New Monorail Crash Details

[Phonedave]

I would think they could have some type of radar system. The train would send out a signal (ping) which would alert sensors on the track that they are at/passing a certain point on the track. The sensors would then be tied back to a central command. This would no rely on any sat. signals, and each car could have a sensor in case one or more failed. This system would be completely internal to disney, so there would be any static from other systems.

Ok, I know, these aren't installed so they wont help. Just curious to why the happiest / "one of" the safest places on earth just hadn't thought of it.

PS - I am a tech dork. Sorry to kind of hijack the thread.

I really do not think you mean radar. What you are describing is no where close to radar, but is quite similar to the MAPO system in place now, just a but more advanced and with more granulatrity.

You could in fact do it with a simple copper wire, and a transmitter on each train. Have each train transmit a unique time coded signal pulse. A small packet - Ground speed, Heading, Transmittal time (tied to a master clock), and unique train ID.

Your receiver knows the characteristics of the copper wire. and can compute from the arrival time of the packet, the position of the train on the system.

-dave

 

[mastif]

Now I am not a CM, so I don't know what exactly the case would be, but....

I would think, if it's late at night. Most guests have left, and you are just waiting to finish up, maybe they platform CMs and standing there talking to each other. Maybe they are sweeping up. Maybe they are not LOOKING at the track. Maybe they were. I don't know. All I am saying is that if their backs are turned, I can see how they would miss the fact that Pink was traveling in the direction the expected it to, but on the wrong beam.

Again, I don't know how it is with monorail, but with trains it is very suprising how fast they sneak up on you. When I was trained to work in the Railroad ROW, they do a test. You stand to the side, facing away, and raise your hand when you hear the train approaching you from behind. By the time you raise your hand, its on top of you. I you are looking away from the monorail beam, and the train comes through the station, I can understand how it may be through and gone before a person would notice it was on the wrong beam.

-dave

I'd also like to add that not only was it the end of the night, it was the end of july 4th. Being a CM I know how they work you. I've worked 12 to almost 14 hour shifts before and had to be at work the next morning. I'm willing to bet Adam and most of the other CM there worked 10+ hour shifts of massive july 4th crowds. CM fatigue could also be a factor IMO. Is it possible they would restrict the amount of hours a pilot can work in one shift?

 

[petersenjp]

I really do not think you mean radar. What you are describing is no where close to radar, but is quite similar to the MAPO system in place now, just a but more advanced and with more granulatrity.

You could in fact do it with a simple copper wire, and a transmitter on each train. Have each train transmit a unique time coded signal pulse. A small packet - Ground speed, Heading, Transmittal time (tied to a master clock), and unique train ID.

Your receiver knows the characteristics of the copper wire. and can compute from the arrival time of the packet, the position of the train on the system.

-dave

Sorry for using the wrong terminology. I know radars use radio waves, I was just trying make a generalization.

 

[Phonedave]

Sorry for using the wrong terminology. I know radars use radio waves, I was just trying make a generalization.

No problem.

I can picture them installing old military fire control radar sets in the monorails.

It's just a matter where do you mount the radio masts.

 

[Timon]

Tracking for monorails is very simple using RFID tags. In the simplest form the trains could be tagged and key points fed back to Control. Also, if a pair of relievers was used on two adjacent posts, train speed could be calculated.

Advancing this a little further if each train could transmit a system status to Control and read RFID's mounted on each post, Control would know everything about each train down to the nearest post. If the trains could receive data, too, then each pilot could see a map regarding the location of the other trains. This would also mean Orders from Control could be in Text to avoid confusion.

 

[lightboy]

I wouldn't want such a GPS-based system to be tied into emergency control of the train, though. GPS is an inexact technology, and would be too prone to false E-stops.

Actually incorrect Rob

GPS, depending on the level of equipment used, is extremely accurate. The ones for your car though, are not as accurate, but getting there. However even civilian applications have access to technology that keeps the precision within 15ft or so. GPS solutions are now guiding your airplane from point A to point B, in many circumstances (although different frequencies). They are even extremely precise for use in some instrument approaches...all the way to a decision height (point in which a pilot must make visual confirmation of a runway and commit to a landing attempt).

That's good enough in my book...and good enough in the eyes of the NTSB who oversee MANY rail systems that rely on GPS. However...the GPS, I believe would not be as effective inside stations where a clear view of the sky is hard to come by...but I'm sure they have solutions.

IT SHOULD BE NOTED HOWEVER...That no safety system (as that one article said as well) should be completely depended on...in circumstances where there is a driver. Visual awareness is still number one and key...and should be relied upon first and foremost when operating ANY vehicle. Whether it be a car or a plane or a bus or a monorail. In a non-fully-automated system, the PERSON should be the primary safety, with a safety system as a backup. And it should be trained as such. NOT the other way around.

I hate to say it though, but in an automated solution, a computer with ride logic built-in, would account for all moving track pieces, train separation, online and offline bound trains, and more. This is the same logic built into systems for roller coasters and airport train shuttle systems around the country. Extremely accurate...an accident like this would not have happened if a computer was running the system...although each system has a person monitoring the system at all times...and responds simultaneously with the computer to errors and warnings. I would ask anyone to google this, and find me an accident from ANY completely automated train solution that was past its R&D and testing phases.

BUT, I would never suggest it. It wasn't Walt's vision, he wanted pilots. But a hybrid system could prevail...I believe I read that Tokyo's monorail system is automated, however has a pilot as backup. Yep, takes the fun out of it, but also the safest solution. Safest...and statistics prove that...that isn't a word I'm just throwing around on my own.

