Orlando High Speed Rail IS DEFINITE

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flavious27

Well-Known Member
do you mean the autotrain?

The autotrain only has so many stops, but I mean the regular amtrak train that goes down the EC, the silver star and silver meteor.

The line that these trains take comes within a little over a mile from the southern portion of celebration. A Station can be placed at the corner of world drive and celebration blvd. There isn't any plans to link the fhs rail to any amtrak stations.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
The autotrain only has so many stops, but I mean the regular amtrak train that goes down the EC, the silver star and silver meteor.

The line that these trains take comes within a little over a mile from the southern portion of celebration. A Station can be placed at the corner of world drive and celebration blvd. There isn't any plans to link the fhs rail to any amtrak stations.

Of course not. There were also no plans to link the HSR to the SunRail commuter line. :rolleyes:

Florida HSR was conceived and planned as a one-off, stand-alone operation run by the state of Florida to whisk people from Orlando to Tampa, with a stop at the convention center and Disney World along the way. None of the initial planning ever took into consideration linking it with other ground transportation.
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
Of course not. There were also no plans to link the HSR to the SunRail commuter line. :rolleyes:

Florida HSR was conceived and planned as a one-off, stand-alone operation run by the state of Florida to whisk people from Orlando to Tampa, with a stop at the convention center and Disney World along the way. None of the initial planning ever took into consideration linking it with other ground transportation.

Which doesn't spell alot of success.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Of course not. There were also no plans to link the HSR to the SunRail commuter line. :rolleyes:

Florida HSR was conceived and planned as a one-off, stand-alone operation run by the state of Florida to whisk people from Orlando to Tampa, with a stop at the convention center and Disney World along the way. None of the initial planning ever took into consideration linking it with other ground transportation.

That is not quite true as there has already been work on a plan to connect Orlando to Miami. See the new Miami Intermodal Center which is being built with HSR in mind and is almost complete.

As for the study that showed the Florida Project's projections were a couple billion low, I found out that group is based in California! Hmmmm. :lookaroun

And the Japanese Foreign Minister visited Washington DC this week and he made a special request to meet the new Govenor of Florida to discuss helping build HSR in Florida. It was his only trip outside the nation's capital. Reports are the meeting went well.:)
 

trr1

Well-Known Member
That is not quite true as there has already been work on a plan to connect Orlando to Miami. See the new Miami Intermodal Center which is being built with HSR in mind and is almost complete.

As for the study that showed the Florida Project's projections were a couple billion low, I found out that group is based in California! Hmmmm. :lookaroun

And the Japanese Foreign Minister visited Washington DC this week and he made a special request to meet the new Govenor of Florida to discuss helping build HSR in Florida. It was his only trip outside the nation's capital. Reports are the meeting went well.:)
selling america one piece at a time:lol:

Thanks for the info! does anyone know the website for this info!
try here jeany http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
That is not quite true as there has already been work on a plan to connect Orlando to Miami. See the new Miami Intermodal Center which is being built with HSR in mind and is almost complete.

As for the study that showed the Florida Project's projections were a couple billion low, I found out that group is based in California! Hmmmm. :lookaroun

And the Japanese Foreign Minister visited Washington DC this week and he made a special request to meet the new Govenor of Florida to discuss helping build HSR in Florida. It was his only trip outside the nation's capital. Reports are the meeting went well.:)

Why won't there be a connection from Jacksonville to Orlando to just connect this line to the others planned in the nation? Have this line connect to one that runs down the length of 95 in Florida. Hand off any stations on the silver lines to tri-rail and make it amtrak. the tri rails will handle local and the hsr can handle tourists. If there was a hsr station in disney that had a connection to east coast, it would be successful.
 

fillerup

Well-Known Member
That is not quite true as there has already been work on a plan to connect Orlando to Miami. See the new Miami Intermodal Center which is being built with HSR in mind and is almost complete.

Without the first dollar in sight for that portion of HSR.

As for the study that showed the Florida Project's projections were a couple billion low, I found out that group is based in California! Hmmmm. :lookaroun

I wouldn't read too much into their being from California. They've been as critical, if not more so, of the California HSR. You might read something into their being a Libertarian think tank. As such, they're naturally skeptical of most large scale public works projects.

However, their study didn't say anything that hasn't already been said by the Congressional Research Service as to 45% cost overruns and greatly inflated ridership projections.

And the Japanese Foreign Minister visited Washington DC this week and he made a special request to meet the new Govenor of Florida to discuss helping build HSR in Florida. It was his only trip outside the nation's capital. Reports are the meeting went well.:)

And Gov. Scott said nothing after the meeting about rail.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Without the first dollar in sight for that portion of HSR.



