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Rumor New Monorails Coming Soon?

matt9112

Well-Known Member
The article say's they will order Innovia 300's. Those trains wouldn't fit on the WDW system so if that's part of the information then I would say it's outright false. Could just be the author making assumptions. In any case it shows the article was written with very little knowledge.
simply to play devils adovcate could they design it to fit the WDW beam and station size but use the overall style and arrangement and thus call it the 300s?
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
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simply to play devils adovcate could they design it to fit the WDW beam and station size but use the overall style and arrangement and thus call it the 300s?
The 300 is basically a scaled up 200. So I would think if you scale it back down you would pretty much end up with the same thing. The style and design are very similar with the difference being size. The big advantage for the 300 that differentiates it the most is the walkthrough design between cars. I suspect this was one of the big reasons they went bigger so it was just big enough to allow a small walkway around the wheel. I can’t imagine that working within the size constraints of the Mark VI/ Innovia 200 designs.
 

Lensman

Premium Member
The 300 is basically a scaled up 200. So I would think if you scale it back down you would pretty much end up with the same thing. The style and design are very similar with the difference being size. The big advantage for the 300 that differentiates it the most is the walkthrough design between cars. I suspect this was one of the big reasons they went bigger so it was just big enough to allow a small walkway around the wheel. I can’t imagine that working within the size constraints of the Mark VI/ Innovia 200 designs.
And how critical is the need for the walkway between the cars at WDW? I can see the clear benefit in the metropolitan transit case where in the mid-stations people get off of some cars and the ones waiting to board may be trying to get on the cars that are already full, but it seems to me that the big capacity constrained use case at WDW is the express monorail line and that has everyone getting off and then boarding an empty train, so people can distribute themselves pretty evenly along the platform.

Other than that the Innovia 300 does have more capacity due to being bigger but that's not really something that can be upgraded so easily. [Edited to add the following because the obvious needs to be restated over and over again: because of the constraints of the path through the Contemporary] OTOH, if they are going to go for a capacity upgrade I could see them adding cars if they decide to go for a level-loading design since they'll most likely have to upgrade the stations in that case. Maybe they'll spring for lengthening the stations in addition to raising the platforms? But that's something that we've already discussed earlier in the thread, I believe.
 
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JoeCamel

Well-Known Member
And how critical is the need for the walkway between the cars at WDW? I can see the clear benefit in the metropolitan transit case where in the mid-stations people get off of some cars and the ones waiting to board may be trying to get on the cars that are already full, but it seems to me that the big capacity constrained use case at WDW is the express monorail line and that has everyone getting off and then boarding an empty train, so people can distribute themselves pretty evenly along the platform.

Other than that the Innovia 300 does have more capacity due to being bigger but that's not really something that can be upgraded so easily. OTOH, if they are going to go for a capacity upgrade I could see them adding cars if they decide to go for a level-loading design since they'll most likely have to upgrade the stations in that case. Maybe they'll spring for lengthening the stations in addition to raising the platforms? But that's something that we've already discussed earlier in the thread, I believe.
300 wont fit in the Contemporary
 

Lensman

Premium Member
300 wont fit in the Contemporary
That's what I meant when I said "not really something that can be upgraded so easily". The fact that the Contemporary constrains the size of the monorail has been said over and over and over again in this thread so I didn't think I needed to mention it again. Apparently I was wrong. Thanks for the tip.
Other than that the Innovia 300 does have more capacity due to being bigger but that's not really something that can be upgraded so easily. OTOH, if they are going to go for a capacity upgrade I could see them adding cars if they decide to go for a level-loading design since they'll most likely have to upgrade the stations in that case. Maybe they'll spring for lengthening the stations in addition to raising the platforms? But that's something that we've already discussed earlier in the thread, I believe.
But anyway, @JoeCamel, did you have any thoughts on my main question which is "How useful would the ability of passengers to move between cars be for the WDW use case?"
 
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s8film40

Well-Known Member
And how critical is the need for the walkway between the cars at WDW? I can see the clear benefit in the metropolitan transit case where in the mid-stations people get off of some cars and the ones waiting to board may be trying to get on the cars that are already full, but it seems to me that the big capacity constrained use case at WDW is the express monorail line and that has everyone getting off and then boarding an empty train, so people can distribute themselves pretty evenly along the platform.

Other than that the Innovia 300 does have more capacity due to being bigger but that's not really something that can be upgraded so easily. OTOH, if they are going to go for a capacity upgrade I could see them adding cars if they decide to go for a level-loading design since they'll most likely have to upgrade the stations in that case. Maybe they'll spring for lengthening the stations in addition to raising the platforms? But that's something that we've already discussed earlier in the thread, I believe.
I think it’s something that would be nice but not hugely necessary. One of the advantages I could see is when loading, a lot of people don’t like to walk all the way down to the ends of the platform and block the isles. This way people could pile into the middle and still work their way down. Could also help for loading more last minute guests since the middle would even out more you could jump on even if it’s crowded and know that people will move down.

