DHS New Roundup Rodeo BBQ sit-down restaurant coming to TSL

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
That would bring DHS up to 15 rides.

I'm not asking to be challenging or snarky, but what is the right number of rides for "the other three parks" to have to draw the overcrowding of MK into its satellite parks?

Right now, "the other three" generally have 9 rides each (give or take one) while MK has 27. The other three, however, are supposed to have additional drawing power:
  • DHS: Live shows
  • DAK: (not) a zoo
  • EPC: World's Fair / World Showcase.
So, what is the right number of rides each of "the other three" should have?
1.5 - 2 attractions per guest per hour. So you are probably looking at the 25 - 30 ride range just to handle current attendance levels. The Magic Kingdom was initially designed to handle 10 million people per year and hasn’t really grown that much in terms of capacity. Disney’s Hollywood Studios was designed as a half day park, Disney’s Animal Kingdom was just more than a half day park and Epcot has slid into that same grouping.

Narrowing the gap between the Magic Kingdom and the other parks will require lot more to make the parks more appealing as single day offerings. That gap isn’t just the cultural cache of the classic Disney experience. That gap has not been a constant. Disney’s Animal Kingdom became 3rd most visited and then 2nd most visited as it was built out more. Disney’s Hollywood Studios may be stuck as least visited because despite billions spent doesn’t have the room to handle a lot more people. Magic Kingdom still gives the most bang for your buck.
 

Phicinfan

Well-Known Member
1.5 - 2 attractions per guest per hour. So you are probably looking at the 25 - 30 ride range just to handle current attendance levels. The Magic Kingdom was initially designed to handle 10 million people per year and hasn’t really grown that much in terms of capacity. Disney’s Hollywood Studios was designed as a half day park, Disney’s Animal Kingdom was just more than a half day park and Epcot has slid into that same grouping.

Narrowing the gap between the Magic Kingdom and the other parks will require lot more to make the parks more appealing as single day offerings. That gap isn’t just the cultural cache of the classic Disney experience. That gap has not been a constant. Disney’s Animal Kingdom became 3rd most visited and then 2nd most visited as it was built out more. Disney’s Hollywood Studios may be stuck as least visited because despite billions spent doesn’t have the room to handle a lot more people. Magic Kingdom still gives the most bang for your buck.
Can we finally embrace the fact you won't ever reduce draw of MK in WDW?
AK added an incredibly well done area in Pandora
DHS added an incredibly immersive Star Wars GE and TSL
Epcot is just now starting to expand rides adding Rat, but also replacing rides.

The fact is I don't think you ever get any of the "other" parks to be able to really draw hugely from MK.

Now that being said, I do think you still need work in all three parks.

DHS needs something new in Indy area and in animation area
Epcot needs Guardians to open, you need something better than a digital playland in WoL, and another real ride in WS
Animal Kingdom needs - new rides in Dinosaur area of park, and one more expanded land...Australia??

But you will never ever really empty out MK, just won't happen.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Can we finally embrace the fact you won't ever reduce draw of MK in WDW?
AK added an incredibly well done area in Pandora
DHS added an incredibly immersive Star Wars GE and TSL
Epcot is just now starting to expand rides adding Rat, but also replacing rides.

The fact is I don't think you ever get any of the "other" parks to be able to really draw hugely from MK.

Now that being said, I do think you still need work in all three parks.

DHS needs something new in Indy area and in animation area
Epcot needs Guardians to open, you need something better than a digital playland in WoL, and another real ride in WS
Animal Kingdom needs - new rides in Dinosaur area of park, and one more expanded land...Australia??

But you will never ever really empty out MK, just won't happen.
No because it is not a fact. Magic Kingdom may always the most visited but there is absolutely no inherent constant reason the gap must be so wide.

Pandora was two rides, not 10 new attractions.

Disney’s Hollywood Studios is still so small it can’t handle many more people.

Epcot, which as EPCOT Center once had near parity with Magic Kingdom, has been gutted. One new ride doesn’t reverse that.

The other parks aren’t one or two things behind in their offers, they’re way behind.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
Agreed.

I am sorry, but I don't feel TSL is all that bad. Could it have been improved...probably. I for one don't need Pizza Planet, as I don't care for an arcade pizza joint. Especially with Pizza Rizzo's on the other side of the park. I
With the conceit of "you are the size of a toy"(what size toy we never know as scale is inconsistent) trope that Disney loves to do so much, than I think an arcade pizza joint in giant theme could have some fun potential. The Pizza slices could be a giant family meal served but themed to a Pizza Planet kid personal pizza. Giant arcade games and other fixtures.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
No because it is not a fact. Magic Kingdom may always the most visited but there is absolutely no inherent constant reason the gap must be so wide.

Pandora was two rides, not 10 new attractions.

