On layoffs, very bad attendance, and Iger's legacy being one of disgrace

[lazyboy97o]

I won't take this TSL slander. But I'm biased, as my CP was in TSL, so...

Slander involves a false statement.

 

[carolina_yankee]

I personally think the quarantines are a great thing at this time. Here staycations and traveling within your own province is encouraged, were as interprovincial travel is discouraged.

Here, quarantines are discouraging travel *everywhere* because COVID is scary. Or because you thought your destination was fine when you left home but but halfway through your trip it pops on the list because spot positivity is now 10.1% or there are 10.5 cases per 100,000 rather than 9.5. Or, people are going despite the quarantines. Maybe they quarantine upon return. Maybe they don't. Those I know who have traveled, have come back just fine. If you drive, *nobody* knows where you've been unless you told people or posted on social media, so it's easy to get around.

I'm game for a trip to California in January with a few days at Disneyland (if it's open). I have no assurances that when I leave, California won't pop back on the quarantine list and I'm screwed when I get back. I'm certainly not going to spend my vacation dollars at home, so nobody gets the money if I don't go. Except Norway, for my 2022 trip as every dime saved now will be spent there when the world opens again. Which will no longer be on DCL (canceled this August) but a land-trip for greater control. Ineed, I'm not sure I"m spending any money on Disney for the next 2-3 years, and I was a DVC member until a few days ago.

 

[_caleb]

BTW, all this “themed vs. unthemed” conversation is very much on topic for this thread. I’m convinced that Bob Iger’s legacy (at least as far as the parks are concerned) is the departure from Disney’s approach to theming. Instead, he pushed for either “immersion” (one possible approach to theming) or decoration (like with IP-another possible approach to theming), but these are relative departures from Disney’s classic approach, which, to me, was typically much more imaginative.

 

[Lora Baines Bradley]

Sorry! It’s lovely and a lot of fun!

Part of the problem is that Disney’s “highs” have raised my expectations. After years growing up in the parks, I’ve come to see a lot more of what “might have been.” Which is not always fair, I admit.

Nah, you're fine. I grew to really appreciate that area of the park. I was at Woody's Lunchbox, and bussing that area at night was honestly dreamlike. Right before the park closes, with very few people in the area, and Slinky going by with the lights all lit up...ahh. I miss it so much! I don't think the theming is the best Disney has ever done (not a huge fan of the ASM-esque figurines) but I do think it is better than people give it credit for.

Slander involves a false statement.

I'm assuming you're implying that it's true that TSL is bad? I mean, I think that's entirely subjective, but I see your point (and possible humor, if I'm interpreting this correctly).

 

[_caleb]

Nah, you're fine. I grew to really appreciate that area of the park. I was at Woody's Lunchbox, and bussing that area at night was honestly dreamlike. Right before the park closes, with very few people in the area, and Slinky going by with the lights all lit up...ahh. I miss it so much! I don't think the theming is the best Disney has ever done (not a huge fan of the ASM-esque figurines) but I do think it is better than people give it credit for.


I'm assuming you're implying that it's true that TSL is bad? I mean, I think that's entirely subjective, but I see your point (and possible humor, if I'm interpreting this correctly).

Love that you have that memory. Those are the environments/moments that make me a fan.

Since you worked there, can you shed any light on this? What was supposed to be the backstory?

I never understood the giant plastic figures throughout the land. Are they posed and lifeless because Andy set them up that way and humans are around (like in the movies)? If so, why are the meet and greet characters able to interact with us? And if we’re shrink down to their size, why are they so big?

 

[lazyboy97o]

BTW, all this “themed vs. unthemed” conversation is very much on topic for this thread. I’m convinced that Bob Iger’s legacy (at least as far as the parks are concerned) is the departure from Disney’s approach to theming. Instead, he pushed for either “immersion” (one possible approach to theming) or decoration (like with IP-another possible approach to theming), but these are relative departures from Disney’s classic approach, which, to me, was typically much more imaginative.

This idea that immersion is something new and even negative just boggles my mind. It’s been a key goal from the very beginning. It’s what defined the storytelling experience of a theme park, the act of you breaking the fourth wall and entering into the experience.

I'm assuming you're implying that it's true that TSL is bad? I mean, I think that's entirely subjective, but I see your point (and possible humor, if I'm interpreting this correctly).

