Orlando High Speed Rail IS DEFINITE

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CDavid

Well-Known Member
My thinking is that if the MCO to WDW segment proves popular enough that additional parallel tracks would be built and a specialized shuttle would be added that serves the MCO-CC-WDW stops. And it would be faster than a conventional light rail system but not as fast as HSR obviously.

The time savings on so short a trip as MCO to Disney is negligible at best; You're talking about spending hundreds of millions more to build HSR over light-rail to save perhaps as little as one or two minutes per trip; Even if you build the high-speed segment, Orlando ultimately still needs a light-rail system to complement it, and that light-rail really still needs to serve the airport, Disney, and the convention center.

I can't think of a better place to start. Can anyone?

Yes. The Virginia/North Carolina S-line, the Empire Corridor in New York, and the various Midwest Regional Rail proposals all immediately come to mind. California has good plans, but the price tag is too high for a first project.

Are you for defunding Amtrak then?

Most certainly not! There's nothing I've said to remotely suggest that.

This does not sound like you see rail travel as a good alternative for longer distances.

On the contrary, long-distance passenger rail is just as important as shorter distance corridor services. Again, I'm curious how you came to that conclusion.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
The time savings on so short a trip as MCO to Disney is negligible at best; You're talking about spending hundreds of millions more to build HSR over light-rail to save perhaps as little as one or two minutes per trip; Even if you build the high-speed segment, Orlando ultimately still needs a light-rail system to complement it, and that light-rail really still needs to serve the airport, Disney, and the convention center.

In a sense I agree but having the HSR initially stop at the CC and WDW seems like a good first step in what is intended to be an evolving system. Hopefully it would be so popular they would be able to add the light rail you suggest. Some would say they should build the light rail first, but getting this segment of HSR seems like a one time deal and if they pass there won't be another chance. They money is destined for HSR and only HSR.



Yes. The Virginia/North Carolina S-line, the Empire Corridor in New York, and the various Midwest Regional Rail proposals all immediately come to mind. California has good plans, but the price tag is too high for a first project.

The Virginia/NC segment is interesting. But adding HSR in areas that are losing population seems to me to be the wrong way to go.



Most certainly not! There's nothing I've said to remotely suggest that.

I was judging by the cost and travel time as compared to air travel over long distances. Even if the US had state of the art HSR, I don't see how it makes sense over longer journeys to choose rail. :veryconfu



On the contrary, long-distance passenger rail is just as important as shorter distance corridor services. Again, I'm curious how you came to that conclusion.

See above.
 

fillerup

Well-Known Member
Virginia and NC aren't losing population. From 2000 to 2010, NC and Florida both grew at about 15% with Virginia growing by about 12%.

Not to mention that by 2006, Florida - which had been the #1 retirement destination as far back as the eye could see - had gone to #4, behind Texas, Georgia and NC. In 2000, Florida was getting 19% of all migrating seniors, but by 2007, it was down to 13%.

In 2009, North Carolina was the 8th fastest growing state, Virginia 15th, and Florida 31st.
 

stlbobby

Well-Known Member
Still trying to catch up on this thread, but right now this high-speed railroad is about as definite as the Western River Expedition or Beastly Kingdom. Last I heard, we shouldn't expect a formal announcement for a couple months, or perhaps a conditional approval which gets amended later. The Obama administration is applying a lot of pressure to make this happen, mainly so they'll have something to show for $10 billion plus of "high-speed rail investment" which often paid for studies and other reports on rail systems which will never be built, and portray the new governor as "playing politics" if he rejects the project.

Central Florida and the nation do badly need greater passenger rail development, this just isn't necessairily the right type of service for the Orlando-Tampa market (and decidedly the wrong solution for the link between Disney and MCO, which should properly be a light-rail connection). IF this project goes forward, and again that's hardly assured, expect some major changes before the first train leaves the station - and that would probably be a good thing.



No passenger railway in the world operates without a subsidy (despite false claims to the contrary), and neither would this one. Somebody would be left picking up the tab for the annual operating costs - and it won't be the feds. A dedicated high-speed system also costs a lot more to build and maintain than a higher-speed (say, 110 mph) conventional train on freight shared right-of-way, which would make more sense for the Orlando to Tampa route than the currently proposed HSR.



