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On layoffs, very bad attendance, and Iger's legacy being one of disgrace

MonorailCoral

Active Member
You're allowed to have your opinion.

If you'll indulge the counter argument. EPCOT Center was inspirational and aspirational. The whole was greater than the sum of its parts and those parts were stripped down with piecemeal changes that diluted that greater theme.
I've heard that argument. To be honest, the original "whole" (that I remember) felt far more piecemeal than it does today. Inspirational/aspirational-wise, I can't say that the three substantial gains in my previous post would be any less...In fact, on the contrary, seeing as they all induce multiple sensory perceptions to get their main points across which, I believe, were generally lacking in what they replaced.

Ever been to a world's fair? I was at 3 before I went to Epcot (had been to the MK several times before Epcot opened) and Epcot was an ongoing world's fair with the best the world, and corporate sponsorship, could exhibit. It was magical. The 90's were good from what I hear, I didn't get back to Epcot til 2000 and it was a shell of what I knew from the start.
I haven't had such an experience of a true world's fair...But I'm not sure if noticing the gain or lack of a Kodak sponsorship (or whoever) splashed across a short stand-up panovision movie of Canada would really change anything for me. I don't have any gripes about the old-versus-newer World Showcase...It still feels the same to me as it always did.
 

DisneyDebRob

Well-Known Member
I don't get the nostalgia for the original EPCOT. I had been there a handful of times pre-1995 (pre-teen years) and then not again until 2009+ (well into adulthood), and I found the latter visits to be far superior.

Soarin'? Compared to the Cabaret and the other thing that either preceded or replaced it? C'mon. Original EPCOT + The Land = Solely the boat ride. Substantial gain.

Mission: Space? I have vivid memories of my childhood, but one of them is not Horizons. I would have remembered something about it if there was something worth remembering. Substantial gain.

Test Track? Ok, the original version was better than the computer version, but the computer version still stands on its own as a great ride. But like Horizons, I have no childhood memory of World of Motion...Couldn't have been worth remembering. Substantial gain.

The Universe of Energy (even pre-Ellen and BNTSG)...Fancy moving auditorium seating and some dinosaurs. That was nap time. No big loss.

The Wonders of Life...Ok, the loss of Body Wars was a substantial loss.

The Living Seas...Ok, a de-theming from Nemo and a return of the Hydrolators would be welcome. But otherwise, it still largely is what it is.

Journey Into Imagination...Ehh, Figment is still Figment, Honey I Shrunk The Audience was cool, seeing Captain EO again was cool, but I really don't mourn either of their losses. The jumping fountains are still the best part.

Spaceship Earth is still Spaceship Earth.

Everything not around the perimeter of Future World (with the exception of Spaceship Earth) was, and still is, a complete dead (to me) zone and is inconveniently large when crossing.

The World Showcase...Other than the conversion from Maelstrom, I can't think of anything else that isn't substantially the same as it always was.

Summing up the substantial gains/losses:

+3 (Soarin', Mission: Space, Test Track)
-1 (Body Wars)

I'm just not seeing the nostalgia.
Epcot in early 80’s was far and above anything since. It was a incredible park and over the last 30 years has been going down in every way. I’m not saying I don’t enjoy it now and also not saying I’m one of the people that wants to bring everything thing back that has closed. It was just a far better park then now.
 

rowrbazzle

Well-Known Member
I distinctively remember reading on this site that Iger and Chapek disagreed on whether or not to reopen the parks. Then again, I have no idea what's true and what isn't true when it comes to recent rumors on this site.

Yeah, I read that too. I was trying to say that given the info regarding the virus and Chapek's statements on bookings, that rumor doesn't ring true to me.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
You don't. Most of WDW was better 25 years ago. EPCOT was obviously light years better, but the Magic Kingdom was better overall as well. Hollywood Studios was very different, but I don't think it was really any worse than it is now. Losing Galaxy's Edge would hurt, but you'd get back the backlot tour with working studios and Disney animators, which is probably a wash overall because that was significantly better than Toy Story Land.

Only major thing missing overall would be Animal Kingdom, which I love, but not as much as original EPCOT.
The value was better...the service was better...

Everyone dances around this question of: what was better then or now?

