runs light rail services at a future date.
With a bit of vision it could be a good system and eventually link up to a wider system.

Just found this article from the Miami Herald saying why its cheaper to go by train than car from Tampa to Orlando. Its aimed at the high number of single occupacancy cars that use the I4 on this route.

 

[TP2000]

It seems most Americans don't care about any other form of transport apart from planes and cars. You might all change your minds when gas is $20+ a gallon...

If gas goes to 20 bucks a gallon at any time in the next 25 years, I think the building of a fast train from Tampa to Orlando is going to be the very least of our worries. 20 dollar a gallon gas means the end of our culture as we know it, for most of the developed world, not just America.

And to think I just filled up the tank tonight and was grumbling at the $3.35 a gallon I paid. :lol:

 

[biggy H]

If gas goes to 20 bucks a gallon at any time in the next 25 years, I think the building of a fast train from Tampa to Orlando is going to be the very least of our worries. 20 dollar a gallon gas means the end of our culture as we know it, for most of the developed world, not just America.

And to think I just filled up the tank tonight and was grumbling at the $3.35 a gallon I paid. :lol:

Well its nearer $10 a (UK)gallon here in the UK.... ($7.60 ish a US Gallon) so its not in the realms of fantasy....

 

[jt04]

This gets us back to the whole argument of using very expensive HSR train equipment designed to go at very fast speeds (180+ MPH) over long distances (500+ Miles) as a local tourist-zone shuttle instead. If the purpose is to transport people the 18 miles from the airport to the convention center and on to Lake Buena Vista, then a light-rail system would be far cheaper and provide more frequent (and arguably faster) service than HSR.

There's a newer 22 mile passenger rail line in north San Diego County called Sprinter that uses diesel trains that can go 70+ MPH. It was built for about 20 Million dollars per mile, through very hilly and populated terrain with lots of bridges and protected vehicle crossings involved with the 15 stations. Per mile costs would likely be a bit cheaper in pancake-flat, earthquake-free Orlando with only 3 or 4 stations.

Sprinter Light Rail - North San Diego County

Modern light rail trains are sleek and attractive, as seen above, and interior seating could easily be fitted in a more spacious and plusher tourist setup rather than the higher-density commuter setup.

Since the market for carrying people between Tampa and Orlando quickly and at a profit is dubious at best (no such market currently exists, in fact), it would seem a passenger train from MCO to OCC and WDW should be a 20 Mile tourist system at up to 70 MPH for a fraction of the cost of HSR equipment and engineering. The analogy used earlier seems apt again; that building a 3 Billion dollar HSR system to take people from the airport to Disney World is like building a 3 Billion dollar space shuttle to take housewives to their local supermarket.

The problem is that this isn't so much about the rational, speedy and profitable moving of people on rail between various points, as that would clearly point to using light-rail like Sprinter to move folks from the airport to WDW. The entire HSR thing has now become a political hot potato that is more about ego and tax subsidy and political futures and fortunes than it is about moving folks from Point A to Point B.

But it's going to be fun to watch in 2011!

Agreed that it will be fun. But we have already covered this ground. The MCO-CC-WDW stops are a small part of a much bigger picture. And there is nothing that says thru trains from MCO to Tampa won't be scheduled. But this point is missing the forest for the trees.

The most likely location of the HSR station is going to be along 528 and a transit stop for a transportation link at uni would be between the two garages. That is where the distance of 4.4 miles from.

And with a train loop, it will be atleast 10 miles with a station at seaworld likely if uni is picking up the cost. I doubt that there would be any other stops because I-4 is the better route to use.

Not sure I agree. Uni has a plot of land that is difficult to develop because of its use by the previous owners. It is perfect for a transportation hub which could act as a cap on the land. So that would move it even closer to the CC. Putting it between the parking structures makes little sense to me. :shrug: An out and back light rail would only require a single track with as many trains running as necessary. One at a time of course. :lol:

Exactly, without this line being connected to the rest of the HSR on the east coast and midwest, is it really going to be shuttling that many people from tamp to orlando and miami or vice versa? Florida's HSR needs to be connected to the country, it doesn't seem like those that planned it thought about that.

The sprinter would be a way to connect uni to the cc, but they still would need to pick up the tab for it, orlando isn't going to finance a train line that only serves uni.