The "profitable" Northeast Corridor costs the taxpayers more each year than all other nationwide services combined. Where you get a "profit" is that Amtrak has reported (sometimes to tell Congress what it wants to hear...) marginal profits (say, $6) on the ticket price for premium price services like Acela first-class, not for the entire corridor operation, but of course it gets spread around the media as the "profitable" Northeast Corridor. Problem is, it costs several hundred million annually just to maintain the existing Boston-Washington railroad corridor (and those are largely expenses which wouldn't go away even if Amtrak service shut down tomorrow), so having a small percentage of your passengers on one train service on a single route paying "profitable" rates is both meaningless and misleading.



You have the right idea; Incrementally improved, 110-mph conventional trains could (apparently) come within 10-12 minutes (or less, depending on the extent of infrastructure investments) of the dedicated HSR line proposed, but at a fraction of the construction and annual operating cost. In fairness, the existing Silver Star is a New York to Miami long-distance train service which, while certainly available to Orlando-Tampa trips, isn't really aimed at that market. Most of the business is north of Orlando anyway, and there are limits as to how much short-distance business you can handle without "blocking out" the long-distance passenger who wants to go from Miami to Philadelphia.






That's effectively a myth. No train requires "government subsidies for every person that steps onboard above and beyond their ticket price". I know you've probably heard that repeated time and time again until you just take it for granted as factual, but not only is it not true, its a silly argument when you stop to think about it. The more passengers you carry, the more ticket revenue earned, not less, and hence the smaller the operating subsidy required; You do not lose money for each person you carry. It is essentially a fixed cost to run a locomotive and ten cars down the track today, so it is advantageous to carry as many paying passengers as possible. Even if that $140 figure were accurate (it isn't) it is still meaningless; Say you have one passenger travelling 60 miles on a fare of $14, and another going 1,600 miles in first-class for $1,225. It doesn't begin to make sense that the true cost to transport both passengers is the ticket price plus $140.

Incidentally, the Silver Meteor offers all amenities and is a full-service operation. It's not a cruise ship on rails, nor is it on a level with some long-distance trains of the 1950's, but neither is it supposed to be. Oldest equipment is actually from 1948.



We're probably talking about 10-12 minuntes difference between a definitive high-speed train and "conventional" trains (again, at a literal fraction of the cost) on the Orlando-Tampa segment. It all depends on the level of investment in infrastructure. With so many stops the average speed for the high-speed train is slow enough that an express conventional train could, in theory, beat the end-point running times. Again, in theory - but that well illustrates why this should be built as an incrementally improved, existing conventional railway rather than a dedicated High-speed line.

Hey stop trying to return this thread to its original intent. :ROFLOL:
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Virginia and NC aren't losing population. From 2000 to 2010, NC and Florida both grew at about 15% with Virginia growing by about 12%.

Not to mention that by 2006, Florida - which had been the #1 retirement destination as far back as the eye could see - had gone to #4, behind Texas, Georgia and NC. In 2000, Florida was getting 19% of all migrating seniors, but by 2007, it was down to 13%.

In 2009, North Carolina was the 8th fastest growing state, Virginia 15th, and Florida 31st.

That is almost entirely recession related and the continuing drop in real estate values and wave of boomer retirements (15,000 a day!) will ensure another Florida retirement surge. Ultimately I am not disagreeing though as all of the sun belt will see a huge increase and major infrastructure investment should be targeted to these areas.

Honestly, HSR between Albany and Buffalo is not a good idea financially.
 

wm49rs

A naughty bit o' crumpet
Premium Member
One can't attest that the movement of people to one or more states is based on a recession any more than they could guarantee that retirees are guaranteed to move to Florida. Especially when the majority of the 10-year population increases in those states came before the onset of the recession.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
That's effectively a myth. No train requires "government subsidies for every person that steps onboard above and beyond their ticket price". I know you've probably heard that repeated time and time again until you just take it for granted as factual, but not only is it not true, its a silly argument when you stop to think about it. The more passengers you carry, the more ticket revenue earned, not less, and hence the smaller the operating subsidy required; You do not lose money for each person you carry. It is essentially a fixed cost to run a locomotive and ten cars down the track today, so it is advantageous to carry as many paying passengers as possible. Even if that $140 figure were accurate (it isn't) it is still meaningless; Say you have one passenger travelling 60 miles on a fare of $14, and another going 1,600 miles in first-class for $1,225. It doesn't begin to make sense that the true cost to transport both passengers is the ticket price plus $140.

