No fastpasses available today?

[DougK]

I will get to judge all of this for myself in a few days, and I want to remain open-minded, but I really wish this FP+ thing would just go away. I know it won't but I can dream, Disney says so!

 

[Jeffxz]

Interesting... thanks for sharing. Did you see the line being held up at all, or was it just that many people queued up in the FP line?

If they weren't being held up... that would infer Disney has made two changes simultaneously. 1) Significantly increased the # of FPs in the pool while simultaneously 2) Keeping the # of paper FPs to a bare minimum vs FP+

I fully expected #2.. but to do #1 and increase the FP to that level just seems absolutely foolish. People will see no value in the FP and just cry about how all lines are long at Disney in that kind of scenario. Hopefully they are analyzing this and will adjust. A FP line that isn't perceived as 'fast' will really hurt customer sentiment.

The queue was actually backed up that far, there wasn't any delay in reading the bands. Seeing that there is a cm dedicated to directing guests to the back of the line seems to indicate that this is a known issue.

I have a feeling that the numbers of FP+ for this ride were increased and the posted wait times are artificially inflated to discourage non FP riders.

 

[Jeffxz]

I think the scanning of the bands has a role in this, personally. One can only hope they don't get stuck behind a group during the cheerleader competitions who think the bands look way cooler on their ankles...

I'm going to disagree with this. I've been paying a lot of attention to this as I expected this to be the case, but I have seen no evidence of it. The bands turn Mickey green in about 2 seconds. I have seen the occasional blue light indicating an error, but the cm does a quick reset and things are moving again in a few seconds. As long as guests are using both sides it runs pretty smooth.

The biggest holdup of the FP line is still people blocking the entrance waiting on their time to get in.

 

[flynnibus]

I had to go back and double check too. Reedy Creek will take out tax free bonds that will cost Florida and Federal Tax payers $85 million dollars to construct two parking garages.

If RC is issuing bonds - why do you say this will cost fl and fed tax payers?

 

[notnothin]

I'm going to disagree with this. I've been paying a lot of attention to this as I expected this to be the case, but I have seen no evidence of it. The bands turn Mickey green in about 2 seconds. I have seen the occasional blue light indicating an error, but the cm does a quick reset and things are moving again in a few seconds. As long as guests are using both sides it runs pretty smooth.

But isn't this longer than it would take for a CM to glance at traditional paper FP? It seems like these extra seconds would add up quickly over time.

 

[flynnibus]

I'd be surprised if RC would grant Disney permission to charge guests, especially FL residents to park in garages that were built with bonds taken out by RC.

It would not be out of the ordinary for a gov body to pay for something and then lease the facility to a private operator - who is free to charge for its use. See most municipal sports stadiums in the country

Rcid is not going to want to operate a parking lot division. They'll contract it out... Like to twdc

 

[Gabe1]

If RC is issuing bonds - why do you say this will cost fl and fed tax payers?

For a multitude of reasons. Bond are not grants. The bond funds are not interest free though low interest and the bonds must be repaid. There will be state bonds and federal bonds that need to be repaid. They will not be repaid by Disney but by Ready Creek a governmental body of WDW, Bay Lake and Lake Buena Vista that is supported by the collection of tax payer dollars.

This will be a joint project with the Feds, State and RC. i4 is a Federal Road and will incur expenses as will the state as the Feds portion out their responsibilities, like moving and relocating infrastructure, some liability being placed on the Feds, State and RC. But when all is said and done where do the Feds, State and RC get their funds, tax dollars. This case from FL and Fed tax payers. RC bonds when sold for this project will likely be an attractive investment for investors that buy bonds. Unlike bonds in Detroit, that they are attempting to default upon, the likelihood of RC defaulting and not being able to repay those bonds is unlikely. You would need WDW basically to go offline completely for that to happen and then likely the Feds would step in like they did with the auto industry.

