Rumor New Monorails Coming Soon?

[Sirwalterraleigh]

That is basically what I was saying, they are still a novelty though and even though they do perform a transportation need other things would work as well. But, they are encased in WDW from day one and for returning visitors they are a must even if they only see them and don't ride on them. They could take a big chance and just eliminate them and in 20 years or so most of the objection would no longer be a problem. They have always been a utility/attraction, just as the Gondola's will be now.

The boomers have been there since day one and they are in severe decline now...I’m an Xer and while they are iconic to me, I don’t see them as a deal breaker to anyone in my bracket or younger.

Remember: they are low tech...smell and wobbly...new trains would help...but any other convenient method would be adopted faster than you think.

A lot depends on the transportation master plan as well.

 

[Flalex72]

If they're based on the 300, they won't just be modified, they'll be HEAVILY modified. The difference between the Mark VI and INNOVIA 300 isn't just a few inches in any direction, its feet. A difference of approx. 3ft. vertically, and 2ft. in width. My guess is they'd try to do some kind of marriage of the two models, as the 200 is actually a matter of inches in any direction. If they can fit the bogie system of the 300 into a 200-sized body design, that would probably be their ideal situation, as it should allow for a walkthrough cabin design, which is probably a major point for a new set of trains. I'd also expect new trains to finally bring in a working automation system, paired with Bombardier's CITYFLO 650 system.

I doubt we would see SelTrac replaced at this point. Integration issues seem to have all revolved around getting the system to work with the existing trains. Installing the SelTrac equipment in a new train is much easier. Though Bombardier offers now CITYFLO, they have a long history of working with SelTrac, literally going back to the construction of the Scarborough RT, the first SelTrac installation. I would hazard a guess that Bombardier actually produces more trains equipped with SelTrac than CITYFLO, or has up until now.

 

[Timon]

"Bigart, post: 8167994, member: 14496"]We shall have to wait and see if the limited report has any basis in fact, and of course it could be possible. If true, I do not believe however that the 300's will be the chassis used, but rather a modified version of the 200 series."

Bombardier is one of the top Mass Transit manufacturers in the world and does build a quality product. Issues happen due to change orders from the client after construction has started. Numerous delays happen when politics get involved often adding years to projects or change the plan for a new focus. Most likely Disney will try to force a company to use non-standard equipment like the Thales automation which would be a disaster vs the Bombardier's CityFlo system which has proven itself in Las Vegas in the Innovia 200 since 2003.

WDW would likely order the Bombardier 200 (Las Vegas) model with dimensions exactly the same width and height as the existing Mark VI. WDW would not pick Innovia 300 because it's very unlikely WDW would replace 14 miles of 26" wide track with a 27.2" track or modify the Contemporary's 6th floor rooms for the trains to pass thru or widen every station in the system or a new Monorail shop because the doors are too narrow.

It is likely Bombardier will have to scrap the existing 600V power system and upgrade to the 750V mass transit standard. The Thales automation and signal system would have to go, too.

WDW would probably order the Innovia 200.2 with the latest Innovia 300 technology (that fits in the train). Imaginearing would provide the concept design for the front/rear car, overall look and interior. Scot Drake, Principal Concept Designer was the designer for the Disneyland Mark VII trains and we all know Bob Gurr designed Mark I thru Mark VI. Hardware would be Bombardier.
I would like to see:

• City Flo 650 - full automation
• Better interior layout
  View attachment 278359
• Cool LED lighting inside and out
  
  
• Video informationscreens
• WiFi
• Dual AC per car
• Flush Doors that don't drop down to open which allows level floor entry

Here's a take on a Innovia 200.2

New Concept: Lengthen only the TTC Express Station and the Magic Kingdom station to handle 7 car express trains, this would add 60 more people to each train totaling 420 passengers per car. 4 - 7 car trains on the Express Line would be 1690 in motion. (Bombardier equipment is designed to handle 8 car trains)