I would say it is objectively bad in a few aspects. It’s story is completely open ended, being one where anything and everything can fit. A strong story is tight and not everything will fit. It’s also poorly laid out, being one of Disney’s largest lands while featuring little to do, almost no spatial organization and no room for additions with the new restaurant having to be glommed on to the side. That doesn’t mean there is something wrong with liking it or having an emotional attachment to it, but that’s not necessarily relevant. It’s possibly to like something and recognize its creative weaknesses.

 

[Lora Baines Bradley]

BTW, all this “themed vs. unthemed” conversation is very much on topic for this thread. I’m convinced that Bob Iger’s legacy (at least as far as the parks are concerned) is the departure from Disney’s approach to theming. Instead, he pushed for either “immersion” (one possible approach to theming) or decoration (like with IP-another possible approach to theming), but these are relative departures from Disney’s classic approach, which, to me, was typically much more imaginative.

I agree. Currently, WDI theming seems to be ctrl+v movie scenes and locations. GE kind of ventures away from that, and I will say there is still a lot of creativity within TSL, Pandora, and GE, but they're all familiar. GE may be a new place, but it's still very Star Wars (and tbf, I think GE is extremely well-done). But it's a different kind of creativity than, say, Tower of Terror. I can't put my finger on it, but they just feel different.

Love that you have that memory. Those are the environments/moments that make me a fan.

Since you worked there, can you shed any light on this? What was supposed to be the backstory?

I'm actually not a huge TS person, either. I grew up with Monsters Inc. Can't bring myself to watch any of the TS movies though- even looking at pictures from my CP (which was this spring, so cut short) is really sad for me. I know some on this forum will call me a crybaby, but oh well. I'm in Orlando now, and I'm hoping to start working at Disney again once they're hiring again (which I know will likely be at least a year from now).

And we were never really told about the figures. That's definitely a continuity error, but I believe they placed the M&G's out of eyeshot of the figures, so you don't have a figure of Jessie behind Character Jessie.

re: the size difference, since CMs are Andy's toys, I think we're lego minifigure size, and so would the rest of the human visitors, by the transitive property of Theme Park Theming interestingly enough, we did have a theming class where we went over the basics of the films and characters and we were encouraged to come up with our own toy backstory. Also, a point of great debate at the Woody's Lunchbox breakroom table was what timeframe TSL took place in. General consensus was between 2 and 3, but the placement of TS3 characters and TS4 Bo Peep kinda put a wrench in that, lol.

This idea that immersion is something new and even negative just boggles my mind. It’s been a key goal from the very beginning. It’s what defined the storytelling experience of a theme park, the act of you breaking the fourth wall and entering into the experience.



I would say it is objectively bad in a few aspects. It’s story is completely open ended, being one where anything and everything can fit. A strong story is tight and not everything will fit. It’s also poorly laid out, being one of Disney’s largest lands while featuring little to do, almost no spatial organization and no room for additions with the new restaurant having to be glommed on to the side. That doesn’t mean there is something wrong with liking it or having an emotional attachment to it, but that’s not necessarily relevant. It’s possibly to like something and recognize its creative weaknesses.

Oh, I do definitely think the land has its weaknesses. I can't speak to the layout of the land, but I do believe another attraction would have made it feel tighter. The land itself is huge but each footprint (sans Slinky) is really small. I know at WL, there was never enough seating. And I agree on the disjointed story: it's kind of all over the place, continuity wise (see above). I think that's a weakness of the TS IP itself, though, as choosing one timeframe limits you. There's almost always something left out, whether it be Andy (if you go the later film route) or the characters from 3 or 4. Is this what you mean when you say the story is open-ended?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

This was their mistake with Slinky Dog Dash. They could have themed the track to make it look like a Hot Wheels track (or some other type of toy) and it would have fit perfectly into the TSL aesthetic. TSL still wouldn't be a very good land, but that would help a bit.

What?....”intamin triangle box” doesn’t do it for you??

 

[celluloid]

If the meta approach were intentional, then yes, I’d agree. But when there aren’t enough indications that the ”imagineers” designers meant to do that, it’s doesn’t usually resonate with guests like it should (hello, Dino-Rama).