 

[Gabe1]

It would not be out of the ordinary for a gov body to pay for something and then lease the facility to a private operator - who is free to charge for its use. See most municipal sports stadiums in the country

Rcid is not going to want to operate a parking lot division. They'll contract it out... Like to twdc

I'm sure Disney will mostly be in charge of of general maintenance and some security but RC, the Feds and State will continue to maintain the physical structures over the decades from the off ramp fly overs to the garages. Sure the garages will also be policed by the Sheriff and somewhat by Disney security. RC is so different than any other governmental body, it has always been governed by those elected that pretty much favor Disney, their bread and butter. There is a long history to RC, how residents are tapped going into elections. Where what you say is a reasonable thought for any other governmental body other than RC. I do not know of any other governmental body that was legislated like RC. RC is fascinating and its history and function read more like a fiction novel than history of American Government. Only Disney could pass this through the FL legislators 40 years ago.

But Disney pull in forming Governmental bodies did come to an end. Maybe you will remember the city Celebration. Disney thought they could create their private city, their own government and their own schools.
The reality was Disney could not pull off what they wanted there and settled for what it became and ultimately pulled away from Celebration. The real slap in the face to Disney was when they learned they could not pull off manipulating government the same way they did in the swamps 40 years ago as legislatures were no longer luring Disney, they already have the big bucks Disney brings to the entire state through tax collection. Disney wanted to Celebration to have their own School District and it was to be a cutting edge district for their own residents. Through many court battles this didn't ultimately happen. Schools were built but not under a Celebration School District banner but in the existing Osceola School District and those schools are governed by Osceola BOE. RC tried but could not name a street in Celebration Main St because there was already in the Osceola and law states street names can't be duplicated. So even though Disney tried to execute the power they had with RC Disney has learned that they only can flex that muscle so far.

 

[ChrisM]

I think the scanning of the bands has a role in this, personally. One can only hope they don't get stuck behind a group during the cheerleader competitions who think the bands look way cooler on their ankles...

I wouldn't complain. Sounds like an E ticket in itself.

 

[flynnibus]

For a multitude of reasons. Bond are not grants. The bond funds are not interest free though low interest and the bonds must be repaid. There will be state bonds and federal bonds that need to be repaid

Yes - repaid from RCID's incomes - which are gathered from it's 'constituents' aka Disney. Disney (and it's leasees) will still be the one paying for those bonds - not FL or Fed tax payers in general. The state and fed will be responsible for their

They will not be repaid by Disney but by Ready Creek a governmental body of WDW, Bay Lake and Lake Buena Vista that is supported by the collection of tax payer dollars.

'tax payer dollars'?? Tax payers of RCID - which for all intensive purposes is Disney - not the general population. 95% of RCID's income comes from the taxes it levies in the district (property tax, utility, etc). These revenues are paid for by those who operate inside the district.. which are almost exclusively Disney and it's partners. Even from their recent bond activity you have statements like this:

The tax base is highly concentrated, dominated by Disney and its related subsidiaries which accounted for approximately 89% of the $7.3 billion fiscal 2013 tax base. Disney has comprised at least 80% of district taxable values throughout the district's existence

RCID doesn't leeve taxes that you as a guest are paying directly. The tax burden is paid for by those operating in the district.

You keep talking like because RCID - it's the FL tax payers that ultimately pay for this. That's not true - it's the district's tax payers that pay for it.. which is essentially Disney. Doing it through RCID is a vehicle that makes it better for Disney.

This will be a joint project with the Feds, State and RC. i4 is a Federal Road and will incur expenses as will the state as the Feds portion out their responsibilities, like moving and relocating infrastructure, some liability being placed on the Feds, State and RC. But when all is said and done where do the Feds, State and RC get their funds, tax dollars

In that sense, it's not really any different than any other major project that involves public roads. Proffers do not always pay for all expenses - people negotiate shared assumption of cost under the guise of joint long term benefit.