Disney’s Hollywood Studios is still so small it can’t handle many more people.

Epcot, which as EPCOT Center once had near parity with Magic Kingdom, has been gutted. One new ride doesn’t reverse that.

The other parks aren’t one or two things behind in their offers, they’re way behind.
Great points.
Also, it is not individual attendance. Most of the fact that MK sees such a larger gate click number is the fact that people usually start and end their vacations there. They may not even spend the most time there, but they are going to see that firework show behind the castle if they did not get to it their other day(s) The "halo" park.
 

Phicinfan

Well-Known Member
No because it is not a fact. Magic Kingdom may always the most visited but there is absolutely no inherent constant reason the gap must be so wide.

Pandora was two rides, not 10 new attractions.
Tell that to all the people that keep going there.
Star Wars GE was to be a huge pull and take some off of MK, and it really didn't.
Disney’s Hollywood Studios is still so small it can’t handle many more people.

Epcot, which as EPCOT Center once had near parity with Magic Kingdom, has been gutted. One new ride doesn’t reverse that.

The other parks aren’t one or two things behind in their offers, they’re way behind.
I don't disagree with the above at all. DHS needs more, just not sure rides are it, more atmosphere and/or streetmosphere would be huge! Heck this could have been THE IP park for WDW, think of if they had gone through with putting Tron where Fantasmic is(it was rumored as an option).

To that, if they need to pull more from MK, why IS Tron going to MK? Plus the other expansions they are talking?
 

Casper Gutman

Well-Known Member
Tell that to all the people that keep going there.
Star Wars GE was to be a huge pull and take some off of MK, and it really didn't.

I don't disagree with the above at all. DHS needs more, just not sure rides are it, more atmosphere and/or streetmosphere would be huge! Heck this could have been THE IP park for WDW, think of if they had gone through with putting Tron where Fantasmic is(it was rumored as an option).

To that, if they need to pull more from MK, why IS Tron going to MK? Plus the other expansions they are talking?
Part of the problem is that GE is good but not great. It has one very good ride and one bad ride, and it is very, very difficult to get on the good ride. Most of the other interesting things to do in GE are very significant uncharged. Unlike Potter, the land offers only one generally interesting, non-up charge store (Docs) and the food offerings are very lacking. Even more basically, it lacks pleasant places to sit. It’s not nearly the pull MGM needed - they needed a true blockbuster. Also, given what it replaced, it didn’t increase overall park capacity much, if at all.

They are adding to MK because that park is so vastly overwhelmed.

MK will likely always be the most popular park, but Disney certainly could spread the crowds more by treating the other parks less openly as secondary. That would require a LOT of building - new rides, new show spaces, new street entertainment. They need to do it. Going the AK route of adding a single land themed to a largely forgotten film with one major ride, an insultingly short dark ride, and little else ain’t gonna cut it.
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
I heard that Smugglers run is gonna get some new missions soon? If thats the case, and they had say 3 or 4 missions that were random so that gave it some re-ridability, that would go a long way to making SR not that bad and possibly even good
Where did you hear that?
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Tell that to all the people that keep going there.
Star Wars GE was to be a huge pull and take some off of MK, and it really didn't.

I don't disagree with the above at all. DHS needs more, just not sure rides are it, more atmosphere and/or streetmosphere would be huge! Heck this could have been THE IP park for WDW, think of if they had gone through with putting Tron where Fantasmic is(it was rumored as an option).

To that, if they need to pull more from MK, why IS Tron going to MK? Plus the other expansions they are talking?
Park capacity is a function of hourly attraction capacity. Galaxy’s Edge was not supposed to pull people away from the Magic Kingdom because it physically could not do that. Disney’s Hollywood Studios as a park could not handle pulling away any appreciable number of guests from the Magic Kingdom. Sending out a few Ferraris isn’t going to help with crowding on the busses at park close. Yes they’re cool, yes people really want to ride them, but their lack of seats means they’re not going to make a dent.

TRON was supposed to be a rush job to quickly get capacity into the Magic Kingdom because the park has t actually expanded all that much in 30 years and has even lost retail and dining capacity. Just making the crowding worse won’t make people go to the smaller [capacity] parks that are also too crowded. The Magic Kingdom needs capacity but it doesn’t need as much as the other parks, especially if there is actually a desire to shift visitation patterns.
 

matt9112

Well-Known Member
Tell that to all the people that keep going there.
Star Wars GE was to be a huge pull and take some off of MK, and it really didn't.

I don't disagree with the above at all. DHS needs more, just not sure rides are it, more atmosphere and/or streetmosphere would be huge! Heck this could have been THE IP park for WDW, think of if they had gone through with putting Tron where Fantasmic is(it was rumored as an option).

