This is both encouraging and disheartening all at the same time.
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Rumor New Monorails Coming Soon?
- Thread starter iHeartDisneylandCats
- Start date
This is both encouraging and disheartening all at the same time.
RSoxNo1
Well-Known Member
Or you know, for parts of Pandora.
Gringrinngghost
Well-Known Member
So, I decided to look back on the NTSB documents from the Accident in 09. Without dates, here is the delivery sequence of the current fleet.
1. Blue - 1989
2. Gold - 1989/1990
3. Purple - 1989/1990
4. Black - 1989/1990
5. Pink - 1989/1990
6. Orange - 1989/1990
7. Green - 1989/1990
8. Yellow - 1989/1990
9. Red - 1990/1991
10. Silver - 1990/1991
11. Lime - 1990/1991
12. Coral - 1991
13. Peach - 2011
Note: Peach is comprised of new parts (New Nose Cones) and parts from Pink and Purple. Each Train outside of Blue, Coral, and Peach could fall within the two years listed as there is no solid date for any of them, nor were there years listed in the document that Bombardier gave to the NTSB in 2009.
1. Blue - 1989
2. Gold - 1989/1990
3. Purple - 1989/1990
4. Black - 1989/1990
5. Pink - 1989/1990
6. Orange - 1989/1990
7. Green - 1989/1990
8. Yellow - 1989/1990
9. Red - 1990/1991
10. Silver - 1990/1991
11. Lime - 1990/1991
12. Coral - 1991
13. Peach - 2011
Note: Peach is comprised of new parts (New Nose Cones) and parts from Pink and Purple. Each Train outside of Blue, Coral, and Peach could fall within the two years listed as there is no solid date for any of them, nor were there years listed in the document that Bombardier gave to the NTSB in 2009.
Piney
Member
cspencer96
Well-Known Member
Pink and Purple are not part of the current fleet, and you are missing Teal.
Rich Brownn
Well-Known Member
Talking about the windows that face the station.
Gringrinngghost
Well-Known Member
I purposely left it out of the order of delivery. Teal is the undamaged portions of Purple and Pink, so outside of the color change, there was no new parts that were made to complete the train. the list was to represent new hardware, not preexisting.
Monorail_Red_77
Well-Known Member
Don't forget Teal. Peach and Teal are parts of the old Purple and Pink. With the two damaged cars being new, made in Central Shops.
Monorail_Red_77
Well-Known Member
Saw this post after I posted a comment back to you. Sorry
JoeCamel
Well-Known Member
$300k would be the low end of the current market. Of course, there are a huge number of variables when purchasing a custom product, including both options and how badly the company wants the business. A Disney 40' transit bus isn't a basic product either, there are are number of Disney specifics like a rear wheelchair ramp that aren't common in the industry. Disney isn't a huge purchaser either, their buses tend to last a long time on the road as a result of the driving conditions, which are not very harsh. On the scale of transit bus orders, 20 buses a year (350 buses/18 year lifespan) isn't a huge purchase.
I don't know what transit agency the numbers are from, but one thought is that they might be Canadian $. They fall more into line if you take that into account.
Goofyernmost
Well-Known Member
Yes, exactly... low end public transit. I don't know if Disney even buys rear door wheelchair entry anymore. Those were the RTS buses. Public transport tend to be basic vinyl and plastic interiors with the new style buses that kneel in the front and have a folding ramp that projects out to curb height. Those are, or were, in the $300K class and are what Disney would need for transport from resort to parks. The next class up would be a little more decked out with cloth, padded seats, TV consoles and sometimes even bathrooms on board. The kind that are used for shuttles from the airport, etc. Then there are the super luxury coaches that have all that stuff, air ride and are equipped for long haul travel, cross country or localized tour options. Most of today's low riding public transit buses are manufactured by Gillig (plus many others) now and took over for the higher profile RTS, never change the look, buses for the 80's, 90's and early 2000's.
All Disney buses have rear wheelchair ramps, a holdover from the rear wheelchair lifts on the RTS buses, as they line up with the existing platforms. The articulated buses also have front ramps, and my suspicion is that these were added in case the trial was a failure and the buses were sold off. A bus without a front ramp would be a difficult sell.
There are really only two classes of bus, not three. Low floor heavy duty transit buses, and high floor coach buses. Coach buses can of course be equipped across a whole range, from no-frills commuter options, to reasonable line run coaches, to high end touring coaches. Transit buses have a narrower visible range of options, but they are still many, and Disney hits the middle of the pack here, it's not a basic bus, but it's not special either. There are three primary manufacturers of transit buses in North America, the Canadian companies NovaBus and New Flyer, and the American company Gillig. Disney operates a mixed fleet of all three brands.
