No Mickey, No Dragon='s LessThanFantasmic

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
The problem, as I see it, is that Animal Kingdom is too contrived, spending too much time on style to the detriment of substance. To illustrate, a while back I read an article (and heard a podcast) discussing all of the hidden details and backstory in Dinoland. This backstory is great, but it is not substitute for quality substance. I think it is more an afterthought, added as somewhat of a ‘smokescreen’ or to explain away why Dino-rama is such an eyesore. I couldn’t care less that it’s an “authentic” eyesore, it’s an eyesore with cheap carnival attractions, nonetheless. Now, Dinoland is a bit of an extreme example, but the case of "style over substance" exists throughout DAK. From the meticulously crafted posters (what was the fake poster budgment for this park, like $200 million?!) and facades in Africa to the seating area in Flame Tree BBQ. I could gush with superlatives over the details in that park. The problem is, these details seem to exist at the expense of substance, which is not acceptable in my opinion.

I have this same concern in other areas of the park. So much thought, time, and effort went in to making the “Disney Details” truly remarkable, but at what cost? The number of quality-themed Disney attractions is seriously lacking, to the point that the park doesn’t offer sufficient entertainment options to justify staying there a full day. DAK lacks any traditional Omnimover dark rides, which I find bordering on absurd. Frankly, I think Disney should have spent about half as much as it did on Everest (even if it worked, assuming budgets are finite--and at Disney in this era they definitely are, as we both know!--the Yeti, an AA only visible for a couple of seconds, was a colossal waste of money), and used the rest of the budget to add a couple of C or D ticket attractions.

The biggest issue I have with Animal Kingdom after the “style over substance” qualm is that, despite its best efforts with the “Natazu” campaign, its attractions are not all that dissimilar to a well-done zoo. The thing is, if the attractions really weren't 'zoo-like', Disney wouldn't have had to utilize the Natazu campaign at all. The attractions could speak for themselves, and there would be a clear divide between it and a zoo. I think running the campaign is an implicit concession that a problem exists, and needs marketing to "fix."

Granted, attractions like Flights of Wonder and Kilimanjaro Safaris are well done “edutainment,” but I believe the rest flounders somewhat as simple ‘walk around looking at animal exhibits’. To me, it lacks the proper execution in those particular attractions to distinguish itself from a plain ‘ole zoo.' Contrast many of these attractions with the Living Seas pavilion (when it opened), TLS took you to a fictional seabase and really sold a story around which the animals were presented. It framed the whole experience really well, and made it, to me at least, stand out so much more than the "walk around and see stuff" methodology of DAK.

In sum, if the park would add some Omnimover attractions and create real entertainment value in the “zoo attractions,” (at least framing them in a manner more fitting of a theme park) I could see it as on par with the other parks. Actually, I think it could easily become the BEST domestic Disney theme park. The infrastructure is there, and the park certainly has the foundation laid in the details, but I think it's several attractions away from being there.

I realize others are likely to disagree, saying I'm missing the point of the park as a non-theme park experience, but the thing is, it IS a theme park. No matter how people might try to re-categorize it to shift expectations, it presents itself as one of the 4 Disney theme parks in Florida, but it doesn't deliver as a theme park should. To be sure, the theme is well-executed, but that's not sufficient for it to pass muster as a great theme park.

The Animal Kingdom is my favorite park, and I agree with everything you've said. Part of what I love about this park are all those details. I've made similar complaints about the park myself, and I hope that the World of Avatar addresses some of these concerns.

I will say that adding an omnimover into Africa or Asia could be quite problematic, largely because I think that it would be incredibly difficult to do this without disrupting all of those details. I've long advocated for a family dark ride in Dinoland just for that reason.
 

Scuttle

Well-Known Member
The Animal Kingdom is my favorite park, and I agree with everything you've said. Part of what I love about this park are all those details. I've made similar complaints about the park myself, and I hope that the World of Avatar addresses some of these concerns.

I will say that adding an omnimover into Africa or Asia could be quite problematic, largely because I think that it would be incredibly difficult to do this without disrupting all of those details. I've long advocated for a family dark ride in Dinoland just for that reason.

AK is also my favorite park. I agree that Africa and Asia really shouldn't be touched with an omnimover. I consider these two lands/continents the best in all of WDW. The theming is perfect in both. Your right though AK, along with HS, desperatly need a family style dark ride and I also hope Avatarland with address this somehow, but I'm not overly optimistic that it will though.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
AK is also my favorite park. I agree that Africa and Asia really shouldn't be touched with an omnimover. I consider these two lands/continents the best in all of WDW. The theming is perfect in both. Your right though AK, along with HS, desperatly need a family style dark ride and I also hope Avatarland with address this somehow, but I'm not overly optimistic that it will though.