 

[flynnibus]

I'm sure Disney will mostly be in charge of of general maintenance and some security but RC, the Feds and State will continue to maintain the physical structures over the decades from the off ramp fly overs to the garages

Again... leasing. RCID would budget long term capital reserves for the infrastructure.. which it would fund through it's leasing agreement. The lease would be paid by Disney.. and funded through Disney's activities.. which could easily include parking revenues. The chain is longer, the color of money changes, and how it's taxed and claimed changes... but the source of the money is basically the same.

It all boils down to - just the fact that RCID funded the infrastructure - that doesn't preclude someone for charging for using it. But IMO - I doubt Disney will charge for the parking unless they change DTD away from being a shopping destination. If they start doing things like park parking, etc.. sure.. but as long as they treat it as only the DTD shopping parking.. IMHO I don't think they'll charge.

 

[asianway]

Yes - repaid from RCID's incomes - which are gathered from it's 'constituents' aka Disney. Disney (and it's leasees) will still be the one paying for those bonds - not FL or Fed tax payers in general. The state and fed will be responsible for their



'tax payer dollars'?? Tax payers of RCID - which for all intensive purposes is Disney - not the general population. 95% of RCID's income comes from the taxes it levies in the district (property tax, utility, etc). These revenues are paid for by those who operate inside the district.. which are almost exclusively Disney and it's partners. Even from their recent bond activity you have statements like this:



RCID doesn't leeve taxes that you as a guest are paying directly. The tax burden is paid for by those operating in the district.

You keep talking like because RCID - it's the FL tax payers that ultimately pay for this. That's not true - it's the district's tax payers that pay for it.. which is essentially Disney. Doing it through RCID is a vehicle that makes it better for Disney.



In that sense, it's not really any different than any other major project that involves public roads. Proffers do not always pay for all expenses - people negotiate shared assumption of cost under the guise of joint long term benefit.

The bonds are tax free, so the investors wont pay income tax in the interest income, creating a higher effective rate of return.

But one aspect that I think has been overstated is the sales tax exemption for RCID on this project - a parking garage is basically concrete structure, most of the materials to construct would be exempt from taxes no matter who builds it.

 

[flynnibus]

The bonds are tax free, so the investors wont pay income tax in the interest income, creating a higher effective rate of return.

Yeah - all of it basically makes a more attractive path to funnel spending through.. Disney wasn't stupid when they set this all up

I wonder if there are any limits on TWDC holding RCID bonds??

 

[Tigger1988]

Eek! Doesn't sound good for TSM at all. No wonder they wanted the GAC users out of that line. So they've royally screwed up FP+ for TSM? Awesome!

I guess there goes my plan to celebrate the new year with a ride. In other news, is the fact I'm going to Disney with my DVC points and have a Premium Annual Pass the reason I haven't gotten an invite to try FP+ for my NYE trip? Should I not be getting something by now? I check into Saratoga on Dec 29. Reservation is there in my MDE account along with my party, but it won't let me even look at FP+.

I am staying with DVC points and have a Premium AP voucher and was able to get MBs and FP+. It'll show up in your MDE eventually.

 

[Gabe1]

Yes - repaid from RCID's incomes - which are gathered from it's 'constituents' aka Disney. Disney (and it's leasees) will still be the one paying for those bonds - not FL or Fed tax payers in general. The state and fed will be responsible for their



'tax payer dollars'?? Tax payers of RCID - which for all intensive purposes is Disney - not the general population. 95% of RCID's income comes from the taxes it levies in the district (property tax, utility, etc). These revenues are paid for by those who operate inside the district.. which are almost exclusively Disney and it's partners. Even from their recent bond activity you have statements like this:



RCID doesn't leeve taxes that you as a guest are paying directly. The tax burden is paid for by those operating in the district.