To that, if they need to pull more from MK, why IS Tron going to MK? Plus the other expansions they are talking?

Well GE sucks soo....build medicore glorifed stores? And... i mean statistically speaking most guests cant ride the headliner. (Mathematically impossible) so that leaves a big chunk of people....playing a glorified video game that you have almost zero input in and expensive shopping.
The phased opening also probably hurt. I was at GE opening weekend (of first phase) and it was crickets....was so odd.

However your talking about decades of underinvestment. Epcot MGM and AK could all use 3 or 4 more rides. Capacity of said rides also matters. One ride at 2000 RPH obviously is doing more work than a ride with 1400 RPH.
Fundamentally this is where it baffles me. How disney continues to build rides with capacity numbers that work at DL in florida.
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
No because it is not a fact. Magic Kingdom may always the most visited but there is absolutely no inherent constant reason the gap must be so wide.

Pandora was two rides, not 10 new attractions.

Disney’s Hollywood Studios is still so small it can’t handle many more people.

Epcot, which as EPCOT Center once had near parity with Magic Kingdom, has been gutted. One new ride doesn’t reverse that.

The other parks aren’t one or two things behind in their offers, they’re way behind.

Exactly. Tokyo still has much closer attendance parity. Universal has managed to equal and sometimes reverse their gates.

Getting a park to 50% of Magic Kingdom's ride roster and saying 'guess we can never close the attendance gap' seems silly. They've never even tried.
 

yensidtlaw1969

Well-Known Member
This is a good question too and I'm also not sure of the answer.

I think the main problem with building "lands" is that they're really only suitable for a small number of IPs. Star Wars and Pandora work as lands -- Cars does too because it's so divorced from the real world. I don't think Toy Story really does as an IP, which is probably a big part of the problem with TSL. Most IPs aren't big enough and/or don't have enough variety to really work as a huge overall land. I don't think many people would be super interested in something like a Snow White land with two or three rides, shops, and a restaurant all themed to Snow White. And as you mentioned, building something like a "Pixar Land" is likely to come across as a shrug.

The original Disney-MGM was probably a good model for that, actually (and Universal Studios too, I suppose), where it wouldn't necessarily matter if you had two rides next to each other that had absolutely nothing in common because the park itself set the overall theme. That's true of DAK and EPCOT to an extent as well, but the individual overall theme of each park limits what really fits there.
This is part of the problem with coming along decades into a park's existence and picking apart its mission statement to convert it into a new thing, like they're trying with DHS and EPCOT.

Say what you will about the success or failures of the parks' individual attractions, but they both worked as holistic experiences. EPCOT was about one thing, Disney MGM Studios was about another, and the attractions bore those things out. There will always be room under the umbrella of a theme to move up (or down) in the quality of the attractions on the menu - Tower of Terror was a great add that further cemented the theme of the park, but Rock N' Roller Coaster diluted it a little - but once you start pulling at the thread of what the park actually is as a guest experience it's very easy to unravel the whole thing. Which is how you end up with huge swaths of buildings throughout both parks that no longer seem to serve any meaningful purpose, despite being purpose-built and well used for 20 years. So then you either reskin them (cheaply, because the budget isn't there for serious placemaking) or you knock them down. But unless you have a really good idea for what the park is looking to become you're gonna end up just as lost as you were before. Each park needs a North Star that guides all its design choices, and right now DHS and EPCOT are each sorely lacking one.

Part of the reason The Magic Kingdom works is because so much of its infrastructure was built in a time where this holistic approach was tantamount and staunchly adhered to. It's only in the past 25 years that Disney has started to waver on its core tenets of park design, and Magic Kingdom has seen comparatively little investment in that time. So in a lot of cases the worst it's seen thematically is having only little pieces picked apart or watered down by misplaced IP or general show quality decline (I'm looking at you, Aladdin's Magic Carpets and Fountains-turned-to-Planters). The days where Animated Characters were basically contained to Fantasyland are over, but the structures that were built throughout the park before those floodgates opened mostly still stand. This does a surprising amount of good for the feel of park, whether the casual guest realises it or not. There's hardly a misplaced or boring-looking building in The Magic Kingdom, and that's because some 95 percent of them were built when there was no mistake about what The Magic Kingdom should be. And, of course, it has the classics, and all that.

EPCOT is the only other WDW park that came close to having its infrastructure benefit from such a considered design approach - and a good amount of it has been tossed out the window in the past 2 years. World Showcase is mostly untouched in this regard and is part of why it's never suffered the ills of a Future World that's spent the last 20 years in various states of upheaval. And, of course, the alcohol and foodie booths. But you walk around World Showcase and that part of the park still feels like the "real deal" of a themed design experience.