Bombardier Monorail Credibility:
Latest monorail system - Sao Paulo Brazil

San Paulo – Bombardier INNOVIA 300 - Phase 1a 2014, Phase 1b 2018

Line 17 - 26km 19 stations
Monorail yard
10.7 Km 6 stations (now) 4 more by May, 2 more by 2020. Phase 2 - 7 more & 2nd Monorail Yard
1124 beams (includes 256 for Monorail yard)
Beam .690mm (27.2”) or Average 30m long, 70 cm, wide (27.5”) by 70tons
27(!)-7 Car Trains
750vdc

Final Product:
48,000 per hr per direction (7 cars) 500,000 per day
54 7 car trains / 378 cars / 50.2m long / 3.1m wide
Light Load: 623 Passengers (89 per car)(17 seated per car)(7 car train)
Max Load: 1002 Passengers (143 per car)(17 seated per car)(7 car train)
Max Speed 90kmh(56 mpg), normal 80kmh(45 mpg)
Walk thru design
Open visual end design
Fully Automated (CITYFLO 650)
Automatic Train coupling

 

[msg7]

"Bigart, post: 8167994, member: 14496"]We shall have to wait and see if the limited report has any basis in fact, and of course it could be possible. If true, I do not believe however that the 300's will be the chassis used, but rather a modified version of the 200 series."

Bombardier is one of the top Mass Transit manufacturers in the world and does build a quality product. Issues happen due to change orders from the client after construction has started. Numerous delays happen when politics get involved often adding years to projects or change the plan for a new focus. Most likely Disney will try to force a company to use non-standard equipment like the Thales automation which would be a disaster vs the Bombardier's CityFlo system which has proven itself in Las Vegas in the Innovia 200 since 2003.

WDW would likely order the Bombardier 200 (Las Vegas) model with dimensions exactly the same width and height as the existing Mark VI. WDW would not pick Innovia 300 because it's very unlikely WDW would replace 14 miles of 26" wide track with a 27.2" track or modify the Contemporary's 6th floor rooms for the trains to pass thru or widen every station in the system or a new Monorail shop because the doors are too narrow.

It is likely Bombardier will have to scrap the existing 600V power system and upgrade to the 750V mass transit standard. The Thales automation and signal system would have to go, too.

WDW would probably order the Innovia 200.2 with the latest Innovia 300 technology (that fits in the train). Imaginearing would provide the concept design for the front/rear car, overall look and interior. Scot Drake, Principal Concept Designer was the designer for the Disneyland Mark VII trains and we all know Bob Gurr designed Mark I thru Mark VI. Hardware would be Bombardier.
I would like to see:

• City Flo 650 - full automation
• Better interior layout
  View attachment 278359
• Cool LED lighting inside and out
  View attachment 278363
• Video informationscreens
• WiFi
• Dual AC per car
• Flush Doors that don't drop down to open which allows level floor entry

Here's a take on a Innovia 200.2
View attachment 278365

New Concept: Lengthen only the TTC Express Station and the Magic Kingdom station to handle 7 car express trains, this would add 60 more people to each train totaling 420 passengers per car. 4 - 7 car trains on the Express Line would be 1690 in motion. (Bombardier equipment is designed to handle 8 car trains)

Bombardier Monorail Credibility:
Latest monorail system - Sao Paulo Brazil

San Paulo – Bombardier INNOVIA 300 - Phase 1a 2014, Phase 1b 2018

Line 17 - 26km 19 stations
Monorail yard
10.7 Km 6 stations (now) 4 more by May, 2 more by 2020. Phase 2 - 7 more & 2nd Monorail Yard
1124 beams (includes 256 for Monorail yard)
Beam .690mm (27.2”) or Average 30m long, 70 cm, wide (27.5”) by 70tons
27(!)-7 Car Trains
750vdc

Final Product:
48,000 per hr per direction (7 cars) 500,000 per day
54 7 car trains / 378 cars / 50.2m long / 3.1m wide
Light Load: 623 Passengers (89 per car)(17 seated per car)(7 car train)
Max Load: 1002 Passengers (143 per car)(17 seated per car)(7 car train)
Max Speed 90kmh(56 mpg), normal 80kmh(45 mpg)
Walk thru design
Open visual end design
Fully Automated (CITYFLO 650)
Automatic Train coupling

View attachment 278372View attachment 278373View attachment 278374View attachment 278376View attachment 278378

I like it.... I think that they would have to go with the open gangway design though, or at least I want them to... Also, I don't know about you guys but personally, I'm not a fan of the rounded covers for the tires at the end of the cabins on the Innovia 200s...

