NYT: "Universal....Takes Aim at Disney"

flynnibus

flynnibus

Premium Member
Disney set a standard with DL in the 60s...
DL rode that wave through the 70s..
WDW capitalized on that wave in the 70s..
WDW proved itself and double downed in the 80s.. and won the hearts of Americans all over in the 70s and 80s.

Disney 'won the war' and as Tod said.. 'Orlando equals WDW to us' is true for a lot of people because of that period of success.

But once that happened.. Disney leadership changed.. the vision changed.. the product strategy changed...

I think many people love the 90s and later because they see it as a period of 'growth' - but miss that the shift in strategy also came with a lot of skeletons in the closet. It just took time for those skeletons to work their way out and become more visible. That's what happened at DL.. the new leadership's focus resulted in the foundation of show to be weakened to the point of breaking. In WDW, the focus resulted in poor creative decision making which had much longer impacts on the parks. The skeletons of lack of upkeep and show standards took longer to appear in WDW.. but that is what we are still burdened with today. The momentum of the 80s and into early early 90s is fading. The competition is growing while WDW continues to coast on its past history.

People remember 'the Disney Decade' and all the expansion that came with it, but forget the strategies and sins committed back than that still haunt the company today because the very principles and standards that 'won the war' have been purged from the way of working in the company today.

These skeletons are long term haunts. Someone may love Mission:Space and flock to EPCOT to ride it.. but how much they love M:S isn't going to make them like an neutered Imagination pavilion any better. And that's what happens with this strategy.. you get 'hot spots' surrounded by a growing number of cool or cold spots. Instead of a healthy balance.. you get parks where people want to come and do one or two things.. and leave. Sound familar DHS??

Over time the number of cold spots continues to grow.. and the hot spots can't stay hot forever because they are not maintained. So they keep searching for new things to make hot spots.. instead of trying to fix why things keep going from hot to cold.

And now you get where we are now. Disney hasn't been adding new hot spots... so everyone is like '.. Disney hasn't done anything!' and Disney isn't able to satisfy the audience because instead of building a sustainable product that keeps people returning.. they have slid further and further towards the regional amusement park model of 'if we don't have anything new, no one will come'.

When you build attractions at the scale Disney does - you can't financially afford to keep adding attractions constantly as your way to stimulate demand. The attractions must be sustainable draws for decades.

The seeking of 'new hot spots' and ignoring why things are going cold... is the reason behind the sediment of the slipping of the park's quality and sustainability.
 
flavious27

flavious27

Well-Known Member
flynnibus said:
People in attractions are a far more efficient use of space than 'add to the capacity by using more land'. Don't get hung up on the footprint of the park. It's about people DENSITY and places to put people.. and attractions add capacity far more effectively than simple open space.
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Well you really can't have people packed like sardines throughout the whole property. So if FJ has an hourly capacity of 2k, the wait time is usually an hour or so, it added about 2k to the capacity.

Tod&BigMamaOdie said:
Fenway Park? Isn't that like the new home for the Orioles? :D:p

and now that I've said that, the Birds will sink to last in the AL East with another losing record for the 14th (or is it the 15th?) year in a row...
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Spoken like a true o's fan.
 
bubbles1812

bubbles1812

Well-Known Member
ParentsOf4 said:
You bring up an interesting parallel, McDonald's. Our children are teenagers now and still consider McDonald's to be the "default" fast food joint. (It does make you wonder what they put in those burgers!) Similarly, they and their friends consider WDW to be the "default" vacation destination. They like UO but, to them, "Orlando vacation" means WDW, just like "fast food" mean McDonald's. Basically, they've been "trained" by marketing at an early age to think that way and it has carried forward into their teenage years. We purchased UO annual passes earlier this year and I have to practically beg them to go to UO. Again, for them, "Orlando vacation" means WDW. IMHO, UO has to break kids of that habit in order to seriously impact WDW revenue.

And I enjoy WDW1974's posts too!

