Norway Pavilion Frozen construction - Frozen Ever After ride

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Phil12

Well-Known Member
Suspension of disbelief is a reaction, not a decision.
I fully disagree. I know that The Tree of Life is not really a tree, but I go along with it. I know that Kilimanjaro Safaris is in Florida but I make a conscious decision to "pretend" I'm in Africa. I know that the monorail is a hopelessly impractical, inefficient and expensive form of mass transportation but I make the decision to think of it as a very practical modern marvel.

It's all part of imagination. I could easily decide not to suspend my disbelief. For example, I always find it very difficult to believe that TWDC created such a crappy attraction as IASW. I always imagine that it was created by some cheap carnival owner as a charity fundraiser. But then I remember how Walt was so anxious to please the big money sponsors such as Pepsi that he'd do anything (including an unrealistic schedule for design and construction) to gain their support. So I really have to use my imagination and make a decision to suspend my disbelief to enjoy IASW. Needless to say, for me, enjoying IASW takes a lot of work on my part. But it proves that imagination can help make a lousy attraction better than it appears as long as I decide to use my imagination and consciously suspend my disbelief.

As for the Tiki Room and CBJ, I would have to imagine that those attractions are still there because an evil executive at Disney is doing his best to put WDW out of business.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I fully disagree. I know that The Tree of Life is not really a tree, but I go along with it. I know that Kilimanjaro Safaris is in Florida but I make a conscious decision to "pretend" I'm in Africa. I know that the monorail is a hopelessly impractical, inefficient and expensive form of mass transportation but I make the decision to think of it as a very practical modern marvel.

It's all part of imagination. I could easily decide not to suspend my disbelief. For example, I always find it very difficult to believe that TWDC created such a crappy attraction as IASW. I always imagine that it was created by some cheap carnival owner as a charity fundraiser. But then I remember how Walt was so anxious to please the big money sponsors such as Pepsi that he'd do anything (including an unrealistic schedule for design and construction) to gain their support. So I really have to use my imagination and make a decision to suspend my disbelief to enjoy IASW. Needless to say, for me, enjoying IASW takes a lot of work on my part. But it proves that imagination can help make a lousy attraction better than it appears as long as I decide to use my imagination and consciously suspend my disbelief.

As for the Tiki Room and CBJ, I would have to imagine that those attractions are still there because an evil executive at Disney is doing his best to put WDW out of business.
Just because you are using the term 'suspension of disbelief' instead of 'ignore' doesn't change that suspension of disbelief is actually a concept that is not supposed to be voluntary. You're just making up a new meaning to fit your dismissal of the entire concept.
 

Phil12

Well-Known Member
Consistently calling attention to the arbitrariness of themed entertainment makes it seem like you don’t take it seriously. You were perfectly fine with the BAH, and since Main Street was lacking in knobs and tubes the whole illusion is kitsch, and thus there is no reason to draw the line anywhere; there’s no reason to care about anything as long as there’s a contrived pretence to suitable theme. As long as it’s “showy”. Frozen is fine because hell, it looks enough like Norway. Am I getting that right?

We all have preconceptions about the project because it’s just obvious what it is. Frozen is not perfectly appropriate for WS because most fans can see past the lustre and observe, as RedSox pointed out, the piecemeal devolution of Epcot into Magic Kingdom South. You’re welcome to be okay with that, but it is what it is. Epcot was so complete in 1982 that you can imagine a “constitution” for what that park was based on its dedication, its content, common themes, and the continuing additions that characterized the park for its originality. IPs aren’t evil, but they’re not original, and they’re incongruous to the vision of Epcot devised by the second generation imagineers. That is fact.

However I’m not accusing you of being wrong because all you’re essentially saying is, “who cares? theme parks are theme parks, truth is subjective, get a grip people.” You can argue that reinforcing standards of authenticity over practicality has a basis in lunacy, I mean who will really notice the transition from steam to diesel? Well it’s funny you acknowledge that toddlers wouldn’t appreciate Parking Lot Frozen because of a red flag in their subconscious. You can call it whatever you like, but history proves that the same sensation takes off when creators are insane about the details. Look at how successful shows like Mad Men are, Matthew Weiner is obsessive about getting the period right among letters, magazines, mastheads, stamps, things NO ONE will ever pick up on. Look at the special features for Lord of the Rings for all the intricacies and hidden symbols in every article of clothing, in the architecture, the weaponry. Things that are so subtle they’re practically invisible to the eye….and look, it’s one of the most beloved franchises of all time. Theme parks are a show business, and this is how show business works. No one knows there’s steam in that train…and yet, it’s there.