You keep talking like because RCID - it's the FL tax payers that ultimately pay for this. That's not true - it's the district's tax payers that pay for it.. which is essentially Disney. Doing it through RCID is a vehicle that makes it better for Disney.


In that sense, it's not really any different than any other major project that involves public roads. Proffers do not always pay for all expenses - people negotiate shared assumption of cost under the guise of joint long term benefit.

It doesn't matter. RC is Governmental Taxing Body. While WDW is the major business and property it is 85% of RC. Other tax payers in FL pay into RC through billing permits, utility taxes and a plutra of other misc. taxes. WDW and other RC Dist tax payers also pay approximately $125 million dollars in taxes to both Orange and Osceola Counties to offset their assigned expenses to RC. You just can't limit taxes to property tax levies.

It doesn't matter where they garner their tax dollars from. However, it is correct Disney more than any other area of RC receives so many benefits from those tax dollars. The IRS this year has cracked down on governments in Florida that use Tax Free monies and go into debt to finance private entities projects. This decision can and will likely in the future impact Disney when it comes to structures like parking garages, the roads should fly. But the IRS would likely not let fly Disney then charging and profiting from those RC parking garages. Though RC was given almost total autonomy of governing over WDW, Disney still must follow standard governmental proceedings. That is why they are in the mess of Disney Springs they are and had to pitch Hyperion. Government, not Disney decided Disney didn't have adequate parking and the expansion would put further undo stress on local, state and federal roads and highways and infrastructure along with the employees needed to maintain and service the area. No matter who pays taxes the state and the Feds still will half to take monies from their budgets forever to maintain i-4 and other roads not owned by WDW along with their infrastructure of sewers and lighting. RC has over 125 miles of major roads to maintain and sewer and water run off in the entire District, not just WDW.

This is why many bulked at other FL businesses and residents along with the counties involved with WDW bulked at giving back the taxes collected from WDW to fund the fly overs, pedestrian walkways and parking garages to a company that had record breaking profits of 5.7 billion that they requested and received parking garages etc., to be able to expand their private business. Universal does not receive proportionally the percentage of tax dollar contributions that WDW does. RC is hedging that Disney Springs with Parking Garages for tourists and locals will increase the amount of tax revenue over the current DTD to cover all of the bond expendture expenses. IMO that is a gamble on RC's part, Disney puts great spins during their presentations.
Just look at the funding that went into the Disney World Speedway from RC, for roads and infrastructure. Residents make the argument why not contribute more to Reedy Creek School? Why not give money to the HIlton for up grades to their building? Why not pay for new pumps on the gas stations in Reedy Creek? They all generate tax revenue within the district.

 

[Gabe1]

Again... leasing. RCID would budget long term capital reserves for the infrastructure.. which it would fund through it's leasing agreement. The lease would be paid by Disney.. and funded through Disney's activities.. which could easily include parking revenues. The chain is longer, the color of money changes, and how it's taxed and claimed changes... but the source of the money is basically the same.

It all boils down to - just the fact that RCID funded the infrastructure - that doesn't preclude someone for charging for using it. But IMO - I doubt Disney will charge for the parking unless they change DTD away from being a shopping destination. If they start doing things like park parking, etc.. sure.. but as long as they treat it as only the DTD shopping parking.. IMHO I don't think they'll charge.

Where are you coming up with that Disney will lease the parking garages from RC? I've never seen that anywhere.

 

[BroganMc]

Check MDE as often as possible, we were able to configure our bands around day 61 (10/21) and check in at DBW on the 21st, FP+ was made available at day 60 or 10/30 for your checkin date. I was getting worried that they were going to stop the testing during the holiday week but much to my surprise it popped up on Monday! Other guests have been able to link their PAP to MDE, I would make sure it is done and shows in MDE as far in advance as possible and check MDE daily until the Configure MB option shows up in the MDE menu.

I wish you the best of luck!