By the way, I'm not a bad parent. We rarely go out for fast food and our chidlren are all competative swimmers who burn thousands of extra calories a day. So please, don't flame me on that one!;)
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You bring up interesting points Parentsof4. I do think Disney marketing's strategy has been that over the years. Condition people to think that their default vacation should be Disney, that Orlando means Disney, and taa da, you never have to worry about people coming to your parks. And I do agree UO has to break that habit in order to begin seriously impacting WDW.

I'm not sure you will agree on this (which is fine, it's just my opinion :)), but Universal has already begun to break people of this habit. I don't really think they were before the advent of Potter but since it was built, definitely yes. They chose an extremely popular book series beloved by not just adults...but children too. The parks growing numbers reflect that. It's not just families of teenage boys visiting Universal. And from what I've seen, people's habits are changing. As has been stated by others on this thread and in my own experience, more and more people are taking time out of what would have been an all Disney vacation for Universal (and other parks). So when people think "Orlando vacation," they are no longer just thinking Disney.

I'll use myself as an example. When I was younger, I was exactly like that. Disney was where we went and we went no other place. I heard "Orlando" and I thought Disney. Then we gave Universal a one day try and we loved it. We gave Uni more time the next trip and also thought, hey, Uni was great...why don't we try Sea World too? And we loved it there too. So now when I hear "Orlando," I think Disney, Universal, Sea World. And that was before Potter even came along. Habits are indeed hard to break but I think Universal has finally developed a winning strategy for it and we'll only see the pattern continue with the opening of Potter 2.0 as well as whatever else (they seem to have other major plans in the works from what has been said on here) they have coming down the pipeline.

And it also doesn't help the fact that Disney has scaled back on doing things that will absolutely "wow" old fans of Disney and new ones alike. I'm looking forward to NFE, I really really am, but nothing I've seen about it has really wowed me in any way. At the end of the day its a new restaurant (with most likely generic park food), a meet and greet, an enhancement on an old ride, and a family roller coaster. Those don't say "pushing the boundaries of technology and creativity" to me, as I (used to) expect of Disney, though I'm sure I'll enjoy them. It's just not the level I know Disney could be at if they wanted to. To keep habits reinforced you have to keep offering new things and when I say new, I don't necessarily mean say even a new park or tons and tons and tons of new rides, though I would like it a few. New can mean overhauling an old ride even or just fixing what is wrong with AK/DHS. I'm not sure Disney is "reinforcing the habit" as well as they used to.
 
jt04

jt04

Well-Known Member
Tom Morrow said:
I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about Splash Mountain being in Frontierland. Maybe its a slight stretch, but it makes more sense than Stitch and Monsters in Tomorrowland.

Though I don't know why I'm replying as its obvious you're just trolling at this point.
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Never have, never will. And yes there are complaints about Splash in FL. I thought it was ridiculous too until I thought about it awhile. Certainly not as big a nightmare as what has happened to T-Land but it definitely is something that needs fixin'.

The BAH and Communicore Plaza clutter may even be bigger problems but I no longer give spalsh as pass.
 
jt04

jt04

Well-Known Member
bubbles1812 said:
You bring up interesting points Parentsof4. I do think Disney marketing's strategy has been that over the years. Condition people to think that their default vacation should be Disney, that Orlando means Disney, and taa da, you never have to worry about people coming to your parks. And I do agree UO has to break that habit in order to begin seriously impacting WDW.
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Adding about a half dozen more E-Tickets might do the trick.
 
bubbles1812

bubbles1812

Well-Known Member
jt04 said:
Adding about a half dozen more E-Tickets might do the trick.
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Are you referring to Universal adding more E-tickets? Or Disney? I'm going to assume you mean Disney. Because I actually (surprise, surprise) agree with you that is definitely the way Disney combats Universal's encroachment on Disney. The problem is I've seen nothing coming down the pipeline that makes me think Disney is doing this as of yet or even in the near future. As I said in the rest of my post...new FLE is going to be great, but a family roller coaster isn't an E-ticket ride to me. It'll be nice but again, there is so so much more I know Disney is capable of. A restaurant isn't an E-ticket ride nor is story time with a character and adding a second spinner on Dumbo most certainly isn't.

