On layoffs, very bad attendance, and Iger's legacy being one of disgrace

[_caleb]

That’s kind a silly, isn’t it?

“Imagineering” is a Disney way of doing things...and it costs a fortune that can be viewed many times as bad business.

You’re holding others to a goal they never attempted to achieve.

Just sharing my opinions.

I put the word in quotation marks to try to differentiate. Disney certainly has its way of doing things, and that’s not the only way of doing things (or always even the best way!). But there are standards for placemaking, theming, and design beyond the Disney way.

I’m not sure what you think Busch Gardens is attempting to achieve (which seems to change over time), but they proudly boast about being the “World’s Most Beautiful Theme Park.”

It’s pretty obvious that Busch Gardens isn’t attempting to achieve Disney-level theming. But if we (on a Disney fan message board) are talking about the quality of theming, how can we not hold that as an example of the better end of the spectrum?

To me, it still comes down to exposed-track roller coasters. I don’t believe you can successfully theme a ride when the entire mechanism is visible as you walk up to it. You can say that we’re in a car on a roadway, on a ski lift, or an ancient Greek chariot, but if you have’t bothered to theme the track, I (the guest) am having to do all the “work” of pretending.

For some, the thrill is worth the conceit. For me, it’s not.

 

[Jrb1979]

and what number is that

To give you an idea. Here we have been around 1% positive and back up to 400 new cases and the government just pushed back groups to 10 indoors and 25 outdoors. Positivity should be under 1% and less then 200 cases.

 

[maxairmike]

Context and prior poor decisions do not justify future ones.

Obviously Disney shouldn't plop something in the middle of a land without any consideration or themeing at all, but that's also not what I'm saying. The general reaction whenever anyone sees obvious track/supports around here in any quantity at another park is like it's the end of the world, the worst thing ever to happen in the industry, and the attraction can't be considered a good attraction at all because *gasp* you can tell what kind of ride it is. It isn't any of that and it would be nice if people could actually appreciate the whole range instead of just glibly yelling about how it's horrible and objectively ruins everything when it doesn't.

To you.

Opinions and personal preferences.

No, objectively there is nothing wrong with something like Velocicoaster, Hulk, etc. Subjectively, yes, but it can still objectively be a great attraction that isn't disqualified simply because it isn't hidden in a box or surrounded in tens/hundreds of millions worth in decorations, and the park it resides in can still objectively be a great park with no asterisks or qualifiers. You don't typically do what others around here are hugely guilty of and I'm trying to get at, which is writing off attractions/parks wholesale because something isn't hidden in a box or excessively themed to their satisfaction.

 

[UNCgolf]

No, objectively there is nothing wrong with something like Velocicoaster, Hulk, etc. Subjectively, yes, but it can still objectively be a great attraction that isn't disqualified simply because it isn't hidden in a box or surrounded in tens/hundreds of millions worth in decorations, and the park it resides in can still objectively be a great park with no asterisks or qualifiers. You don't typically do what others around here are hugely guilty of and I'm trying to get at, which is writing off attractions/parks wholesale because something isn't hidden in a box or excessively themed to their satisfaction.

Everything you're saying is still subjective, though. Everything about rides, parks, etc. is subjective. Unless you're talking about hard numbers like how much a ride cost, how fast it goes, etc.

But I only think it's an issue at Disney because Disney strives to be a themed environment. If you're not trying to be a themed area, it doesn't make any difference (and doesn't affect the quality of the ride itself).

 

[UNCgolf]

To me, it still comes down to exposed-track roller coasters. I don’t believe you can successfully theme a ride when the entire mechanism is visible as you walk up to it. You can say that we’re in a car on a roadway, on a ski lift, or an ancient Greek chariot, but if you have’t bothered to theme the track, I (the guest) am having to do all the “work” of pretending.

For some, the thrill is worth the conceit. For me, it’s not.

This is how I feel as well.

That doesn't mean a ride is bad, though. It just means it doesn't work for me personally. It all depends on what someone is looking for individually -- there are obviously plenty of people who are only interested in the thrill. Other people, like you and me, are interested in the theming and feeling like you've been transported to a different place.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

To give you an idea. Here we have been around 1% positive and back up to 400 new cases and the government just pushed back groups to 10 indoors and 25 outdoors. Positivity should be under 1% and less then 200 cases.

After six months...I think I’ve gotten the hang of this:

%positive and R rate indicate overall control to me. Hospitalizations would be the next priority.

And people smart enough to WORK THE PROBLEM...which hasn’t become standard yet

 

[maxairmike]

Everything you're saying is still subjective, though. Everything about rides, parks, etc. is subjective.

Again, I'm getting at the "I wouldn't set foot in Universal/SeaWorld/BG/etc. because they have ugly exposed steel rides," or "anything with a visible support is a piece of trash and the park it's in is too because of it" mindset that is unfortunately common. It's one thing to think the ride isn't as good as it maybe could be or isn't as good as another that is more highly themed (you'd still be wrong, but you're allowed to be ), but another to be in the mindset above.