So while we “purists” are hypocritically ignoring the missing knobs and tubes, we’re aware of the moving parts. How every trivial rite or detail, as insane as it looks on paper, is necessary to make the greater “it” what it is. Even if that thing is a highly romanticized environment bordering on fiction, themed environments are created by having a story, getting the details right, and sticking to both like glue. That’s how you suspend an audience’s disbelief. Frozen will be a transgression from Epcot’s story, an enjoyable experience if it’s good enough to make us forget where we are. When you walk up to “Frozen Ever After” in a pavilion that’s meant to mimic reality however (not to mention a different country), the suspension of disbelief will be shattered immediately.

I hope this doesn’t just sound stupid to you. There’s an art to themed entertainment that’s as delicate and as sophisticated as what matters in high concept films, maybe even art films. You might call us crazy…and we might call you Philistine12. ;)


(I always skip the birds and the bears too)
I'm with you on this, but I assert that the perception of theme varies a great deal from person to person. All audience members are not homogeneous. Their backgrounds, ages and educational levels vary tremendously. Let me give an example.

I am old enough to remember the old time three ring circus as well as old time carnivals. I recall the midway, the freak shows, the barkers, the smells of animal poo, the rigged carnival games and all the attendant grifters that ran those shows. It was wonderful!

My little sister wanted to go to the circus so I took her to see the Barnum and Bailey show when it came to town (mainly because the Barnum and Bailey show was higher quality and less prone to crime). We walked down the midway and saw several of the tamer freak shows, animal exhibits and played a few crooked games. We listened to the barkers, I bought her some cotton candy and a balloon and won her a small prize at one of the game booths. I was headed for the main tent at the end of the midway so that we could pay our admission and see the big show.

However, just before we got to the main tent, my little sister said, "That was the best circus ever!" She had had more excitement than she had ever experienced and was entirely pleased with her circus time. With that we walked back up the midway and went home. She still loves that memory! That was all the circus she needed.

And no, your analysis of the matter doesn't sound stupid to me at all. I just tend to think that some people on this forum have theme savant syndrome complicated by OCD. I'd like to assure those that suffer from this malady that the large majority of park guests will do just fine with a Frozen attraction in the old Norway pavilion. I tend to think that the "purists" will drive themselves to an early grave as they continue to fret over such things as this along with the removal of Mr. Toad, the removal of WOM, the removal of the Adventurers Club, the changes in Imagination and all the other trivialities associated with changes at WDW.

As far as I'm concerned, they could put a BAH in the middle of DHS and I'd still go to that park and enjoy it!
 

Phil12

Well-Known Member
Just because you are using the term 'suspension of disbelief' instead of 'ignore' doesn't change that suspension of disbelief is actually a concept that is not supposed to be voluntary. You're just making up a new meaning to fit your dismissal of the entire concept.
Some of us have more control over our brains than you.
 

Phil12

Well-Known Member

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Grasp this:
suspension of disbelief
phrase
a willingness to suspend one's critical faculties and believe the unbelievable; sacrifice of realism and logic for the sake of enjoyment

Word Origin
coined by Samuel Taylor Coleridge
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/suspension-of-disbelief

For your edification, "willingness" requires a mindful decision.
No, it doesn't. In the context of the term, "willing suspension of disbelief" it has to do with quickness and a lack of refusal. What you keep trying to pass off as suspension of disbelief is just a justification for whatever, a concept that has long been known to not produce good fiction. Coleridge coins the term describing his goals as a writer, not in listing demands of an audience.
 

