No Mickey, No Dragon='s LessThanFantasmic

[Jakester]

Hopefully Fantasmic gets the love it deserves soon.

 

[marni1971]

Hopefully Fantasmic gets the love it deserves soon.

Sadly it won't.

 

[janoimagine]

Sadly it won't.

Well thats unfortunate.

 

[Lee]

Sadly it won't.

Truely. It's going to be repaired with some glue and twine, and be expected to run full speed for another 10 years or so.

Alas, poor major refurb...we hardly knew ye...

 

[GLaDOS]

Truely. It's going to be repaired with some glue and twine, and be expected to run full speed for another 10 years or so.

Alas, poor major refurb...we hardly knew ye...

Welcome to WDW in the 2000s.

 

[WDW1974]

Wow! You spend almost a week in O-Town (most of it at WDW, since you obviously hate the place and need an update on all that's wrong!) and a thread blows up and goes into so many directions ... some I'd like to get back to and others better left alone.

But I did speak with a few folks in the know, and it indeed appears Fantasmic's upcoming downtime (as I have suspected and written) will largely see very minimal work done. I was told to expect the show to look 'like Splash Mountain does every time it closes for a month and they fix very little that affects the show (quality)'.

So ... yeah, don't expect much.

Oh, and no Avatar themed show either (and yeah, that is a rumor a few Studios low level CMs apparently want the world to believe).

~GFCers prefer RoE~

 

[WDW1974]

We've discussed this in the past. Most people assume that the likes of Lou Mongello and others get free stuff from Disney all the time. No doubt that he gets preferential treatment as a member of the media, but I do think that you're exaggerating this somewhat.

Excuse me, but when did a small-time lawyer (who I don't believe is licensed in FLA) become a member of the media? And I don't want to make this response about him only to have it disappear into the ether, even though he CHOOSES to be a public figure and craves attention.

He does things that if you, I or anyone else attempted in Disney's parks we'd be escorted out if not arrested. If that isn't showing some sort of official blessing by Disney then I don't know what is.

And I am downplaying what likely is going on because I do KNOW how Disney handles Social Media and the last site I brought the subject up on was more interested in losing traffic than allowing a frank, honest and open discussion about the subject and its ramifications.

One of my co-hosts speaks with Lou regularly (although less regularly now that he moved from Naples) and he claims to have never been gifted anything like park admission or hotel stays from Disney. I do admit that the Disney Fantasy thing seems somewhat suspicious - there were a lot of media members on there and I have to assume that at the very least they got a break on the price.

Disney gives away tens of millions of dollars in free trips, meals, swag every year. And when people pay a so-called 'media rate' ... it is often next to nothing. Would you pay $200 to take the Disney Dream launch cruise? That might as well be free.

I also know that as a member of the "media" I was able to get in free to the D23 Expo, but I was only given one press credential for our site so we still had to pay for my fiance/"photographer". That seems to have been a function of the size of our site though because I know other Disney sites had a much larger "media" presence.

D23 is a bit different animal because it is for the fan community and for fan sites. ... But even on that, Disney obviously had a 'pecking order' and gave more to sites it felt were more valuable to it.

As for Lou and his tours of Disney World, I guess he is legal because he had a Florida Travel License (I'm probably butchering what it actually is) that legally allows him to do these tours. This differs from the tours that Jim Hill did in Disneyland many years ago.

I have to tell you that is pure BS (not on your part, but as an excuse). Disney doesn't allow folks to come in and do business that competes with its business on its property. Do you know how much money I could make (should have seen I put on a show for at HHN's Sunday as he tweeted and texted my every word:ROFLOL? You can have any travel credential and it means nada. If Lou or anyone else is giving tours at WDW, they are breaking Disney policy. That means either Disney doesn't know about it or (which of course is the situation) they opt to look the other way all the while these people say they aren't affiliated or endorsed by TWDC.

Someone's lying because it can't logically be both.

Again, another tease of this Sunday's show - we talk about some of the expansion possibilities for Potter, but it sounds like WDW1974 has more info on this than I do.

My Potter info was a bit muddled as it turns out. Parts of Phases II AND III (yep, there will be) got combined. But Potter IS taking out the shark.

Oh, and look for UNI to go back for its future on two other UNI projects. One will replace a current attraction. One will replace pretty much nothing at all ... these are in addition to Potter additions in BOTH parks AND (as it turns out) Transformers as well.

YES, UNI is very serious about upping its game and continuing its momentum.

~GFC~

 

[asianway]

Excuse me, but when did a small-time lawyer (who I don't believe is licensed in FLA) become a member of the media? And I don't want to make this response about him only to have it disappear into the ether, even though he CHOOSES to be a public figure and craves attention.