I expect a significant thrill ride and a significant family ride. I wouldn't be surprised if there is also a smaller family friendly attraction as well.
 

WDWFigment

Well-Known Member
I expect a significant thrill ride and a significant family ride. I wouldn't be surprised if there is also a smaller family friendly attraction as well.

This sums up why I am really pleased by the Avatar expansion. That, and because I'm sure Cameron has some degree of creative control that will "force" things to be done at a high level throughout.

I've never seen Avatar, so I can't comment on substance or appropriateness of theme, but for the reasons you stated and what I stated, I think this is exactly what DAK needs.

It also doesn't bother me at all that it's not an in-house Disney product. I think in order to even begin to compete with Potter in the mainstream (read: groups of people who don't have over 1,000 posts on Disney fan-forums), Disney needed to draw a big-time franchise. I think ticket sales bear out that Avatar has this potential. Let's just hope it has staying power and that the sequels perform well.
 

Scuttle

Well-Known Member
This sums up why I am really pleased by the Avatar expansion. That, and because I'm sure Cameron has some degree of creative control that will "force" things to be done at a high level throughout.

I've never seen Avatar, so I can't comment on substance or appropriateness of theme, but for the reasons you stated and what I stated, I think this is exactly what DAK needs.

It also doesn't bother me at all that it's not an in-house Disney product. I think in order to even begin to compete with Potter in the mainstream (read: groups of people who don't have over 1,000 posts on Disney fan-forums), Disney needed to draw a big-time franchise. I think ticket sales bear out that Avatar has this potential. Let's just hope it has staying power and that the sequels perform well.

From what I have been hearing from Jim Hill is that WDI didn't even know about this until a few days before it was announced along with joe rohde. He also said that JC has a lot of creative control with this project. Which does get me excited considering JC's history of being a perfectionist and creating new technology for his movies.
 

WDWFigment

Well-Known Member
From what I have been hearing from Jim Hill is that WDI didn't even know about this until a few days before it was announced along with joe rohde. He also said that JC has a lot of creative control with this project. Which does get me excited considering JC's history of being a perfectionist and creating new technology for his movies.

While I don't consider Jim Hill a reputable source for anything except history at this point, I've suspected that this was negotiated at a high level only, and WDI didn't have much prior notice about the project until it was announced. That would explain why there wasn't even any concept art, or any art of any kind besides the Disney Parks logo superimposed on a generic Avatar graphic.
 

Scuttle

Well-Known Member
While I don't consider Jim Hill a reputable source for anything except history at this point, I've suspected that this was negotiated at a high level only, and WDI didn't have much prior notice about the project until it was announced. That would explain why there wasn't even any concept art, or any art of any kind besides the Disney Parks logo superimposed on a generic Avatar graphic.

I agree with you about Jim to a certain level, but he seems to be right on the money on this.
 

WDWFigment

Well-Known Member
It's been truly a pleasure reading each of your 2,489 posts.

I've wondered "aloud" here on the forums a few times whether this person is has just adopted this posting style in an attempt to be funny (which would be somewhat callous, I think), or if there's an actual 'reason' manner in which she posts.

I guess we'll never know, but these are the types of things that keep me up at night! ;)
 

WDWFigment

Well-Known Member
I agree with you about Jim to a certain level, but he seems to be right on the money on this.

Unless there's some sort of external confirmation, you're right, it just seems that he's on the money.

It's quite possible that even if he is on the money, that it's only because he put 1 and 1 together and made an educated guess based on the surrounding circumstances. I've made the same guess based on the circumstances, but that doesn't mean I know what went on (I don't!), it just means I know how to made educated guesses.

Now, I could pull a JT and claim my educated guess (or in his case, drunkenly throwing darts) is me "knowing" something, but I don't play that game.
 

njDizFan

Well-Known Member
I've wondered "aloud" here on the forums a few times whether this person is has just adopted this posting style in an attempt to be funny (which would be somewhat callous, I think), or if there's an actual 'reason' manner in which she posts.

I guess we'll never know, but these are the types of things that keep me up at night! ;)
I'm pretty sure there is "reason" and we should leave it alone
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
TP2000 has an excellent post right above me that sums up the majority of the problem.

Thank you. :wave:

I can sum it up with this; At least Disneyland tries and spends the money and energy to polish and improve what it has. WDW seems far too content to just let Fantasmic! sit there and get very tired looking, hoping most people won't really notice.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
OMG Flotsam and Jetsam look AMAZING! I hope they bring that to WDW! (or have they?? I haven't been since '08). HOLY CRAP.

It is a really neat little effect. They were added at Disneyland during the '09 rehab, the third phase of the three-year seasonal rehabs that noticeably changed the Disneyland version of Fantasmic! from '07 to '09.

