No fastpasses available today?

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

I respectfully disagree.

ADRs? In many many trips, I have had a total of 2 ADRs (still manage to have some nice table service meals though). But table service dining is not the main draw at WDW, the attractions are. ADRs are not necessary to have a great time, but the big attractions are.

Monitoring specials and discounts? Many of these are dubious values or so insignificant as to not be worth the time.

On-line check in? Never used it, never seemed to provide much value.

However, I will give you EMH as a reason to sometimes do some planning (although we've used it for planning which park to avoid as much as for which park to attend ).

But ultimately there is nothing to compare to the sense of adventure you get by waking up and only deciding then which park or part of the World to explore that day.

You may book only 2 ADRs but many people are up at the crack of dawn to book Be Our Guest, Ohana, and etc.
I saved $1200 on my most recent trip using discounts... pretty significant if you ask me.
Everytime I've used online check in, my room has been ready and waiting. Everytime someone new comes on these boards, the first thing people say is to "get to planning, book your ADRs, and blah blah blah"

 

[draybook]

The parks were deserted

This is the only part I had to disagree with from our experience. We were on-site 9/20-9/27 and the only time it seemed "not busy" was most days before 10:30 am. After that all bets were off.

 

[flynnibus]

There's no need to guess. That's exactly correct. Look at the one in DCA that doesn't have FP. The line hovers around 45 to 60 minutes.

We don't come near the one at WDW because of it.

Not really. No fp can increase people's tolerance for wait times. They know they have no other choice than to wait so when pressed... They will get into a line with a long wait.

People will queue up in a 120min wait now... That tolerance would only go up.

Because tsmm is a ride with high repeat ability - if the line were short... They would get right back in line. Demand still exceeds supply. And with higher tolerances, waits can grow.

The biggest factor in how big a line will grow is people's tolerance - not the attractions capacity. Capacity controls how difficult it is to get in the constrained scenario but how big the line will grow to is dictated by people's willingness to wait.

Dca is less because of the park it is in.

 

[flynnibus]

Thank you @RSoxNo1 REAL DATA for a change!

Also... Incomplete data. What were the crowd levels... What capacity were the attractions running at... And the invisible variables... Distribution...

 

[orky8]

There's no need to guess. That's exactly correct. Look at the one in DCA that doesn't have FP. The line hovers around 45 to 60 minutes.

We don't come near the one at WDW because of it.

This completely ignores the differences between the two parks -- namely that TSMM is the ONLY family friendly ride at DHS whereas DCA has a dozen rides that appeals to this demographic (not to mention more rides to appeal to all demographics). People at DHS are willing to wait 100+ minutes for TSMM because there is nothing else to do. People at DCA are not. How do you explain Soarin? Soarin at DCA has FP, yet you NEVER see 100+ minute waits because you would be crazy to wait that long in a park that offers so many other things to do (where as Epcot has fewer attractions by the day).

You and FordExplorer are ignoring the human element and pretending the waits are only a matter of ride capacity and attendance -- they are not. FP does nothing to ride capacity but allow certain people a short wait. The standby line then becomes a factor of how many people want to ride without a FP AND (and this is key!) how long they are willing to wait to do so. This is simple supply and demand economics. Because there is a line, we know demand (people wanting to ride at any moment) is exceeding supply (capacity). The standby line then becomes a factor how how long people are willing to wait to ride. Every person has a point at which the value is no longer there for them (some are willing to wait 15, some 75, some 150).

FP is the band-aid. The real problem is that WDW is short on attractions and hasn't built anything of real substance in 10+ years. THAT is why the waits are ridiculous.

 

[Nubs70]

Also... Incomplete data. What were the crowd levels... What capacity were the attractions running at... And the invisible variables... Distribution...

Suffer from analysis paralysis much?

 

[danv3]

Scrap this FP+ crap; keep the MagicBands for charging, park entry and room keys; and just build some more freakin' rides.

QFT.

 

[danv3]

Quick thought: I wonder if FP+ will encourage people to "take it easy" on vacation and sleep in/arrive late in greater numbers since they "already have rides reserved" before the day begins. This might make getting to the park at RD even more beneficial and might even extend the early morning time frame when rides have quick access.

That would be a silver lining for me if it works out. I'm always going to be at a park at rope drop hitting headline/major attractions. You can really get a lot done in the first hour or two! My FP+ reservations will (to the extent available) be for headliners in my second park of the day, post-afternoon break.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Quick thought: I wonder if FP+ will encourage people to "take it easy" on vacation and sleep in/arrive late in greater numbers since they "already have rides reserved" before the day begins. This might make getting to the park at RD even more beneficial and might even extend the early morning time frame when rides have quick access.