For a transit bus, $300k is very, very low end in today's market. in 2014, the New York MTA paid $496,267 each for 45 40' transit buses. These buses would be equipped similarily to a Disney bus: middle of the road in options, basic diesel power, no unnecessary frills. CAD/AVL systems for tracking the buses and automatic announcements are usually not included in that price. The NYMTA is a massive purchaser, so they have the economies of scale working for them, and their orders are highly competitive for New Flyer and Nova.
In short, restricting our comparison to only 40' transit buses equipped in a basic manner, a new Disney bus likely costs over half a million dollars delivered, and even more to equip the systems like Clever Devices and include tools, parts and training specific to the vehicle that is often included. Buses are cheap compared to trains sure, but that's because a large part of the infrastructure already exists in the form of roads. The vehicles themselves aren't where you find savings.
Goofyernmost
Well-Known Member
It's not really all that important, but, no they don't all have rear entry wheelchair service. That would be what the old RTS buses are, they don't buy them anymore, mostly because they aren't really made anymore. Whatever rear loading buses that exist now are left over from the early fleets. All wheelchair ramps are designed to be curb height be they the higher RTS buses or the lower profile Gillig and others. The wheelchair ramps were always breaking down because of the complexity of the folding stairway configuration or the bulky fold down from the outside configuration. You can't give those things away now especially when you are working high volume crowds.
As far as the price, as I said, I have been out of the loop for 10 years, but, back then it was about $350K per bus when purchased in smaller quantities. 300 is a pretty big fleet so I suspect that discounts are allowed for continued business. The current bus manufacturers have a lot of quality competition. None of this information is really relevant, so it is time to stop the discussion. What Disney pays for anything is probably a top secret situation.
I don't know what Disney World you've been going to, but all Disney buses board wheelchairs and ECVs from the rear door instead of the front door. In the past this was certainly accomplished with the folding lift you speak of, and today it's accomplished with the flip-out ramp. Every low floor Disney bus, from the early 2000s to the newest deliveries have rear ramps. This differs from almost every public transit agency, where wheelchairs board at the front door of the bus, so it's an example of a feature that is uncommon in the industry and may increase the price Disney pays for a bus.
While it is true we don't know what Disney pays, it is unlikely they're getting a deal that is leaps and bounds better than a public agency, especially since public procurement is based almost completely on cost. Estimating the price of a bus is important to some people who might want to compare the cost of rail transit or alternative transit (gondola) to the typical bus service. This is especially true as bus service is typically considered to be a low-cost solution.
smile
Well-Known Member
wow...
you got both a 'it's not really all that important' and a 'none of this information is really relevant, so it is time to stop the discussion'
... must really know your stuff
thanks!
wow...
you got both a 'it's not really all that important' and a 'none of this information is really relevant, so it is time to stop the discussion'
... must really know your stuff
thanks!
The problem with all discussion is of course that it is related. Talk of new monorail trains, and the constant desire to see the system expanded, brings up valid comparisons to other modes of transport, and how much they would cost. These numbers exist, either because we know or because we can make a good estimate. The tough part is quantifying the non-monetary value of the Monorail system, which is infinetly more valuable to the Disney brand than all the buses Disney can slap their logo on. It's been mentioned already, but I don't think there's anyone here who doesn't hope the decision makers at TDO recognize this.
esskay
Well-Known Member
There's really no need to attempt a cost comparison with other modes of transportation. What Disney has is not unique. Monorails are use all over the world. All that's unique about Disney's situation is that instead of it being an entirely new infrastructure, you're going to be either adapting an existing one, or adapting existing monorail model designs to work with the customers network.
Right now we know that Bombardier has a pretty much standard model, which with very minor alterations will work on Disney's network. Given all the monorail costs out there generally include the cost of infrastructure, the cost would really be in Bombardier (or whoever takes the project) having to tweak their existing models so that they can be manufactured for Disney's system.
As I posted many many pages back, people here dont have a clue on the actual cost, or even a ballpark estimate - none of us do. But its not going to be anywhere near as much as some of the numbers people here throw around, just as it wouldn't cost anywhere near as much as people claim to build new beams should it ever be needed/wanted.
Right now we know that Bombardier has a pretty much standard model, which with very minor alterations will work on Disney's network. Given all the monorail costs out there generally include the cost of infrastructure, the cost would really be in Bombardier (or whoever takes the project) having to tweak their existing models so that they can be manufactured for Disney's system.
As I posted many many pages back, people here dont have a clue on the actual cost, or even a ballpark estimate - none of us do. But its not going to be anywhere near as much as some of the numbers people here throw around, just as it wouldn't cost anywhere near as much as people claim to build new beams should it ever be needed/wanted.
Jonathan Wang
Disney/Monorail Nut
Got a question for you regarding if disney brought in new monorails. Since you worked as a pilot and what not, do you think they would change/switch to sliding doors and trying to keep the loading areas in line with the height of the monorail entrance to speed loading/unloading up? or keep it the way it is now?