It was then. But it wasn’t the parks. It was the way they valued the customer.
I don't? I was at Epcot 6, 9 and 18 months after it opened. I know what it was.
Maybe I misunderstand.
You didn’t misunderstand...you “misremember” 😉
I distinctively remember reading on this site that Iger and Chapek disagreed on whether or not to reopen the parks. Then again, I have no idea what's true and what isn't true when it comes to recent rumors on this site.
Yeah, I read that too. I was trying to say that given the info regarding the virus and Chapek's statements on bookings, that rumor doesn't ring true to me.
Hmmm...I hadn’t read that...

Which one wanted to open and which one allegedly didn’t?
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
I don't get the nostalgia for the original EPCOT. I had been there a handful of times pre-1995 (pre-teen years) and then not again until 2009+ (well into adulthood), and I found the latter visits to be far superior.

Soarin'? Compared to the Cabaret and the other thing that either preceded or replaced it? C'mon. Original EPCOT + The Land = Solely the boat ride. Substantial gain.

Mission: Space? I have vivid memories of my childhood, but one of them is not Horizons. I would have remembered something about it if there was something worth remembering. Substantial gain.

Test Track? Ok, the original version was better than the computer version, but the computer version still stands on its own as a great ride. But like Horizons, I have no childhood memory of World of Motion...Couldn't have been worth remembering. Substantial gain.

The Universe of Energy (even pre-Ellen and BNTSG)...Fancy moving auditorium seating and some dinosaurs. That was nap time. No big loss.

The Wonders of Life...Ok, the loss of Body Wars was a substantial loss.

The Living Seas...Ok, a de-theming from Nemo and a return of the Hydrolators would be welcome. But otherwise, it still largely is what it is.

Journey Into Imagination...Ehh, Figment is still Figment, Honey I Shrunk The Audience was cool, seeing Captain EO again was cool, but I really don't mourn either of their losses. The jumping fountains are still the best part.

Spaceship Earth is still Spaceship Earth.

Everything not around the perimeter of Future World (with the exception of Spaceship Earth) was, and still is, a complete dead (to me) zone and is inconveniently large when crossing.

The World Showcase...Other than the conversion from Maelstrom, I can't think of anything else that isn't substantially the same as it always was.

Summing up the substantial gains/losses:

+3 (Soarin', Mission: Space, Test Track)
-1 (Body Wars)

I'm just not seeing the nostalgia.

Nothing wrong with your opinion, I just disagree completely. I'll go pavilion by pavilion with my thoughts:

The original Imagination was one of the best rides Disney has ever built; the current incarnation is one of the worst. ImageWorks was also incredibly fun for kids and it's not even close to what it once was. That pavilion has taken a major hit.

Horizons was also one of the best rides Disney has ever built. Mission: Space is okay, but nothing special. Another giant loss there.

World of Motion was a great ride. Test Track 1.0 was a good ride too, and was better than Test Track 2.0, so... net loss even just comparing the original Test Track to the current version.

The current incarnation of Spaceship Earth is worse than the older version in several ways, so that's another loss.

As you said, the entire Wonders of Life pavilion is gone, so that's a loss by default.

The Living Seas was much better back then as well -- not only because the Nemo ride is awful and took away your ride through the aquarium, but because the whole theming of the pavilion as an underwater sea base was really well done. The first time I was in EPCOT as a young child I actually believed we'd traveled under the ocean because of how seamless and integrated the entire experience was from start to finish.

The Land is the only pavilion where I agree with you. I think Soarin' is a net gain for that pavilion over the two former shows, although I think it's a bit of a stretch thematically. Even there, the interior of the pavilion overall is not what it once was when it had a fountain and other touches that have been removed, but I don't really blame Disney for that -- I don't think there was enough space for the crowds as attendance increased.

I personally really liked Universe of Energy; the theater moving into the past and seeing dinosaurs was incredibly cool as a kid. It wasn't on the level of Imagination, Horizons, Spaceship Earth, etc. but it was a good experience. Guardians could be a better ride, but it also doesn't fit the park at all, so it's hard to say it's going to be an improvement. It's also not open yet so who knows.

I would say every single pavilion in Future World is worse, and often significantly worse, than what was there in, say, 1994 except for the Land. It's basically a skeleton of what once existed. With that said, some of those rides would have needed serious changes/updates to still exist today. Horizons would have needed a complete overhaul, for one. But that would have been preferable to replacing it with Mission: Space.