Every journey begins with a single step or some such. :lookaroun

It is expected that the Miami/Orlando segment could be very profitable. That is why so many big corporate players want in on this and are offering to cover costs. Because by doing so they get the inside track on that segment. No pun intended.

I get the feeling you think HSR will happen everywhere in the manner the interstate system did. That is not reasonable and it will never happen that way. It will only happen where private dollars are available and that will only happen where the private sector sees a viable opportunity and the government is willing to provide right of ways etc.

It was actually more about my criticism of the hilariously amateurish website the Florida HSR group had up during 2009 and well into 2010. The old Florida HSR website was like something a 10th grader did on the family room computer in 2002. They finally paid someone to redo it with 2010 technology, and they have a small amount of pie-in-the-sky renderings of vague station concepts up there now. They also got rid of the rad 1980's synthesizer music playing in the background, which is what makes me really mad.

The overused and rather meaningless political phrase "shovel-ready" makes me chuckle, but since the Tampa-Orlando route is on land flatter than one of my slightly lumpy Sunday morning pancakes, and is running down the middle of a very wide freeway, it should be the engineering equivalent of building a small vacation home for European HSR designers. Heck, most of the planned Florida station areas are mostly wide swaths of flat barren land with no known community impacts. It could certainly get going tomorrow if they wanted to.

The Florida HSR website still is rather weak on details and specifics, reflecting a much shorter history of serious planning compared to the California version, but at least it's more polished looking now.

Florida High Speed Rail Website http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/

California High Speed Rail Authority Website http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/

Typical California. So worried about image and show biz and the outward apperance rather than the substance of anything and everything. :lol: Florida did not just happen to find a highway with a wide median that HSR could utilize. It was planned that way a long time ago.

Are there even any SeaWorld branded hotels? Who would take high speed rail to SeaWorld? Much cheaper and easier for a family in Tampa to just drive. Tourists at Universal or Disney would be better served by a system intended for such short distances, but of course jt04 will just retort with his hypothetical high speed shuttle.

It is more than retort. As these systems evolve this is the sorts of things they can do. My guess is that paralell tracks would eventually be needed after the Miami link is added to handle capacity.

Well said. Constructing a high-speed, dedicated right-of-way line for an 18 mile route is probably the most expensive way possible to make this happen. It's far more expensive to build, maintain, and operate than light-rail, but especially with the intermediate stops, there is little or no speed advantage enjoyed by the faster train.

Indeed, if light-rail networks otherwise ever come to Tampa and Orlando (which really needs such service), the cities are situated such that some manner of modern interurban (think Electroliner) would seem to at least be something to consider. But there exists this mistaken notion that so-called "high-speed rail" is a wise investment in the nations infrastructure, while a penny spent on incrementally improved conventional passenger rail (which is usually what the country really needs) is somehow a hopeless boondoggle.

The same studies which support the Orlando to Tampa HSR construction base this on the assumption that the extension to Miami is part of the equation. But that plan is almost certainly dead, unless Florida wants to pay the total cost (and that's not going to happen either). So the most we may end up with is one isolated, short section of HSR which will never measure up to its supposed potential - and thus will be pegged a failure by critics - simply because its is just one isolated, short section of HSR.

It most certainly is not dead. I have read that the private sector is very interested in the Miami link due to its potential profitability. Remember, what is being proposed is mearly a baby step in a much bigger picture. There are too many major players (and more everyday) that see the opportunity to prove HSR's practicality in Florida. They are experts in the field and know what they are talking about. Unlike me. :lol:

Anyway, they would not be interested in this system if it was doomed to fail. Do I really need to say that. I mean it just seems obvious. And it won't fail. Not only that it will create enormous 'spin-off' economic activity. Mark my words.

 

[flavious27]

It seems most Americans don't care about any other form of transport apart from planes and cars. You might all change your minds when gas is $20+ a gallon and more and more electricty is generated by cheap green renewables.

The route planned might or might not be financially self-supporting but it deserves to be tried, even if it eventually just runs light rail services at a future date.
With a bit of vision it could be a good system and eventually link up to a wider system.

Just found this article from the Miami Herald saying why its cheaper to go by train than car from Tampa to Orlando. Its aimed at the high number of single occupacancy cars that use the I4 on this route.