I wouldn't read too much into their being from California. They've been as critical, if not more so, of the California HSR. You might read something into their being a Libertarian think tank. As such, they're naturally skeptical of most large scale public works projects.

However, their study didn't say anything that hasn't already been said by the Congressional Research Service as to 45% cost overruns and greatly inflated ridership projections.



And Gov. Scott said nothing after the meeting about rail.


Per the link below that "Think Tank" did not calculate for WDW and CC (Uni, Sea World, Int Drive) ridership. That is beyond laughable, that is almost fraud. Is anyone not a political spin doctor anymore? Is everything an opportunity for marketing whatever 'brand' you advocate? Just being rhetorical.

Anyway, sounds like if the private sector puts their money where their mouth is, Florida's HSR will definitely happen. As it should be I think.

Hmmm, pragmatic politicians. Now that is change! :)

LINK....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41053308
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Per the link below that "Think Tank" did not calculate for WDW and CC (Uni, Sea World, Int Drive) ridership. That is beyond laughable, that is almost fraud. Is anyone not a political spin doctor anymore? Is everything an opportunity for marketing whatever 'brand' you advocate? Just being rhetorical.
Because the audience that would support the venture on those numbers is pretty much limited to you. That short leg needs to be jammed full of people paying (directly or indirectly) much more than it would cost them to rent a car to take a cab, so that the now empty train to Tampa has some money going towards that part of the journey. You can talk all you want about your shuttle idea, but that is not in the plans.
 

fillerup

Well-Known Member
Per the link below that "Think Tank" did not calculate for WDW and CC (Uni, Sea World, Int Drive) ridership. That is beyond laughable, that is almost fraud. Is anyone not a political spin doctor anymore? Is everything an opportunity for marketing whatever 'brand' you advocate? Just being rhetorical.
Anyway, sounds like if the private sector puts their money where their mouth is, Florida's HSR will definitely happen. As it should be I think.

Hmmm, pragmatic politicians. Now that is change! :)

LINK....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41053308

From the link provided for the always objective MSNBC:

"Florida's high-speed rail project has been complicated recently by political posturing and a flurry of reports pro and con, one released Tuesday by a national group of planners that ranked Florida's potential high-speed ridership lower than regions with bigger cities.

The report does not account for Orlando's tourism and convention traffic in its formula, but acknowledges that Disney World and the Orlando Convention Center could act as "significant generators."

Surely jt04, the article has been changed since you linked to it. After all, there's no mention of a "Think Tank", but only reference to a shadowy (unnamed) "national group of planners". Do they have an identity? Does their report have a title or a link?

I'm confident we can agree the esteemed reporter isn't talking about the Reason Foundation. Their report was released prior to the referenced Tuesday and a reading of their report clearly shows that they considered local ridership.

I'm eager to know who this new group is on the scene and to read their report. I agree, if they didn't consider local ridership, that is quite sloppy and does border on fraudulent.

I'll check back frequently for the link to these "planners" and their study.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
From the link provided for the always objective MSNBC:

"Florida's high-speed rail project has been complicated recently by political posturing and a flurry of reports pro and con, one released Tuesday by a national group of planners that ranked Florida's potential high-speed ridership lower than regions with bigger cities.

The report does not account for Orlando's tourism and convention traffic in its formula, but acknowledges that Disney World and the Orlando Convention Center could act as "significant generators."

Surely jt04, the article has been changed since you linked to it. After all, there's no mention of a "Think Tank", but only reference to a shadowy (unnamed) "national group of planners". Do they have an identity? Does their report have a title or a link?

I'm confident we can agree the esteemed reporter isn't talking about the Reason Foundation. Their report was released prior to the referenced Tuesday and a reading of their report clearly shows that they considered local ridership.

I'm eager to know who this new group is on the scene and to read their report. I agree, if they didn't consider local ridership, that is quite sloppy and does border on fraudulent.

I'll check back frequently for the link to these "planners" and their study.

Good point and this may be about the report but I can't confirm it....

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20028400-54.html

The point remains and I would bet that neither group is accounting for MCO-CC-WDW ridership.

The State of Florida is awaiting other reports.
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
Per the link below that "Think Tank" did not calculate for WDW and CC (Uni, Sea World, Int Drive) ridership. That is beyond laughable, that is almost fraud. Is anyone not a political spin doctor anymore? Is everything an opportunity for marketing whatever 'brand' you advocate? Just being rhetorical.

Anyway, sounds like if the private sector puts their money where their mouth is, Florida's HSR will definitely happen. As it should be I think.

Hmmm, pragmatic politicians. Now that is change! :)

LINK....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41053308

uni is 5 miles away from the convention center, I doubt that many people are going to ride a train for 8 miles then hop off and take a lynx bus for another 5 miles.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
uni is 5 miles away from the convention center, I doubt that many people are going to ride a train for 8 miles then hop off and take a lynx bus for another 5 miles.