He does things that if you, I or anyone else attempted in Disney's parks we'd be escorted out if not arrested. If that isn't showing some sort of official blessing by Disney then I don't know what is.


~GFC~

I keep hearing stories of normal guests who are into photography getting hassled because they come in with a high quality still photo rig, then see these bloggers(wasnt Lou I saw personally) walking around like theyre the 10 o'clock news with video cameras and mikes at any event of note at WDW. It just doesnt seem right....

 

[WDW1974]

The problem, as I see it, is that Animal Kingdom is too contrived, spending too much time on style to the detriment of substance. To illustrate, a while back I read an article (and heard a podcast) discussing all of the hidden details and backstory in Dinoland. This backstory is great, but it is not substitute for quality substance. I think it is more an afterthought, added as somewhat of a ‘smokescreen’ or to explain away why Dino-rama is such an eyesore. I couldn’t care less that it’s an “authentic” eyesore, it’s an eyesore with cheap carnival attractions, nonetheless. Now, Dinoland is a bit of an extreme example, but the case of "style over substance" exists throughout DAK. From the meticulously crafted posters (what was the fake poster budgment for this park, like $200 million?!) and facades in Africa to the seating area in Flame Tree BBQ. I could gush with superlatives over the details in that park. The problem is, these details seem to exist at the expense of substance, which is not acceptable in my opinion.

How can I agree and disagree with you at the same time?

I spent an hour last Friday sitting by the water (just me and two special people) on the patio seating area at a deserted Flame Tree looking across the water at Everest. It was more MAGICal than Space Mountain will ever be. And I don't think for a minute the details are there to cover for a lack of substance. I think the substance is there, but it is a different kind of substance. (Oh, I do love the poster jab ... that come up a lot!)

Substance is taking a safari (and a 5 p.m. one for that matter since people and moan about not seeing animals out unless they take an opening ride) and seeing those giant African cattle so close to the vehicle that I had to move in a bit ... seeing giraffes cavorting ... and both lions pacing around their version of Pride Rock. ... It's soaking in the birds near the water on the trails behind the ToL as the sun goes down.

It's even taking a ride with Disco Yeti.

Does it need more? Of course. (see that's where we agree)

But for some, it won't ever be enough because it isn't MK 2.0. I could go to WDW and spend a week and not visit the MK and have a great trip, but how many others here would say the same?

I think for many, a WDW visit is MK plus whatever ... or perhaps MK and EPCOT and ... whatever.

I have this same concern in other areas of the park. So much thought, time, and effort went in to making the “Disney Details” truly remarkable, but at what cost? The number of quality-themed Disney attractions is seriously lacking, to the point that the park doesn’t offer sufficient entertainment options to justify staying there a full day. DAK lacks any traditional Omnimover dark rides, which I find bordering on absurd. Frankly, I think Disney should have spent about half as much as it did on Everest (even if it worked, assuming budgets are finite--and at Disney in this era they definitely are, as we both know!--the Yeti, an AA only visible for a couple of seconds, was a colossal waste of money), and used the rest of the budget to add a couple of C or D ticket attractions.

Ah, Tom ... but you are falling into that trap that you must have Omnimovers (an ancient ride system) in a Disney park. I have no issue with them. But I don't think they are what's missing. And I still believe DAK is absolutely a full day park (even though I only spent 5 1/2 hours there on Friday). The thing is many people don't want to learn about the animals ... they walk by the tigers ... maybe snap a photo and two minutes later they are on their way. they don't want to look at the birds in the aviary ... they don't want to walk the trails ... they want to 'ride the rides' and leave. I just don't want to see DAK ever become a ride park. Hell, that isn't what the MK is supposed to be (even if it has become a ride and toon park).

As to Everest's budget, I heard something interesting when in O-Town regarding what it allegedly cost and what some internal documentation says it did. I'd really like to know the real deal on that!

The biggest issue I have with Animal Kingdom after the “style over substance” qualm is that, despite its best efforts with the “Natazu” campaign, its attractions are not all that dissimilar to a well-done zoo. The thing is, if the attractions really weren't 'zoo-like', Disney wouldn't have had to utilize the Natazu campaign at all. The attractions could speak for themselves, and there would be a clear divide between it and a zoo. I think running the campaign is an implicit concession that a problem exists, and needs marketing to "fix."

That campaign ended years ago. I wondered about it from the start. The issue is the park is a theme park about animals, a hybrid concept. I have some definite ideas on exactly how to market it. And I'd put them out here, but I do KNOW what Disney pays its consultants and I am not giving them free advice here.