I grew up in South Jersey and rail is an important way to travel for us and we aren't a group that is resistant to it.

When most of America was built around highways and not a rail line and a town, it is expensive to add rail and also make it convenient to use.

Unless you have a daily work force that is traveling from tampa to orlando, this line will not get the use to justify the cost. It could be argued that this is a long distance line that will be used by vacationers, but are there that many people from tampa that vacation in orlando? Orlando and its metro area aren't that much smaller than either tampa or its metro area.

The tampa line could be used by tourists, but it needs to be connected to the rest of the hsr in the east coast when those projects are completed. If you have people that drove down to florida, the cost of a 170 mile round trip isn't going to phase them. For those that flew, a rental car for the day is going to be about the same than the cost of the tickets. The only group that would travel would be the ones that already have from their home city.

 

[flavious27]

Not sure I agree. Uni has a plot of land that is difficult to develop because of its use by the previous owners. It is perfect for a transportation hub which could act as a cap on the land. So that would move it even closer to the CC. Putting it between the parking structures makes little sense to me. :shrug: An out and back light rail would only require a single track with as many trains running as necessary. One at a time of course. :lol:



Every journey begins with a single step or some such. :lookaroun

It is expected that the Miami/Orlando segment could be very profitable. That is why so many big corporate players want in on this and are offering to cover costs. Because by doing so they get the inside track on that segment. No pun intended.

I get the feeling you think HSR will happen everywhere in the manner the interstate system did. That is not reasonable and it will never happen that way. It will only happen where private dollars are available and that will only happen where the private sector sees a viable opportunity and the government is willing to provide right of ways etc.

Where else would the station go besides at the park entrance? No one is going to take a train for 10 (wdw) - 50 minutes (tampa), take a train for another 10 minutes, get off and wait for a tram or bus; they are not taking a train ride to yankee stadium from Princeton, and that trip only requires 1 stop, not 2.

I feel that HSR will happen along already important and well traveled rail and highways routes.

 

[jt04]

Where else would the station go besides at the park entrance? No one is going to take a train for 10 (wdw) - 50 minutes (tampa), take a train for another 10 minutes, get off and wait for a tram or bus; they are not taking a train ride to yankee stadium from Princeton, and that trip only requires 1 stop, not 2.

I feel that HSR will happen along already important and well traveled rail and highways routes.

Look at what people are willing to endure to get to the MK. :lol:


Anyway, I thought of the solution!

The PRT system at Heathrow would be perfect for Universal. If you look at the aerial shots of I-4 from overhead there is an obvious right-of-way that has been engineered that runs from the proposed HSR station to Uni. One of the big advantages PRT has is that it can be built at ground level with what is essentially a narrow concrete path with rails. Because the vehicles are so light the concrete needs only minor reinvorcement. This greatly reduces cost. The beauty of using the system in this application is that the resorts and parks at Universal are relatively close together and the PRT could easily serve each area on a relatively modest loop. Such a system could also allow Universal and SW guests to easily move between each resort. So both resorts would have an interest in cost sharing to install the system.

Resolved!

Next problem please.

 

[flavious27]

Look at what people are willing to endure to get to the MK. :lol:


Anyway, I thought of the solution!

The PRT system at Heathrow would be perfect for Universal. If you look at the aerial shots of I-4 from overhead there is an obvious right-of-way that has been engineered that runs from the proposed HSR station to Uni. One of the big advantages PRT has is that it can be built at ground level with what is essentially a narrow concrete path with rails. Because the vehicles are so light the concrete needs only minor reinvorcement. This greatly reduces cost. The beauty of using the system in this application is that the resorts and parks at Universal are relatively close together and the PRT could easily serve each area on a relatively modest loop. Such a system could also allow Universal and SW guests to easily move between each resort. So both resorts would have an interest in cost sharing to install the system.

Resolved!

Next problem please.

ULTra could be a solution, as long as uni can find the money for it.

 

[fillerup]

Simply for the sake of tossing some mud in the water:

From the Fla High Speed Rail Commission website titled HSR Connections -

"FDOT is also planning a stop on International Drive at the Orange County Convention Center (OCCC)"

From the Fla High Speed Rail Commission website titled Fast Facts -

"The International Drive stop is located at the southern end of the I-Ride trolley route and is served by Lynx."