DHS . . . had a tougher time out of the gate. The park was rushed, underbuilt, and the dream of an actual working studio in Orlando fizzled sooner than they'd expected. This didn't affect the park immediately, because the concept of visiting a Disneyfied "working studio" in the middle of "Hollywood" is still an appealing one, even if it now necessitated quotation marks. And the solid attraction menu spoke well for that - the rides and shows were unified and mostly enjoyable. But once you give up on that you have to find a new idea that opens itself to the new attractions you want to add, retroactively fits the old ones under its umbrella, and is an interesting idea to the guest on a conceptual level. And then you have to COMMIT to it. DHS is currently failing on at least 2 of those 4 points, which is a big deal.

Animal Kingdom, despite needing more attractions, probably has stayed more true to its North Star than any park in the US, which is impressive given that it's one of the newest. Great bones that still need more filling out, but what has grown in so far generally enhances that structure rather than inhibits it. I really hope it keeps on this trend as it expands. It could be the best park in the US if only it had enough to do.

Ultimately, my point is that the answer is to pick a strong theme for your theme park, adhere the lands to the theme, and then let things flow from there. If Toy Story Land only seems to kinda fit the new mission of DHS, I would argue that's at least in part because the new mission of DHS is kinda half-baked. What are they trying to do there? The real answer is "give some of Disney's most popular properties a place to roost in Florida without having to think too hard about it", but they'll never tell the guests that. It's clear they decided to add Star Wars and Toy Story prescriptively, as if that would somehow inform what the park would evolve into. But it didn't, because it doesn't work that way. So instead they're pretending it's a . . . Studio . . . in Hollywood . . . which makes movies . . . and you like these movies . . . so they're here . . . they're not being MADE here . . . this is just . . . where they are . . . because . . . they had to go somewhere? But we all know it's because they let the park languish to the point where it wasn't pulling its own weight, and Star Wars and Toy Story are expensive bandaids that hopefully are shiny enough to make you not notice that there's no real "idea" to the park anymore. That great Hollywood Boulevard entrance has no real relationship to the part of the park they want you most to love, but they didn't have a better idea, so there it stays. The better for us, who recognize how solid the entry is and would hate to lose it, but it speaks to that lack of focus.

Perhaps nothing demonstrates this more clearly than that list of new names they were testing for DHS that ended up with them simply sticking with what they had - because it was obvious they had no actual new idea for what the park was becoming, other than "the place where Star Wars Land was being built". Which will probably be enough, for now, but I wonder what happens when guests start to look around the rest of it and say "but what even is this place?" It's the Miscellaneous park, sir, and you can't bring that Lightsaber on Slinky Dog.
 

Phicinfan

Well-Known Member
Part of the problem is that GE is good but not great. It has one very good ride and one bad ride, and it is very, very difficult to get on the good ride. Most of the other interesting things to do in GE are very significant uncharged. Unlike Potter, the land offers only one generally interesting, non-up charge store (Docs) and the food offerings are very lacking. Even more basically, it lacks pleasant places to sit. It’s not nearly the pull MGM needed - they needed a true blockbuster. Also, given what it replaced, it didn’t increase overall park capacity much, if at all.
I don't disagree here, they really cut too much from GE, one reason it does not draw that much from MK, which was my point. I will add think if they had not wasted the money on the Hotel, and instead put more into the land itself.
They are adding to MK because that park is so vastly overwhelmed.
Again, my point, thanks
MK will likely always be the most popular park, but Disney certainly could spread the crowds more by treating the other parks less openly as secondary. That would require a LOT of building - new rides, new show spaces, new street entertainment. They need to do it. Going the AK route of adding a single land themed to a largely forgotten film with one major ride, an insultingly short dark ride, and little else ain’t gonna cut it.
With due respect, this is where we disagree. They added Pandora, which really was a beautiful addition and much needed to AK, and it didn't move the needle that much - and yes they need more as the boat ride is not enough. DHS has added TSL, GE and MMRR and HOPEFULLY a bit more in either animation courtyard or in Indy area(some day...) and that won't matter. Epcot at one time was the biggest draw from MK, and that has long gone since it is now the festival center. No, you won't pull folks from MK, MK is what folks associate with Disney and unfortunately WDW.

Could they do something to add to the other parks to improve them, yes. Will it pull from MK, no.

Quite honestly, I would love to see an ... anti-MK - a villians MK, to see if that would pull from the original
 

matt9112

Well-Known Member
Exactly. Tokyo still has much closer attendance parity. Universal has managed to equal and sometimes reverse their gates.

Getting a park to 50% of Magic Kingdom's ride roster and saying 'guess we can never close the attendance gap' seems silly. They've never even tried.


This....100 percent to be fair you could argue outside of good show upkeep MK shouldn't get a single penny....tron is a blunder for example....from a logistical stand point it makes non sense....MK doesn't need to be more popular.
 

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