Just because you don't think Horizons and World of Motion were worth remembering doesn't mean they weren't for other people -- Horizons absolutely blew me away as a kid. I almost never watch ride videos on Youtube, but I've watched Horizons several times over the years because of how much I miss it. It, Journey into Imagination, Spaceship Earth, and the original Living Seas are what made EPCOT my favorite place in the world.

As for the World Showcase, yeah, it's mostly the same just walking around and looking at it. I think the change from Maelstrom to FEA was a loss for the thematic integrity of the World Showcase as a whole -- especially since it also changed other parts of the Norway pavilion to Frozen -- but I don't think FEA is a worse ride (I don't think it's a good ride, but I don't think Maelstrom was especially good either). I do think the food quality in the World Showcase has decreased over the years, but that's an issue across WDW as a whole.
 
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UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
The plans had it labeled as a C Ticket.

Well there you go! NRJ is a very good C ticket for Pandora that greatly enhances the land, in my (apparently minority) opinion. Yes, it's too short and lacks animatronics, but it's also lush and full of detail in a way other relatively recent Disney rides (Little Mermaid, FEA) are not. Not too bad for a C ticket.

It's not the ride's fault that the wait times are out of alignment with the experience.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
Well there you go! NRJ is a very good C ticket for Pandora that greatly enhances the land, in my (apparently minority) opinion. Yes, it's too short and lacks animatronics, but it's also lush and full of detail in a way other relatively recent Disney rides (Little Mermaid, FEA) are not. Not too bad for a C ticket.

It's not the ride's fault that the wait times are out of alignment with the experience.
I like Navi...a lot.

But the problem is these 2 ride “minilands” Just don’t cut it. You can’t get “lost” in them for hours and that should be the goal. That’s how you get longterm appeal/nostalgia.

The “template” is broken.
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
I like Navi...a lot.

But the problem is these 2 ride “minilands” Just don’t cut it. You can’t get “lost” in them for hours and that should be the goal. That’s how you get longterm appeal/nostalgia.

The “template” is broken.

I think Galaxy's Edge should put the nail in the coffin for those mini-lands, although it won't.

It's not that Galaxy's Edge is bad, because it's not. But it takes up a large amount of real estate with a lot of empty space. In theory that would make the land better because it wouldn't feel so cramped, but instead (at least for me) it made the area feel very sparse and like it was lacking something.

I'm just guessing here, and I could be completely wrong, but I bet they could have put in a table service restaurant, one or two more rides, and probably another shop or two using that same area if it had been designed differently.
 

J4546

Well-Known Member
I think they should add a fantasy springs area in magic kingdom, just like the one theyre putting in disneysea. Except without a hotel, so itll be even bigger. I really want to see that peter pan world/ride when its all done in tokyo!
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
I think Galaxy's Edge should put the nail in the coffin for those mini-lands, although it won't.

It's not that Galaxy's Edge is bad, because it's not. But it takes up a large amount of real estate with a lot of empty space. In theory that would make the land better because it wouldn't feel so cramped, but instead (at least for me) it made the area feel very sparse and like it was lacking something.

I'm just guessing here, and I could be completely wrong, but I bet they could have put in a table service restaurant, one or two more rides, and probably another shop or two using that same area if it had been designed differently.
As usual...I couldn’t agree more.

You nailed it. But don’t forget: they hedged - typical Iger move - and built “abramsland”. That was stupid on all levels...and in retrospect.

And they kept saying: “this is the biggest land ever!!”

To me...it’s as though you see the display windows at Macy’s in heralds square packed to the gills on black Friday...and you go inside to find a couple of clearance racks.

As only WDI can - spend a billion on facades and rock work with two limited capacity rides.

It’s just not enough. I was in Disneyland and it wasn’t enough...it can only be worse in MGM...where they spent five years building stuff that results in net zero new capacity...or close to it.

Not good enough...which is appropriate given Disney’s handling of Star Wars.
 
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Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
I think they should add a fantasy springs area in magic kingdom, just like the one theyre putting in disneysea. Except without a hotel, so itll be even bigger. I really want to see that peter pan world/ride when its all done in tokyo!
Magic kingdom is low on the priority list, is limited for space...and STILL is getting the best new attraction
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
I don't get the nostalgia for the original EPCOT. I had been there a handful of times pre-1995 (pre-teen years) and then not again until 2009+ (well into adulthood), and I found the latter visits to be far superior.