It's really a simple concept, but it works very well. The eels are fully articulated and have glowing eyes, fiber optics down their spine, and have moving heads and mouths. The whole contraption rests on riders on jetskis (actually Honda AquaTrax, thanks to Disneyland's parkwide Honda sponsorship), and they weave back and forth along the river during Ursula's introduction scene. They are about 8 feet tall and 33 feet long. They slither right up to the audience too!

Here's a picture of the magic behind the magic. :D

eels.jpg


And here's a quick 30 second YouTube clip of Flotsam and Jetsam in action at Disneyland. While it's just an amateur video, it also gives you a good idea of the clarity that the new HD digital projectors give to the mist screen images at Disneyland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3EbQxDNEk0&feature=related

The Flotsam N' Jetsam and HD Digital projector features have not been added to WDW's version of Fantasmic! since your '08 visit.
 
I was at Fantasmic last Sunday, not this past Sunday.. And sorcerer mickey was missing from my show too... I have seen the show so many times (one of my favorite shows on proeprty) and I knew right away he was missing...

The DoM Crew or the Pixie Dust Brigade are going to be in full force on this one '74... TDo is pathetic and deserve the boot... But hey, what do we know??? We only demand the best that DISNEY has always demanded of themselves... Yet, are deemed Doomers and Gloomers.. The real problem with Disney are the people in the Pixie Dust Brigade, led my self serving Lou "I KISS TDO's BUTT FOR FREEBIES" Mongello....

i was at the show on the 2nd of october too, was really annoyed at there being no mickey. i had some first timers with me and they really enjoyed the show but i just kept on telling them that the fireworks at the end have a reason not just as a show finale but because sorceror mickey is casting the spells at the top.
 

Magenta Panther

Well-Known Member
I'm pretty upset to hear about no Mickey in Fantasmic. Sure hope the glitches are fixed up when I visit the World in December; I've already booked the Brown Derby/Fantasmic combo. :(
 

Jane Doe

Well-Known Member
Yet at TPFKaTD-MGMS, the show goes on no matter how pathetic a performance it may be.

Last night, no Sorceror Mickey and no Dragon (to go along with the myriad of effects the show goes on without on a nightly basis, well when they present it nightly!)

I pay very little to get in with my super cheapo AP. But what of all the Spirits that take a once in a lifetime trip ... or are just saving up for the big annual or bi-annual vacation?

Don't they deserve more?

Shame on TDO.

Pathetic.

This is exactly what my refurbs obsession is about. If the attraction is struggling now in mid-October why are they waiting until January to sort it out? If it's broken then fix it now.
 

whylightbulb

Well-Known Member
I don't know that I'd go that far. But WWoHP is absolutely the most impressive O-town theme park development of this century BY FAR ... and just wait for Phase II ... so big it's going to be in TWO PARKS! (no, I am not kidding! kiss the plastic sharkie bye-bye!:))

UNI is upping their game and I've seen nothing to show Disney even gets they have a problem beyond the Hail Mary for Avatar, which is so far out in terms of being built, I can't even offer a real opinion because so much can/will change.
Hey 74 it's great to see you on here again! Tisk tisk you are not supposed to know about the AMAZING plans for Potter phase 2 and a few other things that will blow the lid off the theme park wars in Orlando. Let me tell you things are looking really good for Universal and Disney better have a few more things up their sleeves. Transformers is also coming and it's looking like it won't be the same exact version from CA Or Sentosa...and I mean that in a good way.
 

whylightbulb

Well-Known Member
Hmm where is whylightbulb when you need him. Maybe too busy making the next groundbreaking attraction across town.

Although I doubt he could relly say anything.
Hey:wave:

I can tell you that the new Potter E-ticket will be mind blowing and will, in my opinion, be better than Forbidden Journey especially from a show standpoint. This of course is assuming that JK and Warner will finally green light the plans. I can also tell you that, as of now, Transformers is coming along with something to replace Fear Factor.
 

Lee

Adventurer
While I don't consider Jim Hill a reputable source for anything except history at this point, I've suspected that this was negotiated at a high level only, and WDI didn't have much prior notice about the project until it was announced. That would explain why there wasn't even any concept art, or any art of any kind besides the Disney Parks logo superimposed on a generic Avatar graphic.

The Avatar deal was pushed by Staggs, on the orders of Iger.
Iger wanted to land a big fish, like Eisner did with Lucas, especially after letting JKR get away.

Some at WDI knew about the deal, but not until it had been decided what park would be involved. They were ordered to come up with something for Avatar in DAK, yes without consulting with Rhode first.
Art exists...but it is extremely "top secret" at this point, and is so blue sky that the final product may well be totally different.
 

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