Incidentally, the Silver Meteor offers all amenities and is a full-service operation. It's not a cruise ship on rails, nor is it on a level with some long-distance trains of the 1950's, but neither is it supposed to be. Oldest equipment is actually from 1948.

Great info there! I'll just tackle this one quote, as it pertains to the future of high speed rail and the future of this thread. :D

It's true that even liberal politicians concede that Amtrak loses a Billion or more in taxpayer money per year. I got my information from this study by the Pew group, who came up with the figure that the average Amtrak route lost $32 dollars per passenger in 2008, where Amtrak's own figures peg it as just an $8 dollar loss per passenger in '08. The Silver Meteor's loss of $142 per passenger is middle of the pack for long distance trains, and not nearly as bad as the nearly $200 loss per passenger on the California Zephyr. The full study, with a nifty interactive national map that lets you click on any Amtrak route and see its annual operating loss can be found here... http://subsidyscope.org/transportation/amtrak/

My assertion that the Silver Meteor uses "aging equipment" and offers "minimal service and amenities" comes from my point of reference of traveling up and down the West Coast once a year or so on the fabulous Coast Starlight. That some of the cars on the Silver Service date from 1948 (likely that first big post-war batch of equipment the railroads ordered?), kind of proves my point.

As you probably know, the Coast Starlight is a true full service double-decker train using Superliner II equipment with seperate First Class Parlor Car for sleeping car passengers with afternoon wine tasting, morning brunch and espresso machines, a cocktail bar and banquettes, and downstairs movie theater. (I read they are installing WiFi in the Parlor Cars now.) The coach sections of the train have a kiddy car with video games, a coach class lounge car, full service dining car, a separate first class Metropolitan Lounge to relax in when I board the Starlight in Portland headed back to SoCal, etc.

Coast Starlight Pacific Parlor Car - Upstairs Lounge Areas
PacificParlourCar.jpg
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IMG_7605.jpg


Of course, the Starlight receives handsome subsidies from the three Pacific states it serves; Senator Wyden of Oregon has been most adept at getting the Feds to chip in a few hundred million in recent years to subsidize the Starlight and Cascades service, for example. I have no idea how much, if any, the state of Florida subsidizes the Silver Service trains. And who knows how much Florida will have to subsidize the Tampa-Orlando bullet trains each year??? But there is clearly a difference in equipment, amenities and service between the Coast Starlight and an east coast train like the Silver Meteor. They're doing something different on the West Coast, obviously.

I'll be on the Starlight the end of this month headed up to the Great Pacific Northwest (to have dinner with friends who don't own cars :eek:), in Bedroom C of the second sleeper car. I'll be happy to report on its service status afterwards. :cool:

.
 

fillerup

Well-Known Member
O'Sentinel chose to put this on their front page today.

Take it and the authors for what they're worth.

Study: Cost overruns, fewer passengers in Orlando-Tampa high speed train's future

"A high-speed train that would link Orlando to Tampa could be plagued by costly overruns and carry far fewer passengers than anticipated, according to a study released Thursday by an adviser to new Florida Gov. Rick Scott."

I thought the more interesting part of the article came toward the end:

"Rep. John Mica also has recommended building the train in stages, with the first one running only from Orlando International Airport to the Orange County Convention Center and Walt Disney World.

Poole made the same suggestion.


"That would be a good test case," Poole said, "and limit the risk to everybody."


Of course if it's built this way, it's no longer about high speed rail, but completely about serving tourists.

Sentinel article & Video

Reason Foundation - News Release

Reason Foundation - pdf of Fla Taxpayer Risk Assessment
 

TimeTrip

Well-Known Member
I thought this was interesting from the article:
And, he said, ridership studies often are "wildly optimistic," although he did not predict what the Orlando train's passenger count might be.

The state has estimated the train would carry 2.4 million passengers annually, which the study said is two-thirds of the ridership of the well-established Amtrak express service in the densely populated Northeast.

I hadn't ever thought of it in that context. When its put that way it does seem to be wildly optimistic indeed.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
I hadn't ever thought of it in that context. When its put that way it does seem to be wildly optimistic indeed.

Yeah, a bit scary isn't it?

Also consider it is offering a service for a route where no current market exists for high speed travel between those two cities.

Not a single airline in the country offers any flights from Tampa to Orlando, because the market for people wanting to move quickly between those two cities does not exist to justify even adding a very small 75-seat jet like an Embraer to an airline schedule, much less a modestly small 125-seat 737.

