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Rumor New Monorails Coming Soon?

donsullivan

Premium Member
Mini Van, is expensive if used


I do not think it is that complicated. Take the monorail loop and route it south by the solar farm leaving Epcot to serve HS. From HS, continue west to AK, return back north and connect back to Epcot Mickey solar farm. That total loop will be less track than the loop added for Epcot and will service all 4 parks. And for the cost argument, again, refund the Gondola, Ferry Boat Dock, Roads/Bridges, etc.... Then the buses would serve Resort to Parks, monorail Park to Park. I just don't like how disjointed everything is, and again, everybody is more upset about the broken yeti, then spending hours on your vacation waiting for transport.
Before just throwing that out there I would encourage you to spend some time walking through how it would actually work. Do't just touch on the 35,000 foot view of where stations and routes would be, focus on how the guest would actually get from place to place using that system. What would a guest have to go through to get from point to point? What would happen when a train arrives at a park at park close and it's full and nobody can board (there would be a riot) because the park before it on the beam closed around the same time. How many stops and changes does it take go get from all the common point A to PoInt B scenarios? How long would it take a guest to get between the farthest points of the routes vs what it takes today (do this without hyperbole I the measurements).

Its easy to throw things like that out there but it's vital that you clearly understand exactly how the guests would actually experience this. In most cases, history has taught me that the guest experience would be so confusing, difficult and slow that the value is just not there. While it may seem like it would be cool, it would not likely be a positive experience for the guests.
 

NelsonRD

Well-Known Member
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Before just throwing that out there I would encourage you to spend some time walking through how it would actually work. Do't just touch on the 35,000 foot view of where stations and routes would be, focus on how the guest would actually get from place to place using that system. What would a guest have to go through to get from point to point? What would happen when a train arrives at a park at park close and it's full and nobody can board (there would be a riot) because the park before it on the beam closed around the same time. How many stops and changes does it take go get from all the common point A to PoInt B scenarios? How long would it take a guest to get between the farthest points of the routes vs what it takes today (do this without hyperbole I the measurements).

Its easy to throw things like that out there but it's vital that you clearly understand exactly how the guests would actually experience this. In most cases, history has taught me that the guest experience would be so confusing, difficult and slow that the value is just not there. While it may seem like it would be cool, it would not likely be a positive experience for the guests.
Of course this is speculation. Its all a moot point anyways. I am not doing a thesis on this. This is clearly not a "Give me proof" style discussion. The point was - if the effort went into the monorail, instead of other transport enhancements, I believe it is something that could have been done, and disprove the rumor that it was always too expensive to do.

But I do disagree with your impression of guest experience. Being consistent knowing a monorail can take you to all parks is valuable. Not sure how having a clean monorail loop would be any more confusing that looking for bus terminals, schedules, vans, or driving.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Well-Known Member
1970's Disney would absolutely do this. I'm not sure modern day Disney would however. It's going to be a lot more cost effective (And quicker) to just buy slightly modified stock monorails from an experienced manufacturer at this stage.
I think that’s the issue...transport is a loss to the beaners today as opposed to past management that wouldn’t harp on it.

Even if the track system is ok for 20 years as you say (reasonable...I’m not disputing that), I don’t think they would invest in anything for ONLY 20 years...

I don’t see them putting money into the monorails...but time will tell.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Well-Known Member
That could be possible. I know they have been in talks with companies. That said I was told no order has been placed at this time.
Disney execs tell employees nothing at low levels...

...you know better, young Jedi.

Name tags are on a “need to know” basis and they don’t need to know...
 

maxairmike

Well-Known Member
FWIW theres nothing structurally wrong with the beams (even on the epcot line). The design of them is sound and they are good for at least another 20 years, the only improvement that can be made if needed is a reskin of the upper stage, and even then it would be purely for comfort of passengers.


Actually they will, with modification. Although it really wouldn't make any technical difference either way - both designs would require modifications to fit through the Contemporary.

The design would likely be based on the 300 as thats the model the development focus is on. They'd then just use a modified chassis design, and would presumably take advantage of the Innova AMP system (absolutely no reason they cant, the WDW system is tiny in comparison to most modern day monorails). Essentially following a similar driverless setup to systems such as the DLR in London England.