And it's not even certain if we'll get an Avatarland (as we have already heard reports it is being scaled back). And if you point to Carsland, JT, as I know you are want to do...it's not in Orlando. It's irrelevant to Orlando. It's an E ticket but not in Orlando. So don't use it as an example...again, it's irrelevant to Orlando and if you use it I'll just laugh at you. Nor can you just say "Disney has wonderful spectacular stuff coming and they are just waiting to see what Uni does." Everyone already poked holes in that argument, it would be absolutely terrible business sense by Disney seeing as Uni is not going to just stop after Potter 2.0 (see all WhyLightBulb's posts) and you can't/haven't supported it with any verifiable evidence whatsoever.

Without Disney doing something to "wow" people and reinforce their habit, Universal breaks peoples' Disney habit more and more, as I again explained it that post (sorry, don't want to rewrite it all out).
 
jt04

jt04

Well-Known Member
bubbles1812 said:
Are you referring to Universal adding more E-tickets? Or Disney? I'm going to assume you mean Disney, pixie dust. Because I actually (surprise, surprise) agree with you that is definitely the way Disney combats Universal's encroachment on Disney. The problem is I've seen nothing coming down the pipeline that makes me think Disney is doing this as of yet or even in the near future. As I said in the rest of my post...new FLE is going to be great, but a family roller coaster isn't an E-ticket ride to me. It'll be nice but again, there is so so much more I know Disney is capable of. A restaurant isn't an E-ticket ride nor is story time with a character and adding a second spinner on Dumbo most certainly isn't. And it's not even certain if we'll get an Avatarland (as we have already heard reports it is being scaled back). And if you point to Carsland, JT, as I know you are want to do...it's not in Orlando. It's irrelevant to Orlando. It's an E ticket but not in Orlando. So don't use it as an example...again, it's irrelevant to Orlando.

Without Disney doing something to "wow" people and reinforce their habit, Universal breaks peoples' Disney habit more and more, as I again explained it that post (sorry, don't want to rewrite it all out).
Click to expand...

Obviously I was talking about Uni which lags greatly in the numbers game. I read today that the mouse may be spending a half a billion on AvLand and that the signature attraction will be the most expensive attraction ever. People here were denying a half a billion dollar investment was coming to the MK too and then they were silenced (enter the smiley with the tape over its mouth here to represent the doubters).
 
Tod&BigMamaOdie

Tod&BigMamaOdie

Well-Known Member
bubbles1812 said:
You bring up interesting points Parentsof4. I do think Disney marketing's strategy has been that over the years. Condition people to think that their default vacation should be Disney, that Orlando means Disney, and taa da, you never have to worry about people coming to your parks. And I do agree UO has to break that habit in order to begin seriously impacting WDW.

I'm not sure you will agree on this (which is fine, it's just my opinion :)), but Universal has already begun to break people of this habit. I don't really think they were before the advent of Potter but since it was built, definitely yes. They chose an extremely popular book series beloved by not just adults...but children too. The parks growing numbers reflect that. It's not just families of teenage boys visiting Universal. And from what I've seen, people's habits are changing. As has been stated by others on this thread and in my own experience, more and more people are taking time out of what would have been an all Disney vacation for Universal (and other parks). So when people think "Orlando vacation," they are no longer just thinking Disney.

I'll use myself as an example. When I was younger, I was exactly like that. Disney was where we went and we went no other place. I heard "Orlando" and I thought Disney. Then we gave Universal a one day try and we loved it. We gave Uni more time the next trip and also thought, hey, Uni was great...why don't we try Sea World too? And we loved it there too. So now when I hear "Orlando," I think Disney, Universal, Sea World. And that was before Potter even came along. Habits are indeed hard to break but I think Universal has finally developed a winning strategy for it and we'll only see the pattern continue with the opening of Potter 2.0 as well as whatever else (they seem to have other major plans in the works from what has been said on here) they have coming down the pipeline.