Soarin'? Compared to the Cabaret and the other thing that either preceded or replaced it? C'mon. Original EPCOT + The Land = Solely the boat ride. Substantial gain.

Mission: Space? I have vivid memories of my childhood, but one of them is not Horizons. I would have remembered something about it if there was something worth remembering. Substantial gain.

Test Track? Ok, the original version was better than the computer version, but the computer version still stands on its own as a great ride. But like Horizons, I have no childhood memory of World of Motion...Couldn't have been worth remembering. Substantial gain.

The Universe of Energy (even pre-Ellen and BNTSG)...Fancy moving auditorium seating and some dinosaurs. That was nap time. No big loss.

The Wonders of Life...Ok, the loss of Body Wars was a substantial loss.

The Living Seas...Ok, a de-theming from Nemo and a return of the Hydrolators would be welcome. But otherwise, it still largely is what it is.

Journey Into Imagination...Ehh, Figment is still Figment, Honey I Shrunk The Audience was cool, seeing Captain EO again was cool, but I really don't mourn either of their losses. The jumping fountains are still the best part.

Spaceship Earth is still Spaceship Earth.

Everything not around the perimeter of Future World (with the exception of Spaceship Earth) was, and still is, a complete dead (to me) zone and is inconveniently large when crossing.

The World Showcase...Other than the conversion from Maelstrom, I can't think of anything else that isn't substantially the same as it always was.

Summing up the substantial gains/losses:

+3 (Soarin', Mission: Space, Test Track)
-1 (Body Wars)

I'm just not seeing the nostalgia.
Sounds like you’re looking for an amusement park...not a true theme park. Test track isn’t theme park...neither is soarin.

...it’s too bad boardwalk and baseball and Splendid China closed 🤔
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I think Galaxy's Edge should put the nail in the coffin for those mini-lands, although it won't.

It's not that Galaxy's Edge is bad, because it's not. But it takes up a large amount of real estate with a lot of empty space. In theory that would make the land better because it wouldn't feel so cramped, but instead (at least for me) it made the area feel very sparse and like it was lacking something.

I'm just guessing here, and I could be completely wrong, but I bet they could have put in a table service restaurant, one or two more rides, and probably another shop or two using that same area if it had been designed differently.
This is part of that vicious cycle of escalating costs combined with changes in the approach to design. Everything has to be physically more massive because capacity is contained in fewer offerings while the understand of space and place have also been forgotten/abandoned. Toy Story Land is the most egregious recent example, a physically massive land with few offerings that is already being expanded for a relatively small restaurant because its layout is not well suited to additions.

What Galaxy’s Edge lacks is windows. When you’re trying to depict a war torn galaxy on location on a budget, windows are an additional expense you don’t need to spare when the focus is more on the characters. In an inhabited space their abscense becomes oppressive. As social creatures we like windows, we like seeing activity inside and out, we instinctively like sunlight and the play of light and shadow. In a themed environment windows create the illusion of an inhabited world beyond the area we physically occupy.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
I think the Guardians ride will probably be more impressive than Tron in a vacuum (i.e. ignoring the fact it doesn't belong in EPCOT at all).
It’s possible but I think lightcycle will have a long line/virtual gestapo style queue forever. The fact that isn’t more basic and is a disneyfied amusement type ride will build a strong following quickly. They don’t all have to be FOP...sometimes primal works. RNRC is the best example of that.

And guardians is ok...but silly longterm because it’s not a mainstrem
Marvel pull Franchise. Using whatever they had seems short sighted. Just my opinion
 
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Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
This is part of that vicious cycle of escalating costs combined with changes in the approach to design. Everything has to be physically more massive because capacity is contained in fewer offerings while the understand of space and place have also been forgotten/abandoned. Toy Story Land is the most egregious recent example, a physically massive land with few offerings that is already being expanded for a relatively small restaurant because its layout is not well suited to additions.

What Galaxy’s Edge lacks is windows. When you’re trying to depict a war torn galaxy on location on a budget, windows are an additional expense you don’t need to spare when the focus is more on the characters. In an inhabited space their abscense becomes oppressive. As social creatures we like windows, we like seeing activity inside and out, we instinctively like sunlight and the play of light and shadow. In a themed environment windows create the illusion of an inhabited world beyond the area we physically occupy.
Woah...that 💩 is DEEP!!

👍🏻
 

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