 

[MisterPenguin]

My understanding is that a Disney exec disclosed this to CMs in a live meeting over the weekend. I was DM’d about it shortly after it happened. No mention was made of an imminent order though.

Reliable CM.

That could be possible. I know they have been in talks with companies. That said I was told no order has been placed at this time.

It was confirmed to me that we should have new monorail trains by the 50th.

No order is placed but Bombardier is included in discussions.

the theatre funds were allocated elsewhere.

So, then...

1. WDW wants to buy new monorail cars.​

2. WDW is deciding which company to go with.​

3. WDW wants to get the new cars by the 50th (10/1/2021)​

4. This has been in the works for a while, and the cancelled theater is not the source of funding for it.​

This means, as far as our insiders go, the only thing that has changed in the past year is a decision to get this done by the 50th.

It also means that clickbait has it wrong that an order has been made with a specific company and that it's funded with cancelled theater budget.

 

[The Mom]

Please try to stay on topic. Thanks.

 

[Flalex72]

"Bigart, post: 8167994, member: 14496"]We shall have to wait and see if the limited report has any basis in fact, and of course it could be possible. If true, I do not believe however that the 300's will be the chassis used, but rather a modified version of the 200 series."

Bombardier is one of the top Mass Transit manufacturers in the world and does build a quality product. Issues happen due to change orders from the client after construction has started. Numerous delays happen when politics get involved often adding years to projects or change the plan for a new focus. Most likely Disney will try to force a company to use non-standard equipment like the Thales automation which would be a disaster vs the Bombardier's CityFlo system which has proven itself in Las Vegas in the Innovia 200 since 2003.

WDW would likely order the Bombardier 200 (Las Vegas) model with dimensions exactly the same width and height as the existing Mark VI. WDW would not pick Innovia 300 because it's very unlikely WDW would replace 14 miles of 26" wide track with a 27.2" track or modify the Contemporary's 6th floor rooms for the trains to pass thru or widen every station in the system or a new Monorail shop because the doors are too narrow.

It is likely Bombardier will have to scrap the existing 600V power system and upgrade to the 750V mass transit standard. The Thales automation and signal system would have to go, too.

WDW would probably order the Innovia 200.2 with the latest Innovia 300 technology (that fits in the train). Imaginearing would provide the concept design for the front/rear car, overall look and interior. Scot Drake, Principal Concept Designer was the designer for the Disneyland Mark VII trains and we all know Bob Gurr designed Mark I thru Mark VI. Hardware would be Bombardier.
I would like to see:

• City Flo 650 - full automation
• Better interior layout
  View attachment 278359
• Cool LED lighting inside and out
• Video informationscreens
• WiFi
• Dual AC per car
• Flush Doors that don't drop down to open which allows level floor entry

To say that the Thales SelTrac system is non-standard shows a lack of understanding of the market. SelTrac is literally the original automatic moving block signalling system, and remains one of if not the most widely installed. Bombardier and predecessors have built hundreds of SelTrac equipped trains, including the original trains for the first SelTrac installations in Toronto and Vancouver. With modern SelTrac infrastructure already installed on the guideway, it makes no sense to tear it all out and replace it. Doing so would only result in months of closures as new and old vehicles could not share tracks.

While 600v systems are not commonly installed today, there are also dozens operating around the world. Bombardier is currently building streetcars for Toronto operating on 600v, there is no reason they couldn't build monorails for WDW. Like the signalling, significantly changing any trackside infrastructure will result in months of delay and closures as the new and old trains would not be compatible.

Although Bombardier is the topic of this conversation, all of the points made apply to any manufacturer.