And it also doesn't help the fact that Disney has scaled back on doing things that will absolutely "wow" old fans of Disney and new ones alike. I'm looking forward to NFE, I really really am, but nothing I've seen about it has really wowed me in any way. At the end of the day its a new restaurant (with most likely generic park food), a meet and greet, an enhancement on an old ride, and a family roller coaster. Those don't say "pushing the boundaries of technology and creativity" to me, as I (used to) expect of Disney, though I'm sure I'll enjoy them. It's just not the level I know Disney could be at if they wanted to. To keep habits reinforced you have to keep offering new things and when I say new, I don't necessarily mean say even a new park or tons and tons and tons of new rides, though I would like it a few. New can mean overhauling an old ride even or just fixing what is wrong with AK/DHS. I'm not sure Disney is "reinforcing the habit" as well as they used to.
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Good point on changing perceptions. It's hard to envision, though it may be possible, the day when the mass/majority perception (the casuals, not just the true hard core fans) changes to the point of a "polar shift" and UO becomes the main draw in Orlando.
The sandbox is big enough for more than one kid, which would be lonely and doesn't quite create the fun, playful, imaginative environment.
 
T

twebber55

Well-Known Member
jt04 said:
Obviously I was talking about Uni which lags greatly in the numbers game. I read today that the mouse may be spending a half a billion on AvLand and that the signature attraction will be the most expensive attraction ever. People here were denying a half a billion dollar investment was coming to the MK too and then they were silenced (enter the smiley with the tape over its mouth here to represent the doubters).
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where did you read this because this would excite me...im one thats really excited about this project
 
bubbles1812

bubbles1812

Well-Known Member
jt04 said:
Obviously I was talking about Uni which lags greatly in the numbers game. I read today that the mouse may be spending a half a billion on AvLand and that the signature attraction will be the most expensive attraction ever. People here were denying a half a billion dollar investment was coming to the MK too and then they were silenced (enter the smiley with the tape over its mouth here to represent the doubters).
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Sigh. Are you still on about how the MK/Disney gets more visitors? Just making sure you aren't talking about that and purely talking about E ticket ride numbers (though even that is a bit of an unfair comparison. Disney has 4 parks, Uni 2. Of course Disney is going to have more) But anyways, if you still are on about Disney and its attendance, again, as everyone said over and over, the total number attendance wise is irrelevant too. It's about % increase in attendance and other factors.

Also, if you are going to say you read the mouse may be spending a half a billion dollars, please provide the link. If you can't, I'm going to assume it is your normal BS. It has been stated Uni will be spending $150 million per year over the next five...that's 754.5 million dollars over the next 5 years. And they are adding more, at least two that we know of, E tickets. So I suppose you could say they are catching up. It's not like Uni isn't spending the same amount of money on their upcoming projects. Though I wouldn't doubt the Avatarland's signature attraction eventually becoming the most expensive ever (at least for a period of time)...let's just hope its good.
 
jt04

jt04

Well-Known Member
bubbles1812 said:
Sigh. Are you still on about how the MK/Disney gets more visitors? Just making sure you aren't talking about that and purely talking about E ticket ride numbers (though even that is a bit of an unfair comparison. Disney has 4 parks, Uni 2. Of course Disney is going to have more) But anyways, if you still are on about Disney and its attendance, again, as everyone said over and over, the total number attendance wise is irrelevant too. It's about % increase in attendance and other factors.

Also, if you are going to say you read the mouse may be spending a half a billion dollars, please provide the link. If you can't, I'm going to assume it is your normal BS. It has been stated Uni will be spending $150 million per year over the next five...that's 754.5 million dollars over the next 5 years. And they are adding more, at least two that we know of, E tickets. So I suppose you could say they are catching up. It's not like Uni isn't spending the same amount of money on their upcoming projects. Though I wouldn't doubt the Avatarland's signature attraction eventually becoming the most expensive ever (at least for a period of time)...let's just hope its good.
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See the article in the post above. Remember also that this is only refering to the investment for AvLand. This does not include upgrades to the Safari and possibly FotLK. Not to mention the investments that may be percolating at the other 3 parks we have not heard about yet. (and Test Track too).
 

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