Why are you assuming they would have to take a Lynx bus? :shrug:
 

mgf

Well-Known Member
I promised myself I wouldn't jump down the rabbit hole but....

Per the link below that "Think Tank" did not calculate for WDW and CC (Uni, Sea World, Int Drive) ridership. That is beyond laughable, that is almost fraud.

I am sorry, but I must chime in on this particular statement. As an actual student of public policy (with a BS in Policy Analysis -yes, I know there is an ironic joke there- and a MPA in Public Management and Public Finance come May), this is a completely ridiculous accusation. It is not fraud to consciously and publicly exclude a particular variable from your research as this report apparently did (based on the news article). Fraud in research would be manipulating data, falsifying a methodology, etc. Had the authors purposely led people to assume they did or did not include a variable then you might have a case.

There are perfectly valid reasons for not including tourists in an analysis. For one, these riders come from outside the local accounting domain thus pay none of the state taxes marked for HSR. (Conversely, with federal subsidies, people from outside the accounting domain are contributing tax dollars for no receivable service.) Including tourists does little to justify that a stable population base will support ridership numbers. Comparing Chicago to Orlando, for example, will show that Chicago has a larger permanent ridership base that can provide stable numbers and subsequently user fee revenue. Tourists are also much more cyclical and tend to be more elastic to changes in the economy than resident populations. While migration will occur when a local economy dips, it will not match the decline in tourism (especially if the national economy also declined). Similarly the rebound in the local economy is unlikely to have a direct effect on non-local tourism (except in a case of total urban renewal like Detroit may undergo). I could go on.

Certainly simply justifying the exclusion does not make a study "sound" or "good," but it is not fraud. Every study has bias - methodological and/or natural. The challenge for policy makers and citizens is to rationally evaluate the findings of the study. There may be portions of the analysis that seem incorrect or inadequate. The very same issue you claim is fraud (not including tourism) could be equally easily overstated to justify a project. To some extent, research operates within a bubble that is bust the second it touches the real world. That does not mean, however, that it is not useful or should be cast aside. I applaud the Fed and Florida for evaluating multiple proposals.
 

fillerup

Well-Known Member
mgf - An interesting post all around. Thank you.

But the salient point here is that an intellectually lazy reporter made a "statement of fact" - without citation, attribution, or reference. We don't in fact even know what study she was referring to.

The study I've cited, from the Reason Foundation, does include the tourist traffic in their study, as does the Florida High Speed Rail Commission. The tourist ridership is the only way they can even come close to making their numbers work.

Reason Foundation
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Welcome to Wonderland

:D
I am sorry, but I must chime in on this particular statement. As an actual student of public policy (with a BS in Policy Analysis -yes, I know there is an ironic joke there- and a MPA in Public Management and Public Finance come May), this is a completely ridiculous accusation. It is not fraud to consciously and publicly exclude a particular variable from your research as this report apparently did (based on the news article). Fraud in research would be manipulating data, falsifying a methodology, etc. Had the authors purposely led people to assume they did or did not include a variable then you might have a case.

There are perfectly valid reasons for not including tourists in an analysis. For one, these riders come from outside the local accounting domain thus pay none of the state taxes marked for HSR. (Conversely, with federal subsidies, people from outside the accounting domain are contributing tax dollars for no receivable service.) Including tourists does little to justify that a stable population base will support ridership numbers. Comparing Chicago to Orlando, for example, will show that Chicago has a larger permanent ridership base that can provide stable numbers and subsequently user fee revenue. Tourists are also much more cyclical and tend to be more elastic to changes in the economy than resident populations. While migration will occur when a local economy dips, it will not match the decline in tourism (especially if the national economy also declined). Similarly the rebound in the local economy is unlikely to have a direct effect on non-local tourism (except in a case of total urban renewal like Detroit may undergo). I could go on.

Certainly simply justifying the exclusion does not make a study "sound" or "good," but it is not fraud. Every study has bias - methodological and/or natural. The challenge for policy makers and citizens is to rationally evaluate the findings of the study. There may be portions of the analysis that seem incorrect or inadequate. The very same issue you claim is fraud (not including tourism) could be equally easily overstated to justify a project. To some extent, research operates within a bubble that is bust the second it touches the real world. That does not mean, however, that it is not useful or should be cast aside. I applaud the Fed and Florida for evaluating multiple proposals.

I wish I had more time to answer you and I plan to at another time. I can say I agree with most of what you say. However, I did not say the report was fraudulent. I said it "almost" was. An important distinction. Thanks. :wave:
 
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