FigmentForver96

Well-Known Member
No, it doesn't. In the context of the term, "willing suspension of disbelief" it has to do with quickness and a lack of refusal. What you keep trying to pass off as suspension of disbelief is just a justification for whatever, a concept that has long been known to not produce good fiction. Coleridge coins the term describing his goals as a writer, not in listing demands of an audience.
Honestly I didn't use to agree with you but what you have been saying now makes sense lol.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Please forgive the ego driven post:

I was very vocal in the My Magic + / Fastpass+ discussion. Several people on these forums agreed with me, and I stand by the words I wrote on the topic. My Magic+ wasn't a good business decision and the full implementation of Fastpass+ is exactly as we expected it to be. It has it's positive attributes, but a same day only system would be a much better alternative. Based on the plans for Disneyland, Disney has more or less agreed with myself and others. Despite recognizing (a few years too late) that the Fastpass+ program in Disney World was a bad idea, they seemingly have no plans to change Disney World. I feel somewhat vindicated that they realized this for Disneyland, but would love to see them revert to same day Fastpass+ for Disney World.

I have probably written more about the mistake that is Frozen in Norway than anyone else on the planet. I stand by those articles and forum posts as well. I stand by my statement that this will end up being the worst attraction decision in the history of Walt Disney World. That doesn't mean it will be the worst attraction, I have no expectation that it will be a bad attraction at all. But the combination of a thematic break and operational nightmare is very real. It's shortsighted and a new attraction could have easily been built from scratch in the same time frame.

Another comparison for those like @Phil12 that support this decision. I talk to countless people about Disney that always stay on property. They defend it saying they don't like the break from the magic. That's the easiest way to explain the subconscious effect of cohesive theming. Wanting to "stay in the magic" is more or less the same thing. The transition from "based in the real world" to "based in a fantasy world" is killing Epcot.

I have every expectation that I will be correct about Frozen Ever After as well. Good ride, bad location, operational nightmare.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
Please forgive the ego driven post:

I was very vocal in the My Magic + / Fastpass+ discussion. Several people on these forums agreed with me, and I stand by the words I wrote on the topic. My Magic+ wasn't a good business decision and the full implementation of Fastpass+ is exactly as we expected it to be. It has it's positive attributes, but a same day only system would be a much better alternative. Based on the plans for Disneyland, Disney has more or less agreed with myself and others. Despite recognizing (a few years too late) that the Fastpass+ program in Disney World was a bad idea, they seemingly have no plans to change Disney World. I feel somewhat vindicated that they realized this for Disneyland, but would love to see them revert to same day Fastpass+ for Disney World.

I have probably written more about the mistake that is Frozen in Norway than anyone else on the planet. I stand by those articles and forum posts as well. I stand by my statement that this will end up being the worst attraction decision in the history of Walt Disney World. That doesn't mean it will be the worst attraction, I have no expectation that it will be a bad attraction at all. But the combination of a thematic break and operational nightmare is very real. It's shortsighted and a new attraction could have easily been built from scratch in the same time frame.

Another comparison for those like @Phil12 that support this decision. I talk to countless people about Disney that always stay on property. They defend it saying they don't like the break from the magic. That's the easiest way to explain the subconscious effect of cohesive theming. Wanting to "stay in the magic" is more or less the same thing. The transition from "based in the real world" to "based in a fantasy world" is killing Epcot.

I have every expectation that I will be correct about Frozen Ever After as well. Good ride, bad location, operational nightmare.
Well, good until we have the Tokyo ride to compare it to.
 

Chris82

Well-Known Member
Good ride, bad location, operational nightmare.

"Good ride" remains to be seen. Based on their treatment of other recent-ish franchise-based rides (Nemo at Epcot, Little Mermaid at DCA), as well as what few details we have, I'd say there's a pretty strong risk of blandness and toddler-appeasement. But we'll see - hopefully I'm wrong :D
 

Phil12

Well-Known Member
Suspension of disbelief is a reaction, not a decision.
If you have an intellect, then any suspension of belief is a decision first, not simply a reaction. You're incorrect to say that no decision on the part of the audience happens.