 

[gsimpson]

Another factor that might be quickening their decision: Whenever a theme park designs, or has a vendor design, anything that interacts with guest they do a hazard analysis, failure mode effects analysis, along with quite a few other very detailed engineering reports going into the design to prove the design is safe. All of those reports include a life expectancy, typically 20 years, once that time has expired then all of the engineering analysis done to prove it was safe becomes partially invalid, for example all of your metal fatigue data is out the window, probability of failing dangerous is now changed, etc. If the monorails are past their designed life (they could have done the engineering for 40 years for all I know so I AM NOT saying they are past their design life) then if something happens and they get sued they will lose a good deal of their defense because they will not have the engineering data to prove the design is safe. There are quite a few examples of theme parks replacing popular rides with nearly identical rides even though the original was still functioning reliably for exactly this reason. Being able to prove your engineering diligence when defending a law suit is a huge advantage and defeats most nuisance suits.

 

[articos]

"Bigart, post: 8167994, member: 14496"]We shall have to wait and see if the limited report has any basis in fact, and of course it could be possible. If true, I do not believe however that the 300's will be the chassis used, but rather a modified version of the 200 series."

Bombardier is one of the top Mass Transit manufacturers in the world and does build a quality product. Issues happen due to change orders from the client after construction has started. Numerous delays happen when politics get involved often adding years to projects or change the plan for a new focus. Most likely Disney will try to force a company to use non-standard equipment like the Thales automation which would be a disaster vs the Bombardier's CityFlo system which has proven itself in Las Vegas in the Innovia 200 since 2003.

WDW would likely order the Bombardier 200 (Las Vegas) model with dimensions exactly the same width and height as the existing Mark VI. WDW would not pick Innovia 300 because it's very unlikely WDW would replace 14 miles of 26" wide track with a 27.2" track or modify the Contemporary's 6th floor rooms for the trains to pass thru or widen every station in the system or a new Monorail shop because the doors are too narrow.

It is likely Bombardier will have to scrap the existing 600V power system and upgrade to the 750V mass transit standard. The Thales automation and signal system would have to go, too.

WDW would probably order the Innovia 200.2 with the latest Innovia 300 technology (that fits in the train). Imaginearing would provide the concept design for the front/rear car, overall look and interior. Scot Drake, Principal Concept Designer was the designer for the Disneyland Mark VII trains and we all know Bob Gurr designed Mark I thru Mark VI. Hardware would be Bombardier.
I would like to see:

• City Flo 650 - full automation
• Better interior layout
  View attachment 278359
• Cool LED lighting inside and out
  View attachment 278363
• Video informationscreens
• WiFi
• Dual AC per car
• Flush Doors that don't drop down to open which allows level floor entry

Here's a take on a Innovia 200.2
View attachment 278365

New Concept: Lengthen only the TTC Express Station and the Magic Kingdom station to handle 7 car express trains, this would add 60 more people to each train totaling 420 passengers per car. 4 - 7 car trains on the Express Line would be 1690 in motion. (Bombardier equipment is designed to handle 8 car trains)

Bombardier Monorail Credibility:
Latest monorail system - Sao Paulo Brazil

San Paulo – Bombardier INNOVIA 300 - Phase 1a 2014, Phase 1b 2018

Line 17 - 26km 19 stations
Monorail yard
10.7 Km 6 stations (now) 4 more by May, 2 more by 2020. Phase 2 - 7 more & 2nd Monorail Yard
1124 beams (includes 256 for Monorail yard)
Beam .690mm (27.2”) or Average 30m long, 70 cm, wide (27.5”) by 70tons
27(!)-7 Car Trains
750vdc

Final Product:
48,000 per hr per direction (7 cars) 500,000 per day
54 7 car trains / 378 cars / 50.2m long / 3.1m wide
Light Load: 623 Passengers (89 per car)(17 seated per car)(7 car train)
Max Load: 1002 Passengers (143 per car)(17 seated per car)(7 car train)
Max Speed 90kmh(56 mpg), normal 80kmh(45 mpg)
Walk thru design
Open visual end design
Fully Automated (CITYFLO 650)
Automatic Train coupling

View attachment 278372View attachment 278373View attachment 278374View attachment 278376View attachment 278378

Good post. Any unannounced, hypothetical trains would be custom. A little of this, a little of that. WDI would design the shell and interiors. Don’t expect the guideways to change. Other things might. 1970s WED could/would have brought in the expertise to do the job mostly in house, but that was when they had the budget to build out the property and the trains were mechanical. Afterwards, for a long time, they had the talent to rebuild the trains one by one. As great as the monorail shop is, they don’t have the manpower to build a fleet these days. In 2018 WDC, this is something to send to a vendor, for cost savings, liability and the fact they’d have to hire a bunch of people away from an established monorail company to get it done. That’s more expensive and complicated than just putting it out to vendors.