A real Jurassic Park might indeed have a roller coaster to simulate the movement of a dinosaur. But if that coaster isn’t themed, it doesn’t seem like a very good inspiration for a themed attraction. ”The new Jurassic Coaster is highly-themed after an unthemed coaster that might exist in a real Jurassic Park” seems a bit flimsy to me.

That was the part where I said it depends on taste. The guest surveys say they wanted thrill and Dueling Dragons gone for Hagrids created a void good way to do it. It's on the same level are arguably better than Andy built a toy coaster that we are randomly the size of a toy, but smaller than the toy size we just were next door.
For example, although the ride itself will not have as many effects, the theming makes more sense then the suspension of disbelief required for the entire time you are on Hagrids with an unexplained track.
It's the old meta, but arguably done better than Dinorama, Slinky and certainly Incredicoaster.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

This idea that immersion is something new and even negative just boggles my mind. It’s been a key goal from the very beginning. It’s what defined the storytelling experience of a theme park, the act of you breaking the fourth wall and entering into the experience.



I would say it is objectively bad in a few aspects. It’s story is completely open ended, being one where anything and everything can fit. A strong story is tight and not everything will fit. It’s also poorly laid out, being one of Disney’s largest lands while featuring little to do, almost no spatial organization and no room for additions with the new restaurant having to be glommed on to the side. That doesn’t mean there is something wrong with liking it or having an emotional attachment to it, but that’s not necessarily relevant. It’s possibly to like something and recognize its creative weaknesses.

1. Nobody said theming is bad. It just doesn’t make everything else bad by default.

2. They went cheap on toy story land. Pretty much the conclusion you come too...not much else to say.

 

[Lilofan]

This was their mistake with Slinky Dog Dash. They could have themed the track to make it look like a Hot Wheels track (or some other type of toy) and it would have fit perfectly into the TSL aesthetic. TSL still wouldn't be a very good land, but that would help a bit.

Even when Tom Hanks and Keanu Reeves and fellow actors came one day to DHS to promote TSL, it did not help.

 

[_caleb]

This idea that immersion is something new and even negative just boggles my mind. It’s been a key goal from the very beginning. It’s what defined the storytelling experience of a theme park, the act of you breaking the fourth wall and entering into the experience.

I didn’t mean to say that immersion is new or negative. That’s why I put the word in quotation marks- “immersion.”

There is a difference between a place that immerses guests in an (immersive) “imaginative representation” of a place and a “faithful recreation of a place.” The prior is why the Pirates in PftC don’t seem to notice guests as we float by, or the reason the Doom Buggies don’t seem to break the theming in HM. Also, one of my favorite things about Disneyland is how the theming transitions from one area to another in seamless, if awkward (though usually imperceptible) ways.

When people talk about “immersion” these days, it seems to be all about “realism,” or “believability.” Most of the Fantasyland dark rides, or IaSM don’t qualify by this definition because of their more representational approach (which I think is no less immersive)!

To my knowledge. Disney hadn’t done much of this pre- Iger (Carsland, SWGE, TSL), and I can only remember hearing the word “immersive” thrown about by Disney in these more recent times.

 

[marni1971]

Like the location and the effects in Anaheim much more...the ride is better in Paris

Absolutely. BTM in Paris last year was near perfect with it still benefiting from its huge measure of TLC. If we will see it this year remains to be seen...

 

[_caleb]

That was the part where I said it depends on taste. The guest surveys say they wanted thrill and Dueling Dragons gone for Hagrids created a void good way to do it. It's on the same level are arguably better than Andy built a toy coaster that we are randomly the size of a toy, but smaller than the toy size we just were next door.
For example, although the ride itself will not have as many effects, the theming makes more sense then the suspension of disbelief required for the entire time you are on Hagrids.
It's the old meta, but arguably done better than Dinorama, Slinky and certainly Incredicoaster.

I have not been on Hagrid’s. Is it themed as “Hagrid built a roller coaster so guests could experience some of his Fantastical Beasts?”

Oh, nevermind. Just got the “suspension of disbelief” tradeoff part. That makes sense. Can you imagine, though, how awesome it would be if Universal had developed the same ride but without the exposed coaster track? How cool (and—in my never-having-ridden-Hagrid’s opinion—better themed) would that have been?

 

[celluloid]

I have not been on Hagrid’s. Is it themed as “Hagrid built a roller coaster so guests could experience some of his Fantastical Beasts?”