It's a good thought: hoping that morning lines might be shorter with FP+ than FP. (It must be a good thought; I've had the same one!) However, the problem with FP+ is that they are being distributed immediately for opening, unlike the old system which didn't start distributing FP until a bit later, typically beginning 45 to 60 minutes after park opening. Thus, right from opening, the majority of each attraction's capacity is immediately dedicated to FP+.

Think of it this way; I want to sleep in but the only FP+ time I could get for Toy Story Mania (TSM) was at 9:00 - 10 AM. My choices are to either sleep in and wait 100 minutes for TSM later in the day or reserve the 9-10 AM timeslot. I fully expect there will be a sufficient number of guests that go with the 9:00 AM FP+ selection so that the net effect is that TSM's Standby line by 9:30 AM already will be really long.

I dislike FP+ because of all the preplanning involved. I really dislike FP+ because they are putting it on numerous attractions that really don't require it, causing those Standby lines to needlessly grow longer. (Pirates and HM are the two most obvious examples of good attractions that shouldn't have FP+ but there are lots of lesser attractions that absolutely should not have FP+.) However, I think I could at least stomach FP+ if WDW had a "FP+ free zone", say during the first 2 hours of park opening. In other words, make this a time when no one could get a FP+.

Think of what it would be like without FP+ at the MK until 11 AM. Guests could get some series touring in, probably finish an entire land, before being slowed down by FP+.

It's never going to happen.

First, corporate Disney wants as many preplanning as possible. Financially, it's better for corporate Disney to hand out as many FP+ as possible to, hopefully, get more into the theme parks.

Second, once word got out on how much faster it was to tour the parks during the "FP+ free zone", guests would start requesting for even more time without FP+, which would bring Disney's $2B investment to its knees.

Some will enjoy the preplanning required by FP+. I suspect most will not. The net effect is that more guests will be unhappy with FP+ than they would be with completely getting rid of FP/FP+.

However, eliminating FP/FP+ is not financially good for corporate Disney. FP+ is a way to get guests to lock in every day of their vacations in a WDW theme park, rather than drive up I-4 and enjoy all those really cool attractions being built at Universal.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Demand for those attractions is difficult to correlate with their counterparts in California because they are located in a park with a much higher attraction density.

Test Track and Soarin have issues because for many people going into the park they are the only rides there. TSMM has issues because DHS has a severe lack of rides for younger guests.

You're absolutely right, but case in point - If I'm getting a better experience in California, I'm going there instead.

 

[RSoxNo1]

As others have pointed out, there are far more rides for younger children at California Adventure than at MGM.
Also, MGM sees over two million more guests per year than DCA does.

Seeing as how the standby queue already touches 110 minutes on a lot of days, I don't think 2 hours is too far fetched.

DHS had 2.2 million more guests than DCA in 2012. I'm guessing the number is closer this year, but the attraction lineup in DCA is much better. Without 3-4 more attractions at DHS, it's hard to see Toy Story's wait time dropping at DHS.

 

[RSoxNo1]

The problem is TDO feels that they have such an irresistable product that people will deal with any amount of pain that TDO inflicts on them, TDO is wrong on many levels how much and how they recover from this will be interesting to say the least.

Prior to these recent Fastpass issues, I was 50/50 for going to WDW in January. All I would have to pay for is my plane ticket and rental car. I have a place to stay and my annual pass would still be valid. If I'm essentially told that as an offsite guest with an annual pass, I won't have the same access to the Fastpass system, I don't see the value of going. Read that again, I have nothing that I need to pay to Disney in order to go into the park and I'm failing to see the value.

They can call me a leech because I'm staying offsite and using an annual pass but for the last 40 years this was acceptable and there was no preferential treatment given. This has changed and it's B.S.

 

[RSoxNo1]

@RSoxNo1 you are a voice of reason here, I'd like to think that they are isolated incidents but troubles with AP's especially the Premium and Premier levels etc - Right now I don't know WHAT to think other than this is a slow moving train wreck.

I can agree with that.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Quick thought: I wonder if FP+ will encourage people to "take it easy" on vacation and sleep in/arrive late in greater numbers since they "already have rides reserved" before the day begins. This might make getting to the park at RD even more beneficial and might even extend the early morning time frame when rides have quick access.

Well, it sounds like day of Fastpass will be eliminated entirely. We expected that. However, this interim scenario is remarkably unfavorable. If I decide to go in January, I will be incredible vocal at guest services to the point of being selfish. My annual pass does entitle me to things that I had access to previously, like the Fastpass system. I've already seen the merchandise discounts dropped from 20 to 10% after I was told one thing upon purchasing my pass. Why should I continue to go to a resort that doesn't want me there?