This is of course assuming Bombardier is given the contract and not someone else - monorails using the ALWEG system arent in short supply and people here seem to be taking way too much of the Mark IV > Mark VI transition into account - back then there wasnt the mass support or usage of monorails like there is today.

Also no idea where people got the idea that the monorail is expensive to run from. The only reason the current fleet is costing so much is because of all the incidents. When maintained the Mark IV ran at around $0.06 per passenger mile, and the IV at upto $0.10 per passenger mile.
If they're based on the 300, they won't just be modified, they'll be HEAVILY modified. The difference between the Mark VI and INNOVIA 300 isn't just a few inches in any direction, its feet. A difference of approx. 3ft. vertically, and 2ft. in width. My guess is they'd try to do some kind of marriage of the two models, as the 200 is actually a matter of inches in any direction. If they can fit the bogie system of the 300 into a 200-sized body design, that would probably be their ideal situation, as it should allow for a walkthrough cabin design, which is probably a major point for a new set of trains. I'd also expect new trains to finally bring in a working automation system, paired with Bombardier's CITYFLO 650 system.
 
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ppete1975

Well-Known Member
I think that’s the issue...transport is a loss to the beaners today as opposed to past management that wouldn’t harp on it.

Even if the track system is ok for 20 years as you say (reasonable...I’m not disputing that), I don’t think they would invest in anything for ONLY 20 years...

I don’t see them putting money into the monorails...but time will tell.
So you are saying no new monorails, wait till either the beams or the monorails are not cost effective or possible to upkeep. Then just rocket rods it? Id agree but the monorail resorts esp the contemporary make me think monorails are here to stay. But only my opinion.
 

msg7

Well-Known Member
If they're based on the 300, they won't just be modified, they'll be HEAVILY modified. The difference between the Mark VI and INNOVIA 300 isn't just a few inches in any direction, its feet. A difference of approx. 3ft. vertically, and 2ft. in width. My guess is they'll try to do some kind of marriage of the two models, as the 200 is actually a matter of inches in any direction. If they can fit the bogie system of the 300 into a 200-sized body design, that would probably be their ideal situation, as it should allow for a walkthrough cabin design, which is probably a major point for a new set of trains. I'd also expect new trains to finally bring in a working automation system, paired with Bombardier's CITYFLO 650 system.
Plus a lawsuit against Thales, the company that ruined the monorails.... (implemented the current automation system)
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
My guess is that if it is Bombardier, they will be built at the Millhaven (Kingston) plant, which is alredy equipped for monorail production and is the filming location for the first video you posted. Trucking distance isn't that much greater, they already build monorails there, and there are no Buy America concerns as it's a private buyer.
Let me say first that I don't care if it is built in the US or not. I don't even know if we have that ability here, but, I'm not sure how TWDC is a private buyer and not a US based corporation. Just curious about this part of it. We live in the world and the time for us to be isolationist didn't even work back when it was first thought of two and a half centuries ago.
 

Bigart

Active Member
The current Mark VIs and the Innovia 200s both run on a 26 inch wide beam. The Innovia 300s run on a 27.2 inch wide beam.
The width of the current Mark VIs is 8'-4 1/2" wide, the Innovia 200 is 8'-8" wide, and the Innovia 300 is 10'-4" wide.
The height of the Mark VI is 10'-5 1/2", the Innovia 200 is 11'-2", and the 300s are 13'-4"
As mentioned in an earlier comment the 300s are basically 2' wider and 3' taller than the current Mark VIs.
A 300 won't fit into the stations either in height or width, the beams are 1.2" too narrow, and the 300's skirt width is too wide for WDW's existing station skirt troughs.
A modified 200 is a much more logical assumption. If there were no station dimensions to contend with, a stock 200 could be plopped down on the existing beams tomorrow. The issue is going to be with station clearances, platform elevations in relation to the train's floor elevation, and train lengths. When the Mark VI's were brought online, all of the stations' floor elevations had to be raised approx 6".
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Well-Known Member
So you are saying no new monorails, wait till either the beams or the monorails are not cost effective or possible to upkeep. Then just rocket rods it? Id agree but the monorail resorts esp the contemporary make me think monorails are here to stay. But only my opinion.
I think that they will do new transportation options that will reduce staffing, maintenance and energy costs...it only makes sense going forward. I don’t know what that will be...but the fact the gondolas are relative low frills and are gonna serve 2 parks and 7 hotels (more or less) with a year’s construction makes me think the monorail doesn’t have to be preserved.