The Rail Commission actually refers to this alternate station (which would be at Orlando Premium Outlets) as the OCC station, even though it's almost seven miles south of the Convention Center.

At worst, this means that the OCC station is not yet a settled matter. Clearly, if the rail is built, it absolutely should stop at the OCC.

At best, this is website sloppiness. The fact that the other location was even considered (and remains on the website) is clear evidence that Florida hasn't assembled the sharpest knives in the drawer to run its HSR efforts.

 

[flavious27]

Simply for the sake of tossing some mud in the water:

From the Fla High Speed Rail Commission website titled HSR Connections -

"FDOT is also planning a stop on International Drive at the Orange County Convention Center (OCCC)"

From the Fla High Speed Rail Commission website titled Fast Facts -

"The International Drive stop is located at the southern end of the I-Ride trolley route and is served by Lynx."

The Rail Commission actually refers to this alternate station (which would be at Orlando Premium Outlets) as the OCC station, even though it's almost seven miles south of the Convention Center.

At worst, this means that the OCC station is not yet a settled matter. Clearly, if the rail is built, it absolutely should stop at the OCC.

At best, this is website sloppiness. The fact that the other location was even considered (and remains on the website) is clear evidence that Florida hasn't assembled the sharpest knives in the drawer to run its HSR efforts.

Yeah, the occ station is about right where I placed it.

 

[jt04]

Simply for the sake of tossing some mud in the water:

From the Fla High Speed Rail Commission website titled HSR Connections -

"FDOT is also planning a stop on International Drive at the Orange County Convention Center (OCCC)"

From the Fla High Speed Rail Commission website titled Fast Facts -

"The International Drive stop is located at the southern end of the I-Ride trolley route and is served by Lynx."

The Rail Commission actually refers to this alternate station (which would be at Orlando Premium Outlets) as the OCC station, even though it's almost seven miles south of the Convention Center.

At worst, this means that the OCC station is not yet a settled matter. Clearly, if the rail is built, it absolutely should stop at the OCC.

At best, this is website sloppiness. The fact that the other location was even considered (and remains on the website) is clear evidence that Florida hasn't assembled the sharpest knives in the drawer to run its HSR efforts.

Yeah, the occ station is about right where I placed it.

Agreed. The HSR station will be located between Sea World and the CC on the plot next to I-4. I believe the facility to the south is for Lynx and other transportation but I am certain the plan is for Lynx to connect to HSR at either the CC or the airport. I think they are still working out those details. The HSR corridor is set with only the placement of the stations in Tampa and Lakeland still to be be decided. Light rail is a work in progress logistically speaking and much more fluid. Anyone know more? :veryconfu

 

[flavious27]

Agreed. The HSR station will be located between Sea World and the CC on the plot next to I-4. I believe the facility to the south is for Lynx and other transportation but I am certain the plan is for Lynx to connect to HSR at either the CC or the airport. I think they are still working out those details. The HSR corridor is set with only the placement of the stations in Tampa and Lakeland still to be be decided. Light rail is a work in progress logistically speaking and much more fluid. Anyone know more? :veryconfu

No clue on any light rail, it is going to be in uni's hands unless someone leaks some designs from universal blvd.

 

[jt04]

No clue on any light rail, it is going to be in uni's hands unless someone leaks some designs from universal blvd.

I was refering to light rail on the macro level. Any involvement by Universal would be on the margins.

Per this article...

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/...billion-dollar-high-speed-rail-florida-caveat

...it is likely Florida has taken a final position on HSR. I think it is the right position. The private sector has a once in a lifetime opportunity here. If a single player isn't willing to step up and take the risk, I wouldn't think it would be too difficult to put together a consortium of high tech visionary companies. It can't loose ultimately. I'd be happy to invest in HSR for Florida and be in on the ground floor.

 

[JEANYLASER]

Orlando High Speed Rail is great thing for the Walt Disney World? And What year this high speed rail finished contruction?

 

[jt04]

orlando high speed rail is great thing for the walt disney world? And what year this high speed rail finished contruction?

2014

 

[JEANYLASER]

that long why so long to complete the high speed rail?

 

[jt04]

that long why so long to complete the high speed rail?

That is less time than it will take to build the FLE. :lol:

HSR is very complex. It takes a lot of engineering.

 

[JEANYLASER]

thanks for the info!