Granted, attractions like Flights of Wonder and Kilimanjaro Safaris are well done “edutainment,” but I believe the rest flounders somewhat as simple ‘walk around looking at animal exhibits’. To me, it lacks the proper execution in those particular attractions to distinguish itself from a plain ‘ole zoo.' Contrast many of these attractions with the Living Seas pavilion (when it opened), TLS took you to a fictional seabase and really sold a story around which the animals were presented. It framed the whole experience really well, and made it, to me at least, stand out so much more than the "walk around and see stuff" methodology of DAK.

In sum, if the park would add some Omnimover attractions and create real entertainment value in the “zoo attractions,” (at least framing them in a manner more fitting of a theme park) I could see it as on par with the other parks. Actually, I think it could easily become the BEST domestic Disney theme park. The infrastructure is there, and the park certainly has the foundation laid in the details, but I think it's several attractions away from being there.

I realize others are likely to disagree, saying I'm missing the point of the park as a non-theme park experience, but the thing is, it IS a theme park. No matter how people might try to re-categorize it to shift expectations, it presents itself as one of the 4 Disney theme parks in Florida, but it doesn't deliver as a theme park should. To be sure, the theme is well-executed, but that's not sufficient for it to pass muster as a great theme park.

Perhaps, I should have waited to respond ... because I agree with so much of what you say ... just not where you wind up in the end. ... Although to be fair, I am not sure what in Central Florida is a great theme park these days. I think there are a bunch of really good parks (to varying degrees), but I'm not sure any are truly great.

But I think we agree that DAK needs more. Joe Rohde has been saying so since the 1990s, so we aren't alone. I just would not have gone in the blue alien direction myself.

~GFC~

 

[WDW1974]

I keep hearing stories of normal guests who are into photography getting hassled because they come in with a high quality still photo rig, then see these bloggers(wasnt Lou I saw personally) walking around like theyre the 10 o'clock news with video cameras and mikes at any event of note at WDW. It just doesnt seem right....

I personally am tired of anyone -- whether they are a blogger, a local no-lifer who thinks living is visiting theme parks 4-6 days a week, a tourist, regular fan etc -- bringing in all kinds of equipment ... or riding PoC with their iPhones recording the entire thing etc.

It absolutely takes me out of the moment and makes me glad I don't carry firearms. How about actually living in the moment and experiencing the place?

But when Disney started letting these bloggers/podcasters/webmasters act like de facto media/Disney PR, it definitely was kicked up a notch. And I predict a day when there will be some ugly incidents. I can accept Disney may film me when I am in ITS parks. I go in there knowing that. But if some podcaster tapes me or a blogger takes my image and puts it on their site, well, it ain't gonna be pretty (not me, I'm plenty pretty:wave but for them).

I had a VERY enjoyable trip to Orlando (and didn't even hate WDW THAT much:drevil ... and part of that was not seeing one blogger/podcaster/webmaster etc. Very happy about that.

~GFC~

 

[WDW1974]

Hey 74 it's great to see you on here again! Tisk tisk you are not supposed to know about the AMAZING plans for Potter phase 2 and a few other things that will blow the lid off the theme park wars in Orlando. Let me tell you things are looking really good for Universal and Disney better have a few more things up their sleeves. Transformers is also coming and it's looking like it won't be the same exact version from CA Or Sentosa...and I mean that in a good way.

It's MAGICal to be here. Seriously!

Or maybe it's just that I had my best O-Town trip overall of 2011 (despite summer-like yucky weather).

It's also good to see you here Mr. Bulb:lol:

I already corrected my earlier postings a bit. I have been told some things and also asked to 'please keep this off the boards' which I am doing. I was also told the Transformers deal, which surprised me because hadn't heard anything on that front and kinda assumed it wasn't happening (especially in light of everything else UNI has planned).

I am even excited about next summer at UNI:animwink:.

I wish Disney had more up its sleeves for WDW, but I just am not hearing/seeing it. ... Well, we do have some of the NEW, NEW, NEW AND DID WE SAY TIMELESS UNLIKE THAT FLASH IN THE PAN POTTER BRAT! Fantasyland and Splitsville coming in 2012. I just want to see more and fresh.

BTW, am really hoping to get to Sentosa the next time I'm in Asia.

~GFC~

 

[WDW1974]

I think it's great that some people love Pocahontas, but unfortunately, product sales or even any quantifiable measure of popularity don't back this up. Even if Pocahontas were the most popular Disney princess, the movie's time in the spotlight during this vignette-style show would be incredibly disproportionate. It's clear that DHS' Pocahontasmic--I mean Fantasmic--was created during a time when the movie was still fresh, and hasn't been updated.

As for the substance of this news, I think (I think I've posted here like 5 times without commenting on it once) it's terrible that the show goes on like this, but I'm just glad it doesn't affect me. I won't watch this show anywhere but at Disneyland now. WDW's version is a joke by comparison.