 

[Robbiem]

Issue there is Orlando is the worst of the 3 I’ve rode by a lot. So in that context it’s not a very good ride in the sunshine state for me.

interesting. How would you ratenthe various BTMs around the world?

I’ve not ridden the one at Disneyland. To me Paris has the most epic version and the island setting is really cool. I remember Tokyo being very similar to Florida but was a long time between visits so I might be wrong. Although its not Big Thunder the Gizzly minetrain in Hong Kong is a lot of fun

 

[lazyboy97o]

To me, it still comes down to exposed-track roller coasters. I don’t believe you can successfully theme a ride when the entire mechanism is visible as you walk up to it. You can say that we’re in a car on a roadway, on a ski lift, or an ancient Greek chariot, but if you have’t bothered to theme the track, I (the guest) am having to do all the “work” of pretending.

This is where I think context plays a role. I wouldn’t mind a well considered track that looks like a track in a Tomorrowland-like environment that was more aesthetically ”tech” oriented. But I would likely have more of a problem in a space like Future World where, despite also being based on futurism and technology, a coaster would intrude on the spatial arrangement of the pavilions.

 

[_caleb]

Again, I'm getting at the "I wouldn't set foot in Universal/SeaWorld/BG/etc. because they have ugly exposed steel rides," or "anything with a visible support is a piece of trash and the park it's in is too because of it" mindset that is unfortunately common. It's one thing to think the ride isn't as good as it maybe could be or isn't as good as another that is more highly themed (you'd still be wrong, but you're allowed to be ), but another to be in the mindset above.

Not sure who’s saying a roller coaster is a piece of trash- maybe you could engage with what fans here are actually saying rather than with a caricature? Seems like that might be more fun for those of us who are interested in this particular rabbit trail.

An exposed-track coaster can be a fun ride. But unless it’s themed in some way, it’s not a themed ride, is it? Dressing up the ride vehicle is an attempt at theming, but if nothing is done to theme the track, they’re only going halfway, right?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Not sure who’s saying a roller coaster is a piece of trash- maybe you could engage with what fans here are actually saying rather than with a caricature? Seems like that might be more fun for those of us who are interested in this particular rabbit trail.

An exposed-track coaster can be a fun ride. But unless it’s themed in some way, it’s not a themed ride, is it? Dressing up the ride vehicle is an attempt at theming, but if nothing is done to theme the track, they’re only going halfway, right?

Seems like trying to have it both ways from the looks of it.

Can’t Be “theme parks are always better”’and “exposed support are a deal killer” and then “but I didn’t say everything’s bad”’to gain fairness points.

If Disney is going to always win...we’re wasting our time no matter what.

 

[maxairmike]

Not sure who’s saying a roller coaster is a piece of trash- maybe you could engage with what fans here are actually saying rather than with a caricature? Seems like that might be more fun for those of us who are interested in this particular rabbit trail.

An exposed-track coaster can be a fun ride. But unless it’s themed in some way, it’s not a themed ride, is it? Dressing up the ride vehicle is an attempt at theming, but if nothing is done to theme the track, they’re only going halfway, right?

I mean, the entire first half of Velocicoaster is very highly themed, but there are some parts that are excessively expensive/difficult to hide/theme (the dive loops/immelmanns, a wise cost reduction that doesn't do any harm IMO), and some that are prohibitively/impossibly so (the 2nd half). About the only track systems that can be satisfactorily themed the way you're wanting are Vekoma/Arrow track (BTM, Everest, and I'm surprised Everest doesn't get more grief for the helixes) and the track styles of various junior coasters that are small enough to be recessed and can't be used for much more than something like Barnstormer.

Maybe if I feel like digging back through that and other Universal discussions (or when parks like Cedar Point get brought up), I'll pull in the quotes I'm thinking of, but I've definitely seen plenty of them over the years.

 

[_caleb]

Seems like trying to have it both ways from the looks of it.

Can’t Be “theme parks are always better”’and “exposed support are a deal killer” and then “but I didn’t say everything’s bad”’to gain fairness points.

If Disney is going to always win...we’re wasting our time no matter what.

But I didn’t say “theme parks are always better.“ I said ‘themed rides are themed,” and that “exposed tracks hurt/limit theming.” Not trying for fairness points- I truly didn’t say (and don’t think) unthemed or lesser-themed things are bad. Just that I prefer more the highly-themed environments.

Disney isn’t always going to “win”—they routinely swing and miss in the theming department. I’ve expressed my disappointment with things like Toy Story Land/Slinky Dog Dash, Pixar Pier, TRON, etc. (and my appreciation of Diagon Alley, and even non-theme park immersive environments) for these same reasons. But Disney has pursued the concept of themed environments more faithfully than other parks, haven’t they? It seems that way to me.

 

[UNCgolf]

This is where I think context plays a role. I wouldn’t mind a well considered track that looks like a track in a Tomorrowland-like environment that was more aesthetically ”tech” oriented. But I would likely have more of a problem in a space like Future World where, despite also being based on futurism and technology, a coaster would intrude on the spatial arrangement of the pavilions.