 

[marni1971]

I don’t think Tom would run with this unless he thought it had some substance...

 

[montyz81]

The article say's they will order Innovia 300's. Those trains wouldn't fit on the WDW system so if that's part of the information then I would say it's outright false. Could just be the author making assumptions. In any case it shows the article was written with very little knowledge.

I thought the Innova 300 was based on the MK VI... no?

 

[s8film40]

I thought the Innova 300 was based on the MK VI... no?

The Innovia 200 was. The 300 was designed to be a larger version.

 

[ToTBellHop]

Apparently there have been quite a few complaints from guests paying $700/night or$180/pt about flakey service at the monorail resorts and DVCs.

 

[montyz81]

I am chuffed at the prospects of a new Monorail fleet. I am hopeful that this is not just a rumor and based on the endorsements from the people "in the know" I am convinced that this is at least a think within the ranks of WDW Execs, even if it doesn't stick.
Besides, I am not sure any monorail rumor has ever been accompanied by such a long/dedicated article like this, although I could have missed it last time there was a rumor running around.

 

[montyz81]

One other comment... this better make it on to all the new monorails if this rumor ends up being true:

 

[esskay]

The Innovia 200 was. The 300 was designed to be a larger version.

The 300 is still likely going to be the base. The 200 is EOL.

Just like the Movia, the Innovia range are designed to have a fully customisable chassis design. The design you see used in most places is their turnkey product, but they do offer customisation to both design and structure. If I'm not mistaken, they're currently building out custom 300's for the SkyTrain system, which runs 200s.

 

[marni1971]

I am hopeful that this is not just a rumor and based on the endorsements from the people "in the know".

Potentially it’s not. Early days yet though. It won’t be next week.

 

[GhostHost1000]

I think that they will do new transportation options that will reduce staffing, maintenance and energy costs...it only makes sense going forward. I don’t know what that will be...but the fact the gondolas are relative low frills and are gonna serve 2 parks and 7 hotels (more or less) with a year’s construction makes me think the monorail doesn’t have to be preserved.

Now they don’t need it to market anymore...what does that matter?

And for every person who says then can NEVER get rid of monorails...I got 50 that were adamant against parking fees a month ago and now don’t even remember.

WDW patrons are terrible consumers...they shoot themseves in the keister daily.

I've been wondering what all options exist long term...some new rail or people mover type system mostly at ground level (for safety concerns as well) and traveling along side some roads to connect parks and resorts or maybe the gondola type system is the least expensive but what that would be like at every resort and park I'm not sure.... plus I'm still very interested to see how these pan out

 

[Driver]

My bus driver was not pleased about this news.

Another bus driver slam !!!! Cmon it's getting old!!

 

[s8film40]

The 300 is still likely going to be the base. The 200 is EOL.

Just like the Movia, the Innovia range are designed to have a fully customisable chassis design. The design you see used in most places is their turnkey product, but they do offer customisation to both design and structure. If I'm not mistaken, they're currently building out custom 300's for the SkyTrain system, which runs 200s.

I'm not familiar with the SkyTrain system, but a quick google search seems to show it as not even being monorail. Perhaps I missed something?

But yeah, basically your just talking about a number/name. The point is the 200's were designed around the Disney system, the 300's were designed with a more ground up approach. They made the beam and trains larger with a walkthrough design. All these projects are pretty much custom projects. Some people seem to have the idea you just call up Bombardier and order trains off the shelf. In any case if or when Bombardier makes new trains for Disney (assuming Disney doesn't change out the whole system) it will be closer to the 200's. Can they call it 300, sure. They could even call it 400 if they want.