Now they don’t need it to market anymore...what does that matter?

And for every person who says then can NEVER get rid of monorails...I got 50 that were adamant against parking fees a month ago and now don’t even remember.

WDW patrons are terrible consumers...they shoot themseves in the keister daily.
 
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Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
I think that’s the issue...transport is a loss to the beaners today as opposed to past management that wouldn’t harp on it.

Even if the track system is ok for 20 years as you say (reasonable...I’m not disputing that), I don’t think they would invest in anything for ONLY 20 years...

I don’t see them putting money into the monorails...but time will tell.
Even back then the Monorails were not considered a necessity, it was all an image thing and now it is a difficult to not have since very much of the WDW image is embedded in concrete concerning Monorails. I would think that world wide the demand for monorails is not overwhelming, it really shouldn't be unreasonably expensive since all Disney has to say is no way and all those fantasy dreams of wild riches envisioned by manufactures will disappear.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Well-Known Member
Even back then the Monorails were not considered a necessity, it was all an image thing and now it is a difficult to not have since very much of the WDW image is embedded in concrete concerning Monorails. I would think that world wide the demand for monorails is not overwhelming, it really shouldn't be unreasonably expensive since all Disney has to say is no way and all those fantasy dreams of wild riches envisioned by manufactures will disappear.
But in the past you had to see a commercial featuring live on NETWORK tv...45 seconds of pure joy.

Or go to the library and check out burnbaums.

Epcot was a viable advertising platform once as well...it is no longer.

I used the easy parking anology...two months ago pitchforks and torches...now $175 a week at the poly on your visa.

Same with monorails...they could be easily demoed...someday.
 

Flalex72

Well-Known Member
Let me say first that I don't care if it is built in the US or not. I don't even know if we have that ability here, but, I'm not sure how TWDC is a private buyer and not a US based corporation. Just curious about this part of it. We live in the world and the time for us to be isolationist didn't even work back when it was first thought of two and a half centuries ago.
Simplified, "Buy America" is a law that requires transportation spending receiving federal funds, usually grants from the FTA or USDOT to be spent on products produced in the USA, or with a large percentage produced in the USA. It is for this reason that Canadian manufacturers, such as Bombardier (trains), New Flyer (buses), and Nova Bus all have large production facilities in the USA, as well as their international counterparts, who often setup temporary manufacturing facilities for assembly in the USA.

It comes into this discussion as such a huge percentage of the mass transit projects in the USA have a government funding component,
American mass transit purchases that do not need to meet Buy America provisions are the exception and not the rule. If Disney were to order trains from Bombardier, Bombardier could choose to manufacture the trains wherever was cheapest for them, as Buy America rules would not apply. Disney buses are similar, when Disney orders Nova Buses, they could be produced in Plattsburgh (USA) or Saint-Eustache (Canada) depending on what works best for Nova, potentially getting Disney a lower price than a similar order that had Buy America restrictions. It's just coincidence that both Nova Bus and Bombardier have facilities in Plattsburgh, the proximity to both Quebec and New York City happens to be convenient for both companies.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
But in the past you had to see a commercial featuring live on NETWORK tv...45 seconds of pure joy.

Or go to the library and check out burnbaums.

Epcot was a viable advertising platform once as well...it is no longer.

I used the easy parking anology...two months ago pitchforks and torches...now $175 a week at the poly on your visa.

Same with monorails...they could be easily demoed...someday.
That is basically what I was saying, they are still a novelty though and even though they do perform a transportation need other things would work as well. But, they are encased in WDW from day one and for returning visitors they are a must even if they only see them and don't ride on them. They could take a big chance and just eliminate them and in 20 years or so most of the objection would no longer be a problem. They have always been a utility/attraction, just as the Gondola's will be now.
 
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