Oh, nevermind. Just got the “suspension of disbelief” tradeoff part. That makes sense. Can you imagine, though, how awesome it would be if Universal had developed the same ride but without the exposed coaster track? How cool (and—in my never-having-ridden-Hagrid’s opinion—better themed) would that have been?

The only way coasters have done that is with indoor enclosed coasters in controlled lighting to hide it as much as possible. It is taste and variety.
I would have preferred indoors because dark rides are the best, and in FL a must when the rest of big rides are outdoors, but flying through a real forest of trees is also great.

Look at Slinky example that is brought up. Imagine how much better it would have been if they just cared about the proper scale in TSL. It is so off, when you are designing "you are the size of" as an entire theme, scale should have mattered.

 

[Jrb1979]

Here, quarantines are discouraging travel *everywhere* because COVID is scary. Or because you thought your destination was fine when you left home but but halfway through your trip it pops on the list because spot positivity is now 10.1% or there are 10.5 cases per 100,000 rather than 9.5. Or, people are going despite the quarantines. Maybe they quarantine upon return. Maybe they don't. Those I know who have traveled, have come back just fine. If you drive, *nobody* knows where you've been unless you told people or posted on social media, so it's easy to get around.

I'm game for a trip to California in January with a few days at Disneyland (if it's open). I have no assurances that when I leave, California won't pop back on the quarantine list and I'm screwed when I get back. I'm certainly not going to spend my vacation dollars at home, so nobody gets the money if I don't go. Except Norway, for my 2022 trip as every dime saved now will be spent there when the world opens again. Which will no longer be on DCL (canceled this August) but a land-trip for greater control. Ineed, I'm not sure I"m spending any money on Disney for the next 2-3 years, and I was a DVC member until a few days ago.

You can travel within your state. Maybe not to Florida or California like you would like. I normally travel the US in the summer visiting multiple theme parks cause of my love of coasters. Since I couldn't do that I ended up traveling within my province and still had a great vacation. I don't understand the hate for taking a vacation within driving distance in your home state. It should be encouraged to visit your home state right now.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

You can travel within your state. Maybe not to Florida or California like you would like. I normally travel the US in the summer visiting multiple theme parks cause of my love of coasters. Since I couldn't do that I ended up traveling within my province and still had a great vacation. I don't understand the hate for taking a vacation within driving distance in your home state. It should be encouraged to visit your home state right now.

Because many US states are boring with little variety.

They don’t tend to offer the variety of Canadian Provinces or even smaller countries.

That’s why we have 50 of them...half of them suck. Or to be fair: don’t provide enough for locals to get more than a day or two or three here or there of true “vacation”

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

The only way coasters have done that is with indoor enclosed coasters in controlled lighting to hide it as much as possible. It is taste and variety.
I would have preferred indoors because dark rides are the best, and in FL a must when the rest of big rides are outdoors, but flying through a real forest of trees is also great.

Look at Slinky example that is brought up. Imagine how much better it would have been if they just cared about the proper scale in TSL. It is so off, when you are designing "you are the size of" as an entire theme, scale should have mattered.

You see the struts and track of hagrids while you’re inline...but once you’re on it, you don’t care.
So the “proper way” would have been to spend another $200,000,000 on hiding the track? To what end?

And lest we forget: elaborate theming in some cases at Disney parks has caused corner cutting on the ride systems and contributed to cancellations of other things...if they blow the budget.
Decisions are not made in a vacuum and you can get pancake effect.

Different perspective if you consider that.

Anyway...I’m so off the grid here

 

[Jrb1979]

Last comment on this coaster thing. For me the biggest trade off of hiding coaster track is the thrill that is taken away. My favorite coaster is 200 ft high with a 90 degree drop. Steel Vengeance is one of the most intense coasters in the world. For them to hide the track so I can pretend i on something else, it would have to lose a lot of the height and intensity. I don't know how true this is but it feels like most of you aren't big into high intensity coasters.

 

[UNCgolf]

Because many US states are boring with little variety.

They don’t tend to offer the variety of Canadian Provinces or even smaller countries.

That’s why we have 50 of them...half of them suck. Or to be fair: don’t provide enough for locals to get more than a day or two or three here or there of true “vacation”

This is one of the reasons I would like to move back to North Carolina at some point.