I think you could get the same benefit though from redesigning the stations. Especially in the case of the MK station. That station is horrible and especially so since they use it in reverse of the way it was designed and originally used. The unload platform just wasn’t designed for those type of crowds. I have no idea why someone hasn’t switched that back.
 

Lensman

Premium Member
I think it’s something that would be nice but not hugely necessary. One of the advantages I could see is when loading, a lot of people don’t like to walk all the way down to the ends of the platform and block the isles. This way people could pile into the middle and still work their way down. Could also help for loading more last minute guests since the middle would even out more you could jump on even if it’s crowded and know that people will move down.
Yeah, it's a bit of an advantage for the last minute guest but with my "WDW transit" hat on, I'm not going to spend $100 million for them and instead will just have them board the next train. Also, am I imagining things or do the cast members not really allow boarding at the last minute? Mostly I'd be looking to optimize for MK closing anyway.

I do wonder about the other case you mention about people not walking all the way down to the end. I don't know whether it's because of my years of experience optimizing my NYC subway ride, but I'm trained to take advantage of these cases. On the subway I will almost always walk to the end of the platform to get the highest probability of getting a seat or at least not have to stare at someone's armpit. On the monorail, I will walk down as far as I can in the "holding corrals" until the path is blocked, then when the corrals open I will take a sharp turn and head to the end.

Good observations, though! Can't wait to hear from others!
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
Yeah, it's a bit of an advantage for the last minute guest but with my "WDW transit" hat on, I'm not going to spend $100 million for them and instead will just have them board the next train. Also, am I imagining things or do the cast members not really allow boarding at the last minute? Mostly I'd be looking to optimize for MK closing anyway.

I do wonder about the other case you mention about people not walking all the way down to the end. I don't know whether it's because of my years of experience optimizing my NYC subway ride, but I'm trained to take advantage of these cases. On the subway I will almost always walk to the end of the platform to get the highest probability of getting a seat or at least not have to stare at someone's armpit. On the monorail, I will walk down as far as I can in the "holding corrals" until the path is blocked, then when the corrals open I will take a sharp turn and head to the end.

Good observations, though! Can't wait to hear from others!
Yeah the cast members will cut the line, mostly because those last guests often realize the middle cars are full and will then start walking all the way down as they notice each car is less and less crowded.

Like I said though I think a station redesign would accomplish the same thing and cost a lot less. I agree I wouldn’t really consider trying to redesign the system for that small benefit.

As for walking down to the last car, even if you’re aware of that issue and want to take advantage of it you often can’t as people stop in the path and there’s just no way to get down there. This results in the pretty much standard practice for night MK monorail cast members screaming at everyone to go all the way down.
 

nace888

Well-Known Member
Yeah the cast members will cut the line, mostly because those last guests often realize the middle cars are full and will then start walking all the way down as they notice each car is less and less crowded.

Like I said though I think a station redesign would accomplish the same thing and cost a lot less. I agree I wouldn’t really consider trying to redesign the system for that small benefit.

As for walking down to the last car, even if you’re aware of that issue and want to take advantage of it you often can’t as people stop in the path and there’s just no way to get down there. This results in the pretty much standard practice for night MK monorail cast members screaming at everyone to go all the way down.
Guilty as charged...

I wonder though, with the Innovia 200s being SMALLER than the Innovia 300s, could the 200s still be designed with a somewhat narrow walkway on one side? It would be kinda tight, BUT it may also open up the space a little bit. ECVs and Strollers would have to stay in the car, but single guests could slide through if needed...

That's why I'd also designed my Mark VIII design with half walls on the ends of the cars, I feel like it could feel more open that way, and open up airflow too...
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
Guilty as charged...

I wonder though, with the Innovia 200s being SMALLER than the Innovia 300s, could the 200s still be designed with a somewhat narrow walkway on one side? It would be kinda tight, BUT it may also open up the space a little bit. ECVs and Strollers would have to stay in the car, but single guests could slide through if needed...

That's why I'd also designed my Mark VIII design with half walls on the ends of the cars, I feel like it could feel more open that way, and open up airflow too...
I think it would be so small it would just end being something for people to get stuck in. I would be interested to see if someone could find a way to make a walkthrough fit, but I'm kind of skeptical it would work.

I like your idea of half walls opening up the area above the wheels to make it more open. I'm not sure where you would move the resistors to though. Perhaps there would be a better solution for storing or reusing the energy instead? It might be one of those things that's not worth how complicated it would be, but it would be a nice touch if someone figured out a way to make it work.
 

nace888

Well-Known Member
I think it would be so small it would just end being something for people to get stuck in. I would be interested to see if someone could find a way to make a walkthrough fit, but I'm kind of skeptical it would work.