 

[RSoxNo1]

Also... Incomplete data. What were the crowd levels... What capacity were the attractions running at... And the invisible variables... Distribution...

@lentesta already jumped on here and stated that day-of Fastpasses are being distributed at faster rates than New Year's Eve. On the most recent episode of WDW Today he explained that standby wait times are up 33%. This is during low to average crowds.

I've seen Six Flags parks operated better, and by all accounts those parks are operated by people that have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're incompetent.

 

[RSoxNo1]

FP is the band-aid. The real problem is that WDW is short on attractions and hasn't built anything of real substance in 10+ years. THAT is why the waits are ridiculous.

Yep, absolutely. Also, for what it's worth, when this was proposed the presentation included the suggestion of a 3rd theater for Soarin' I wonder if that's budgeted in the $2 billion expense?

 

[flynnibus]

@lentesta already jumped on here and stated that day-of Fastpasses are being distributed at faster rates than New Year's Eve. On the most recent episode of WDW Today he explained that standby wait times are up 33%. This is during low to average crowds.

That's fine.. those are what we call 'observations' - they alone don't tell you WHY. Len gave you observations on FP availability - not the reasons behind them or explaining the lines.

Think about it.. if it's actually low to average crowds (which I question in itself given the reports the week prior).. why are the lines long everywhere? FP/FP+ do not create more people! And contrary to ford91's theory - Disney is not sending the attractions out empty. So what does that tell you? Less bodies.. same capacity... and somehow waits are up? That doesn't add up. So what's changed? If you believe your own song about how low the crowds really are.. that only leaves reduced attraction capacity. FP+ can't be responsible for that wait increase everywhere.. and if only a fraction of guests can get FP+ and they are limited to ~3 in a single park.. how is it this fraction of an audience is somehow dominating all lines in multiple parks? The theories don't add up.

Could FP availability be shunted compared to the past? Certainly - but that wouldn't explain the huge increases in lines. And there aren't enough FP+ eligible people to be sucking up all the FPs that used to be offered.. so it can't be FP+ alone causing this.

And that's the point... you are observing the OUTCOMES of Disney's actions but you can't actually pinpoint what/why they've changed.. and the consequences as postulated don't add up. Yet people are ready to blame its all the FP+ users...

Nevermind it could be direct actions by Disney like reducing FP allotments period.. and reducing attraction capacity by reducing staffing.

 

[flynnibus]

Suffer from analysis paralysis much?

No, but I also don't have to find myself climbing back up the cliff everyone else jumped off because they were in such a rush to jump to a conclusion.

The smart say 'I dont know' and work on a solution - the stupid leap blindly ahead in a rush to have an answer because they are afraid to be caught without an answer.

 

[Nubs70]

Demand for those attractions is difficult to correlate with their counterparts in California because they are located in a park with a much higher attraction density.

Test Track and Soarin have issues because for many people going into the park they are the only rides there. TSMM has issues because DHS has a severe lack of rides for younger guests.

Another way to compare DL and WDW is by TAKT time.

TAKT time is Capacity/Customer Demand.

In an ideal world, TAKT time would equal 1.0. This means that as you got to a ride there would be immediate ride availability with zero wait. Increased demand causes TAKT time to approach zero, lines get longer and guest satisfaction decreases. By reserving FP+, an individual has as perception of increased satisfaction as they are not subject to overall system TAKT time (They have immediate ride availability).

In the case of WDW, overall ride capacity has not increased at the same rate as customer demand resulting in a lower, property wide TAKT time and lower guest satisfaction. FP+ will increase guest satisfaction for those who are able to participate in FP+ at the expense of those who do not participate in FP+. To increase overall TAKT time and increase overall guest satisfaction, WDW needs to build more rides to satisfy the increase in demand from increased attendance.

 

[John]

No, but I also don't have to find myself climbing back up the cliff everyone else jumped off because they were in such a rush to jump to a conclusion.

The smart say 'I dont know' and work on a solution - the stupid leap blindly ahead in a rush to have an answer because they are afraid to be caught without an answer.

OK judge Flynni......I agree with what you say. So what is it? Whats your OPINION why the queues are inflated? You also just cant dismiss Lenesta and the other reports. I think we can give Lenesta the benefit of the doubt and call his "observation" more of an educated analysis? IMO. I think you have already said what the problems are. Less FP's being offered over all. I don't think they are just flat out doing away with FP slowly. Weaning us off of them. No matter what the reason... does it really matter why? I think most guest couldn't care less why?.....they just care how long the wait is. Could it be that this beta testing is a way of checking the level of acceptability of wait times by their guest? I doubt it. Me thinks that they are just trying to figure out what is economically the best formula. In the end it will be the guest that suffers.