I admit that I am a BIG fan of the film, but I agree that it really doesn't fit at all and in fact much of the show doesn't work for me because it's a WDFA Greatest Hits 1991-1998 show (and I liked all of those films, ALL). It plays like a tired commercial. Versus say WoC where you do have Pocahontas used in 'Just Around the Riverbend' and 'Colors of the Wind' but they are shorter and they just fit.

And I largely avoid Fantasmic at WDW, but sometimes it is the only option for night entertainment. But, yeah, it is no DL ... and I am drooling to see the new TDS show.

~GFC~

 

[WDW1974]

You'd go to HKDL or DLP before TDR? Sad day.

Nope.

You misunderstood.

I'd go to TDR before any of the other international resorts now. Then DLP ... then HKDL.

But I love them all. Have you been to any?

~GFC Plus One~

 

[WDW1974]

I am sure Disney management faces many challenges.


But that's none of my problem. I am not into charity. If I pay you top dollar for a premium product, then I am not interested in the excuses why you can't deliver. None of my problem.
If I pay you to fix my plumbing, then you fix my plumbing, period. You do not bore me with sob stories about how difficult it is to be a plumber nowadays and how you can't deliver but that you will take my money regardless. Uh-uh, nope.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

And Disney isn't exactly hurting. I was planning on starting another thread, but didn't realize how much fun I missed while at WDW and UNI.

But the thread was going to start by talking about just how much money Disney (and UNI) is making right now. How I have NEVER seen crowds at the Food and Wine Festival that come close to what I saw this Saturday (think JUly 4th or Christmas Week) with 20 minute lines to buy tiny samples at HUGE markups ... at how Gartner is in with a HUGE convention and spending like it's 2005 including renting TPFKaTD-MGMS for a night (not to mention getting Bon Jovi in for a private concert) ... and Price Waterhouse Cooper with another huge contingent renting out Dinoland etc ...

Disney ain't hurting at all. Maybe they aren't making as much as management would like (or the Wall Street beast), but they are having one helluva October.

~GFC~

 

[Magenta Panther]

I've been reading this thread and especially enjoying the statements from the really knowledgeable people here, like whylightbulb and WDW1974. I'm thrilled to read about the Potter expansion, because the current attractions are so amazing. But it saddens me to read about the out-and-out neglect some of WDW's attractions are suffering from. Why is this happening?

I first saw Fantasmic about 6 years ago, and I was blown away. Wonderful effects, great story, and the audience was cheering by the end of it. I have seen Fantasmic every time I visit WDW ever since (which makes 3 times so far). I don't remember seeing any differences or any malfunctions. But now they seem rampant and semi-permanent.

AGAIN, WHY IS THIS HAPPENING? Why are big bucks being spent on a stupid Avatar land while so many existing attractions go begging?

Are the parks being run like the studio is now - by a bunch of thick-headed, thick-fingered suits that treat the properties like cash cows instead of creative incubators and an expression of Walt's continuing legacy? Doesn't ANYONE in the current Disney organization CARE? It ticks me off that Iger is allowing all this to happen, PLUS he's thinking of selling the parks off to an outside company. Because it wouldn't be as profitable to give a damn and put some real investment into them.

I tell you what - if I owned any Disney stock, I'd show up at an investor meeting and rip Iger a new one. His ears would be ringing by the time I got through with him.

If I'm speaking a lot of ignorant falsehoods, somebody please tell me so. In this instance, I'd much rather be proven ignorant than proven right.

 

[Expo_Seeker40]

You'd have to act fast to see Iger, that man has stars and stripes in his radar.

 

[TP2000]

How about actually living in the moment and experiencing the place?

Oh, now I suddenly know why I've always enjoyed your contributions here! We share a brain when it comes to how to behave in a theme park, and a really good Disney theme park at that, and when to turn the iPhone off and enjoy the world. :wave:

 

[TP2000]

Sadly it won't.

Truely. It's going to be repaired with some glue and twine, and be expected to run full speed for another 10 years or so.

Alas, poor major refurb...we hardly knew ye...

Well, that's a shame. A missed opportunity, to be sure.

And yet the Disneyland show, after it's multi-phase and multi-month rehabs over the 2008-10 timeframe, looks fresh and crisp and brand new. Surely this "One Disney" thing could have brought economies of scale and West Coast knowledge out to the WDW version. Why didn't that happen? Is TDO really that insular? :veryconfu

 

[GLaDOS]

Oh, and look for UNI to go back for its future on two other UNI projects.

I see what you did there.

 

[PorterRedkey]

Is Mickey's lift for Fantasmic going to stay broken until the rehab in Jan.? :veryconfu

I will be going down to the World in mid- December for the first time in 20 year (1991) and it will be my first time seeing the show. I sure hope they get it working before then.