I like your idea of half walls opening up the area above the wheels to make it more open. I'm not sure where you would move the resistors to though. Perhaps there would be a better solution for storing or reusing the energy instead? It might be one of those things that's not worth how complicated it would be, but it would be a nice touch if someone figured out a way to make it work.
That's the only reason I didn't continue pushing that concept with half walls. While it could be functional for airflow, evacuations and such, I don't know how it could be moved around. To be honest, I think just removing the center benches may open it up... If Disney's purchase from Bombardier is true (which I doubt it is at this time), then I'd love to see what both companies come up with together for the new series of Disney trains.

Someone INSISTED that Bombardier no longer made monorails, but even I KNOW that's not true. I guess the better question would be if they continued the Innovia 200 series though, as each new system inherently uses the 300 series, not the 200s.
 

NormC

Premium Member
300 Series will not work. It will be modified 200 series. They could drop a 200 on the rail today and it would work it just wouldn't be "Disney" enough.
 

1LE McQueen

Well-Known Member
How old are the current monorails? Me thinks this shouldn't be a tedious process seeing that the older trains were accomplished. Unless there are advanced safety and operation equipment that is only available on new trains, that would require a rework of the current track systems?
 

maxairmike

Well-Known Member
I think it would be so small it would just end being something for people to get stuck in. I would be interested to see if someone could find a way to make a walkthrough fit, but I'm kind of skeptical it would work.

I like your idea of half walls opening up the area above the wheels to make it more open. I'm not sure where you would move the resistors to though. Perhaps there would be a better solution for storing or reusing the energy instead? It might be one of those things that's not worth how complicated it would be, but it would be a nice touch if someone figured out a way to make it work.
I want to say I did some napkin math with specs I found on the 300 bogey that allows the walkthrough design and thought that based on the simple 200 train specs I could find it should theoretically be possible to get that in if they really wanted to with some modification, but it would be extremely tight. I was probably wrong, though, and didn't take enough into account. I'm too lazy to try and find those spec sheets again at the moment, though. lol

The idea of half walls is an interesting one, and I think that would be a nice touch if they couldn't open it up completely.
 

nace888

Well-Known Member
I want to say I did some napkin math with specs I found on the 300 bogey that allows the walkthrough design and thought that based on the simple 200 train specs I could find it should theoretically be possible to get that in if they really wanted to with some modification, but it would be extremely tight. I was probably wrong, though, and didn't take enough into account. I'm too lazy to try and find those spec sheets again at the moment, though. lol

The idea of half walls is an interesting one, and I think that would be a nice touch if they couldn't open it up completely.
It would be far too narrow, but I was hoping.
 

Timon

Well-Known Member
The drive wheels/motor on the Mark VI/Innovia 200 (Las Vegas) are fixed to the Chassis as a single tire and side mounted motor. This transmits a rougher ride to the passengers and tends to rock on sharper turns. The Innovia 300 uses a swiveling "truck" and two smaller drive wheels with a wheel mounted motor, maybe a "lite" version for a new Innovia 200.2 Disney train could be built. While not small enough for a car to car passage way they could lower maintenance costs, provide a better ride suspension and maybe gain a few interior inches length-wise for each car.
LVM M-VI 10 - Drive train.JPG
(Above - Innovia 200 drive train "fixed to chassis")

Bombardier INNOVIA 300 - Bogie-Motor 02.jpg
(Above - Innovia 300 removable "truck" - black part )
 

Jonathan Wang

Disney/Monorail Nut
I think it’s something that would be nice but not hugely necessary. One of the advantages I could see is when loading, a lot of people don’t like to walk all the way down to the ends of the platform and block the isles. This way people could pile into the middle and still work their way down. Could also help for loading more last minute guests since the middle would even out more you could jump on even if it’s crowded and know that people will move down.

I think you could get the same benefit though from redesigning the stations. Especially in the case of the MK station. That station is horrible and especially so since they use it in reverse of the way it was designed and originally used. The unload platform just wasn’t designed for those type of crowds. I have no idea why someone hasn’t switched that back.
Ok i knew i wasnt going crazy when i thought they had it the other way around when i was a kid. that being said, do you think change in the loading areas (the gates) into sliding doors would help with managing some of it? i was thinkng it could push the loading doors closer to the monorail and have more space in the standby areas.
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
Ok i knew i wasnt going crazy when i thought they had it the other way around when i was a kid. that being said, do you think change in the loading areas (the gates) into sliding doors would help with managing some of it? i was thinkng it could push the loading doors closer to the monorail and have more space in the standby areas.
Yeah definitely. Those existing gates are really dumb because they have to swing out which means they have to be set back from the train. I think Disney chose that simply because it was what they know, they're the same type of gates used on all the attractions. Those outside platforms are so narrow so any small amount of space would help.

It's probably worth noting there's a lot of reluctance on Disney's part in upgrading the MK station. It's not ADA accessible and from what I understand if they do anything too significant they lose their grandfathered status and would have to make it accessible. There's also lead paint (and probably other stuff too) which makes it difficult to do work on it. When they cut out the existing gates for the new automatic ones they had to seal off the whole area and send guys in with hazmat suits just to strip a way a 1/2 inch section of paint where the cuts were going to be made.
 
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