The American Free Market can not find any high speed travel market there to serve, but somehow government bureaucrats with a thirst for tax dollars feel there is a market for high speed travel there. That should be a huge warning flag flapping in the breeze.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Well if the real costs described in the study are at all accurate then the new Govenor won't support it and I wouldn't blame him. How can the numbers be so wildly different depending on the source?


Anyway, I will tell you what is scarey. Being a passenger on a HSR that crosses several major earthquake fault lines. :eek:

Of course the price tag may be even scarier! :eek::eek::eek:
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Anyway, I will tell you what is scarey. Being a passenger on a HSR that crosses several major earthquake fault lines. :eek:

jt, that's a concern long since engineered into irrelevance. Look to the Japanese, the first country in the world to build a bullet train in 1964, now offering the most densely packed web of high speed routes going much faster than anything proposed for the USA, and in a country that has more major earthquake activity than California.

The Chinese, who also have new high speed lines crossing very active seismic faults, have used the same safety systems to make the trackbeds and infrastructure resistant to major earthquakes. In addition to the safety equipment that brings the trains to a fast stop at the slightest seismic jiggle.

All from concepts pioneered and perfected by the Japanese decades ago. It's an argument that bears no concern.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
jt, that's a concern long since engineered into irrelevance. Look to the Japanese, the first country in the world to build a bullet train in 1964, now offering the most densely packed web of high speed routes going much faster than anything proposed for the USA, and in a country that has more major earthquake activity than California.

The Chinese, who also have new high speed lines crossing very active seismic faults, have used the same safety systems to make the trackbeds and infrastructure resistant to major earthquakes. In addition to the safety equipment that brings the trains to a fast stop at the slightest seismic jiggle.

All from concepts pioneered and perfected by the Japanese decades ago. It's an argument that bears no concern.

Aren't you concerned about the estimated price tag for just the short run from Tampa to Orlando. I have too say it stunned me and I assume the LA-SF estimate, if equally as extreme, would be astronomical. Especially with the special tech it would require as you describe.

I have moved on to the 'pocket airport' concept. I think it has much more potential. :cool:
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Aren't you concerned about the estimated price tag for just the short run from Tampa to Orlando. I have too say it stunned me and I assume the LA-SF estimate, if equally as extreme, would be astronomical. Especially with the special tech it would require as you describe.

The California HSR system has already taken into account the increased engineering and construction costs to meet and/or exceed seismic building codes that have been strict law in California since the 1930's, with updates to those seismic laws coming nearly every decade since then.

That is why the California system is pegged at 45+ Billion for full build-out, substantially more expensive per mile than the smaller Florida system. Even with the efficiencies of scale offered by the much larger California system, the cost per mile in California is much higher than Florida due to differences in topography and seismic building codes.

You don't think these types of tunnels and bridges through seismic zones like the Tehachapi Pass come cheap, do you? They will be expensive to build, and are one of the reasons why the California HSR Authority has already spent over a Billion dollars on engineering over the past decade. It's not laying tracks down the grassy middle of an existing freeway on pancake-flat land, that's for sure.

California HSR tunnel/bridge near the San Andreas Fault
HSR-train-tunnel-image.jpg


Even the stations need to be over-engineered to deal with big earthquakes in the middle of big cities. Here's a cutaway of San Francisco's Transbay Terminal under construction now. Anyone remember that little earthquake they had back in 1906 in this same city?

San Francisco Transbay Terminal
Transbay_Train_rendering.jpg


And yes, I'm very concerned about the costs of HSR and scary ridership/cost studies done outside of government offices, as any tax paying American should be.

.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
The California HSR system has already taken into account the increased engineering and construction costs to meet and/or exceed seismic building codes that have been strict law in California since the 1930's, with updates coming nearly every decade since then.

That is why the California system is pegged at 45+ Billion for full build-out, substantially more expensive per mile than the smaller Florida system. Even with the efficiencies of scale offered by the much larger California system, the cost per mile in California is much higher than Florida due to differences in topography and seismic building codes.

You don't think these types of tunnels and bridges through seismic zones like the Tehachapi Pass come cheap, do you? They will be expensive to build, and are one of the reasons why the California HSR Authority has already spent over a Billion dollars on engineering over the past decade.