Thanks, I'll follow your advice. Best time to check on whether MDE has the correct ID numbers for the rest of my party. It is showing AP tickets for them but I know I didn't enter anything for them. I figured it was auto-entered when they purchased them and we converted the paper PAPs to RFIDs last trip.

 

[flynnibus]

Where are you coming up with that Disney will lease the parking garages from RC? I've never seen that anywhere.

I'm putting that out there as a likely option. Just because RCID is building them - doesn't mean RCID will be the only one who would operate them. Your original post basically said because it's RCID (gov) built, it is unlikely that RCID would let Disney charge for them. Leasing them is a model where that could happen - so it's not unrealistic.

Given that RCID doesn't have an existing division or staff to do this type of work, it makes sense that they would contract it out or outright lease the parking facilities. There are scenarios where it makes more sense for Disney (and hence.. RCID) to lease the garages as the model to fund and operate them.

Long and short of it... just because RCID is the one building them - that doesn't limit how they are operated.

 

[flynnibus]

It doesn't matter. RC is Governmental Taxing Body. While WDW is the major business and property it is 85% of RC. Other tax payers in FL pay into RC through billing permits, utility taxes and a plutra of other misc. taxes

No - that's not how it works. The building permits, utlitity taxes, etc goto the taxing entity.. not redistributed to other entities horizontally. These are local taxes.. they are collected and spent by the local authority. Your Orange county sales tax does not goto RCID, nor your Orange County permit fees. RCID sees none of that money. RCID gets it's money from taxing efforts INSIDE the district. Since effectively no 'other tax players in FL' operate inside the district... you are not funding RCID. Your money ultimately ends up in RCID through the spending you do with entities within the district (Disney) - but that's operating cost of the business, not taxes to you.

WDW and other RC Dist tax payers also pay approximately $125 million dollars in taxes to both Orange and Osceola Counties to offset their assigned expenses to RC. You just can't limit taxes to property tax levies.

Yes, because those are county taxes that apply to RCID (County is a higher level than the improvement district). RCID is not excluded from all authority of the counties, they only have exclusion for very specific things. This reference is to taxes paid to the counties under the county's taxing authority (such as occupancy/hotel taxes, sales tax, etc). That does not mean tax funds were redistributed - just that the county still has the ability to lieve taxes within RCID's boundaries... but that does not mean the inverse.

It doesn't matter where they garner their tax dollars from. However, it is correct Disney more than any other area of RC receives so many benefits from those tax dollars. The IRS this year has cracked down on governments in Florida that use Tax Free monies and go into debt to finance private entities projects

1 - Sure it matter where the tax dollars come from relative to your comments about who is taking the burden of these projects
2 - Don't overstate the case of the IRS challenging that developer. That's a long way from the RCID situation.

 

[Pixie VaVoom]

No - that's not how it works. The building permits, utlitity taxes, etc goto the taxing entity.. not redistributed to other entities horizontally. These are local taxes.. they are collected and spent by the local authority. Your Orange county sales tax does not goto RCID, nor your Orange County permit fees. RCID sees none of that money. RCID gets it's money from taxing efforts INSIDE the district. Since effectively no 'other tax players in FL' operate inside the district... you are not funding RCID. Your money ultimately ends up in RCID through the spending you do with entities within the district (Disney) - but that's operating cost of the business, not taxes to you.



Yes, because those are county taxes that apply to RCID (County is a higher level than the improvement district). RCID is not excluded from all authority of the counties, they only have exclusion for very specific things. This reference is to taxes paid to the counties under the county's taxing authority (such as occupancy/hotel taxes, sales tax, etc). That does not mean tax funds were redistributed - just that the county still has the ability to lieve taxes within RCID's boundaries... but that does not mean the inverse.



1 - Sure it matter where the tax dollars come from relative to your comments about who is taking the burden of these projects
2 - Don't overstate the case of the IRS challenging that developer. That's a long way from the RCID situation.

Can you guys move to another thread, please - this is not germaine to the topic. Thanks