This was their mistake with Slinky Dog Dash. They could have themed the track to make it look like a Hot Wheels track (or some other type of toy) and it would have fit perfectly into the TSL aesthetic. TSL still wouldn't be a very good land, but that would help a bit.

 

[_caleb]

I mean, the entire first half of Velocicoaster is very highly themed, but there are some parts that are excessively expensive/difficult to hide/theme (the dive loops/immelmanns, a wise cost reduction that doesn't do any harm IMO), and some that are prohibitively/impossibly so (the 2nd half). About the only track systems that can be satisfactorily themed the way you're wanting are Vekoma/Arrow track (BTM, Everest, and I'm surprised Everest doesn't get more grief for the helixes) and the track styles of various junior coasters that are small enough to be recessed and can't be used for much more than something like Barnstormer.

Maybe if I feel like digging back through that and other Universal discussions (or when parks like Cedar Point get brought up), I'll pull in the quotes I'm thinking of, but I've definitely seen plenty of them over the years.

Right. Thrill rides would be prohibitively expensive to theme. It’s the “doesn’t do any harm” part that we’re discussing. I agree it doesn‘t do any harm to the general public’s ability to enjoy the thrill of the ride. My argument is that it does “harm” the story and theming that make rides more than just rides.

In a lot of ways, the technology for modern coasters was developed by those who didn’t care about theming- a commitment to theming is also a limitation in terms of what you can and cannot do. Once you decide theming is less important than the thrill, you can do (and they have done) some pretty amazing things.

I’m sure someone here at some time or another posted the kind of “coasters are trash” comments you’re talking about. I just meant that nobody here on this thread now is of that opinion.

 

[celluloid]

I mean, the entire first half of Velocicoaster is very highly themed, but there are some parts that are excessively expensive/difficult to hide/theme (the dive loops/immelmanns, a wise cost reduction that doesn't do any harm IMO), and some that are prohibitively/impossibly so (the 2nd half). About the only track systems that can be satisfactorily themed the way you're wanting are Vekoma/Arrow track (BTM, Everest, and I'm surprised Everest doesn't get more grief for the helixes) and the track styles of various junior coasters that are small enough to be recessed and can't be used for much more than something like Barnstormer.

Maybe if I feel like digging back through that and other Universal discussions (or when parks like Cedar Point get brought up), I'll pull in the quotes I'm thinking of, but I've definitely seen plenty of them over the years.

This is true so solutions can be theming of a different concept of conciet.
There are various types of theming.
One type of theming is called associative theming. The kind you typically see in presentational park s such as Sea World that have their thrills not immersive but inspired typically by animals that they cannot feature in their exhibits such as Mako or Manta, or myths of animal lore such as Loch Ness or Montu.

In this sense, Vellcicoaster could end up being meta. If Jurassic Park was real it would feature rides as well as Dinos. This is referenced by a line in the first film.
It is a coaster inspired by the speed of the velociraptor. There may be immersion bonuses of placemakeing. The theme park themed to zoo theme park theme may not be the best for some's taste but it makes sense.

 

[_caleb]

This was their mistake with Slinky Dog Dash. They could have themed the track to make it look like a Hot Wheels track (or some other type of toy) and it would have fit perfectly into the TSL aesthetic. TSL still wouldn't be a very good land, but that would help a bit.

I agree. Seems like a missed opportunity. And I never understood the giant plastic figures throughout the land. Are they posed and lifeless because Andy set them up that way and humans are around (like in the movies)? If so, why are the meet and greet characters able to interact with us? And if we’re shrink down to their size, why are they so big?

It’s fine. It’s all fine.

 

[Lora Baines Bradley]

I won't take this TSL slander. But I'm biased, as my CP was in TSL, so...

 

[_caleb]

This is true so solutions can be theming of a different concept of conciet.
There are various types of theming.
One type of theming is called associative theming. The kind you typically see in presentational park s such as Sea World that have their thrills not immersive but inspired typically by animals that they cannot feature in their exhibits such as Mako or Manta, or myths of animal lore such as Loch Ness or Montu.

In this sense, Vellcicoaster could end up being meta. If Jurassic Park was real it would feature rides as well as Dinos. This is referenced by a line in the first film.
It is a coaster inspired by the speed of the velociraptor. There may be immersion bonuses of placemakeing. The theme park themed to zoo theme park theme may not be the best for some's taste but it makes sense.

If the meta approach were intentional, then yes, I’d agree. But when there aren’t enough indications that the ”imagineers” designers meant to do that, it’s doesn’t usually resonate with guests like it should (hello, Dino-Rama).

A real Jurassic Park might indeed have a roller coaster to simulate the movement of a dinosaur. But if that coaster isn’t themed, it doesn’t seem like a very good inspiration for a themed attraction. ”The new Jurassic Coaster is highly-themed after an unthemed coaster that might exist in a real Jurassic Park” seems a bit flimsy to me.

 

[_caleb]

I won't take this TSL slander. But I'm biased, as my CP was in TSL, so...

Sorry! It’s lovely and a lot of fun!

Part of the problem is that Disney’s “highs” have raised my expectations. After years growing up in the parks, I’ve come to see a lot more of what “might have been.” Which is not always fair, I admit.