California HSR tunnel/bridge near the San Andreas Fault
HSR-train-tunnel-image.jpg


And yes, I'm concerned about those costs and studies done outside of government offices, as any tax paying American should be.

I had suggested the possibility they could connect HSR in the greater LA area including Anaheim to a new hub airport in the desert that could either primarily serve as a connection for flights on the west coast and Vegas or possibly as a hub for jumbos landing from across the pacific. Wouldn't this provide faster more efficient travel than the proposed HSR while helping LAX and other airports with capacity issues?
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
I had suggested the possibility they could connect HSR in the greater LA area including Anaheim to a new hub airport in the desert that could either primarily serve as a connection for flights on the west coast and Vegas or possibly as a hub for jumbos landing from across the pacific. Wouldn't this provide faster more efficient travel than the proposed HSR while helping LAX and other airports with capacity issues?

You may be speaking of Palmdale Regional Airport out in the desert about 90 miles north of LA and near the HSR track alignment. It's been struggling to get off the ground since they built a terminal out there in the 1970's. It's actually owned by the Port of Los Angeles as part of the LAX World Airports authority.

Palmdale Regional Airport, owned by Port of Los Angeles
LAPalmdale%20Regional468x261.png


The thing is that the LA Metro area is already served by five modern airports of all sizes, from mammoth LAX to mid-sized John Wayne International here in OC (20 minutes from Disneyland) and Ontario to smaller Long Beach International and Burbank's Bob Hope International. But even the smaller airports like Long Beach still offer non-stop service to JFK or other East Coast hubs, and non-stops up and down the West Coast and to and from other California cities like the Bay Area and San Diego.

The thought of taking a train out to Palmdale to catch flights to major US hubs or trans-pacific destinations like Tokyo or Hong Kong is nothing new. It's been brewing since the early 1970's, when the train was going to be a 125MPH standard rail service and the planes dreamt of landing there were gas guzzling DC-10's with miniskirted stewardesses from the Orient. The terminal sits there today in mothballs with not a DC-10 or a Japanese stewardess in sight. The Port of LA just couldn't get airlines or passengers interested.

There's no airport capacity crisis in SoCal. LAX may have ugly terminals, but it and the four other major airports within an hour's drive of Disneyland have plenty of capacity potential for now and decades to come.

Fire up Expedia and check for flights tomorrow from any of the five LA area airports to any of the three San Francisco Bay area airports. There are literally dozens of flights per day, each way, between those two cities. That shows there's a legit and robust market for getting between the two cities quickly.

There are also about two dozen flights per day for the much shorter hop between five LA metro airports and San Diego, a route length more similar to Tampa-Orlando. (In addition to over a dozen daily Pacific Surfliner trains travelling between those two cities.)

A similar check on Expedia shows not a single scheduled airline offering a single flight between Tampa and Orlando. And just one scheduled Amtrak train per day, the Silver Meteor, offering a $10 coach fare to get from Orlando to Tampa in two hours. If I were a Florida taxpayer, I would worry about that.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
A similar check on Expedia shows not a single scheduled airline offering a single flight between Tampa and Orlando. And just one scheduled Amtrak train per day, the Silver Meteor, offering a $10 coach fare to get from Orlando to Tampa in two hours. If I were a Florida taxpayer, I would worry about that.
Which is why I think a heavy rail link would be the much wiser future investment. Connect to the big tourist areas and improve service. Then, in the future, if growth really does continue along I-4, you have something already there, instead of trying to buy up the land to try and build something later. Nothing but a huge, expensive leap in technology would enable significant reductions in the time to travel between the two cities, so go with somethign cheaper instead of expensive and flashy.
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
Which is why I think a heavy rail link would be the much wiser future investment. Connect to the big tourist areas and improve service. Then, in the future, if growth really does continue along I-4, you have something already there, instead of trying to buy up the land to try and build something later. Nothing but a huge, expensive leap in technology would enable significant reductions in the time to travel between the two cities, so go with somethign cheaper instead of expensive and flashy.

I think it would be great for an amtrak stop on disney property. We took the train down and getting between disney and the train station was horrible. Also, how much business would a tampa - orlando high speed line get vs just ending an amtrak line at disney's front door.
 

trr1

Well-Known Member
I think it would be great for an amtrak stop on disney property. We took the train down and getting between disney and the train station was horrible. Also, how much business would a tampa - orlando high speed line get vs just ending an amtrak line at disney's front door.

do you mean the autotrain?
 
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