No, it doesn't. In the context of the term, "willing suspension of disbelief" it has to do with quickness and a lack of refusal. What you keep trying to pass off as suspension of disbelief is just a justification for whatever, a concept that has long been known to not produce good fiction. Coleridge coins the term describing his goals as a writer, not in listing demands of an audience.
Quickness and lack of refusal are conscious decisions made by the audience. The audience has a choice to participate or not. You stated that suspension of belief was not a decision, when in fact it is. Also, suspension of belief is indeed a demand placed upon the audience. To wit: "Samuel Taylor Coleridge called drama "that willing suspension of disbelief for the moment, which constitutes poetic faith." When we sit in a theater, we willingly suspend our disbelief. We know that everything that is happening on the stage isn't real, but the playwright, the actors and the audience all enter into a conspiracy "of poetic faith" in an attempt to bring to life a quasi-reality that will transcend and communicate some perception about life in this world." http://ohr.edu/holidays/purim/deeper_insights/1507

"The playwright, the actors and the audience all enter into a conspiracy "of poetic faith"". The audience must make a mindful decision to enter into a conspiracy. Any audience reaction is secondary to the willing suspension of belief.
 

Phil12

Well-Known Member
"Good ride" remains to be seen. Based on their treatment of other recent-ish franchise-based rides (Nemo at Epcot, Little Mermaid at DCA), as well as what few details we have, I'd say there's a pretty strong risk of blandness and toddler-appeasement. But we'll see - hopefully I'm wrong :D
It will most likely be on par with The Three Caballeros in Mexico. They're directing this toward the little girl fandom. Watch out Taylor Swift!
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
If you have an intellect, then any suspension of belief is a decision first, not simply a reaction. You're incorrect to say that no decision on the part of the audience happens.

Quickness and lack of refusal are conscious decisions made by the audience. The audience has a choice to participate or not. You stated that suspension of belief was not a decision, when in fact it is. Also, suspension of belief is indeed a demand placed upon the audience. To wit: "Samuel Taylor Coleridge called drama "that willing suspension of disbelief for the moment, which constitutes poetic faith." When we sit in a theater, we willingly suspend our disbelief. We know that everything that is happening on the stage isn't real, but the playwright, the actors and the audience all enter into a conspiracy "of poetic faith" in an attempt to bring to life a quasi-reality that will transcend and communicate some perception about life in this world." http://ohr.edu/holidays/purim/deeper_insights/1507

"The playwright, the actors and the audience all enter into a conspiracy "of poetic faith"". The audience must make a mindful decision to enter into a conspiracy. Any audience reaction is secondary to the willing suspension of belief.
If simply experiencing fiction meant accepting everything there is no point to the term as there would never be disbelief that is to be suspended.
 

boufa

Well-Known Member
It will most likely be on par with The Three Caballeros in Mexico. They're directing this toward the little girl fandom. Watch out Taylor Swift!

What do you want? A scene where you float by the honeymoon suite on their wedding night and a whole bunch of frigid jokes?!?!?! They can't, won't or shouldn't change the characters to appeal to a different demographic than the movie... and the movie hits the young girl target.

Lets head around WDW and looks at the attractions... if you really think about it, from home at least, you would wonder why you would ever spend any money being their. With the exception of a coaster or 2, the whole place is downright silly, and in most cases very much aimed below our level. But much like a Mickey Bar somehow tastes better than an ice cream bar anywhere else, in FL, in the overall environment, even a ride targeting young girls could be fun. Most of WDW is an experience that is far greater than the sum of its parts. (The people mover....really! I love the people mover, but pick it up and put it anywhere else on this planet and I wouldn't even care enough to laugh at it)
 

JoeCamel

Well-Known Member
What do you want? A scene where you float by the honeymoon suite on their wedding night and a whole bunch of frigid jokes?!?!?! They can't, won't or shouldn't change the characters to appeal to a different demographic than the movie... and the movie hits the young girl target.

Lets head around WDW and looks at the attractions... if you really think about it, from home at least, you would wonder why you would ever spend any money being their. With the exception of a coaster or 2, the whole place is downright silly, and in most cases very much aimed below our level. But much like a Mickey Bar somehow tastes better than an ice cream bar anywhere else, in FL, in the overall environment, even a ride targeting young girls could be fun. Most of WDW is an experience that is far greater than the sum of its parts. (The people mover....really! I love the people mover, but pick it up and put it anywhere else on this planet and I wouldn't even care enough to laugh at it)

I think the deliberate dumbing down to a 6 year old's level of the parks in the last 10 years has a lot to do with your failure to see how this is a blatant move to get a "Frozen" presence into a park that was meant to enlighten and expand thinking. It will do nothing but make a boatload of money and does not further the intent of EPCOT center. Just one more brick in the wall. Keep it in the MK, that is a little girl's park already and can't be saved.
 
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