A computer doesn't take breaks or leave property for dinner

Speaking of dinner...

 

[mastif]

Actually incorrect Rob

A computer doesn't take breaks or leave property for dinner

Speaking of dinner...

no but they do freeze quite often....

 

[board57796]

Actually incorrect Rob

GPS, depending on the level of equipment used, is extremely accurate. The ones for your car though, are not as accurate, but getting there. However even civilian applications have access to technology that keeps the precision within 15ft or so. GPS solutions are now guiding your airplane from point A to point B, in many circumstances (although different frequencies). They are even extremely precise for use in some instrument approaches...all the way to a decision height (point in which a pilot must make visual confirmation of a runway and commit to a landing attempt).

That's good enough in my book...and good enough in the eyes of the NTSB who oversee MANY rail systems that rely on GPS. However...the GPS, I believe would not be as effective inside stations where a clear view of the sky is hard to come by...but I'm sure they have solutions.

IT SHOULD BE NOTED HOWEVER...That no safety system (as that one article said as well) should be completely depended on...in circumstances where there is a driver. Visual awareness is still number one and key...and should be relied upon first and foremost when operating ANY vehicle. Whether it be a car or a plane or a bus or a monorail. In a non-fully-automated system, the PERSON should be the primary safety, with a safety system as a backup. And it should be trained as such. NOT the other way around.

I hate to say it though, but in an automated solution, a computer with ride logic built-in, would account for all moving track pieces, train separation, online and offline bound trains, and more. This is the same logic built into systems for roller coasters and airport train shuttle systems around the country. Extremely accurate...an accident like this would not have happened if a computer was running the system...although each system has a person monitoring the system at all times...and responds simultaneously with the computer to errors and warnings. I would ask anyone to google this, and find me an accident from ANY completely automated train solution that was past its R&D and testing phases.

BUT, I would never suggest it. It wasn't Walt's vision, he wanted pilots. But a hybrid system could prevail...I believe I read that Tokyo's monorail system is automated, however has a pilot as backup. Yep, takes the fun out of it, but also the safest solution. Safest...and statistics prove that...that isn't a word I'm just throwing around on my own.

A computer doesn't take breaks or leave property for dinner

Speaking of dinner...

What about this? http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a.iir8tu5ZM0 I know that there was still a driver, but at the time of that accident the train was running in "Fully Automatic" mode, she was just along for the ride. In fact, the accident could have been much worse but she was there to hit the emergency brakes.

And which statistics would these be?

Any statistics you would have looked at prior to July 4, 2009 would have shown that the WDW Monorail System was one of the safest transport systems in the world. 150,000 people per day, for 38 years, and no fatalities? Also keep that in mind when you say that Automated Trains are the end-all for accidents. Had someone been told to "google" a WDW Monorail fatality before July 5th, they would have only found a 38 year span of time with no accidents. That, obviously, didnt mean one couldnt happen. Same with automated trains. You never know what tomorrow may hold.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a.iir8tu5ZM0

 

[luckyeye13]

I hate to say it though, but in an automated solution, a computer with ride logic built-in, would account for all moving track pieces, train separation, online and offline bound trains, and more. This is the same logic built into systems for roller coasters and airport train shuttle systems around the country. Extremely accurate...an accident like this would not have happened if a computer was running the system...although each system has a person monitoring the system at all times...and responds simultaneously with the computer to errors and warnings. I would ask anyone to google this, and find me an accident from ANY completely automated train solution that was past its R&D and testing phases.

Here's an accident involving an automated system (one without switches, no less). In November 2008, one of the trains of the Satellite Transit Shuttle at Concourse E in Miami International Airport overran its stop point and crashed into the buffer at the end of the track. Although, thankfully, there were no fatalities, there were a number of injuries due to this accident.

 

[board57796]

Here's an accident involving an automated system (one without switches, no less). In November 2008, one of the trains of the Satellite Transit Shuttle at Concourse E in Miami International Airport overran its stop point and crashed into the buffer at the end of the track. Although, thankfully, there were no fatalities, there were a number of injuries due to this accident.

Hadn't heard about that:

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/11/29/Five-hurt-in-Miami-airport-train-accident/UPI-14761227983264/

 

[Lisalyn]

I think....

We need to stop trying to find somebody to blame and just fix the problem so it doesn't occur again in the future.:shrug:

Nuff said.

 

[board57796]

We need to stop trying to find somebody to blame and just fix the problem so it doesn't occur again in the future.:shrug:

Nuff said.

We have. No more MAPO override in reverse. Period. If a Pilot is overriding that safety system as part of normal procedure, they WILL be able to see where they are going.

 

[lightboy]

(1) Computers freeze. Slightly ignorant. Computers like the one you're sitting at right now do not run ride and transit systems. They are run off of supercomputers with the utmost of redundancy.

(2) Miami Airport...Miami-Dade later said faulty brakes were also involved. At that point, there's nothing a person OR a system could have helped. Poor maintenance. The system was also antiquated, at almost THIRTY years old. That also doesn't apply here.

(3) The DC Crash...again, antiquated system. The NTSB has later ruled that a faulty circuit should have been replaced. I might give you that one. Even though...the system was MANY years old without an update or a rehab. It's also important to note that this system had NO anti-collision backup system installed in line with the antiquated auto-train mode system. All newer systems come standard with this safety equipment. Such as ones from Bombardier...who coincidently manufacturers the current monorails.

(4) While I AM a monorail lover...I can take a step back...unlike many other people here. Yes, the safety has been great for X amount of years. That is WONDERFUL news. Two main issues I still see:

*No matter which way you turn it, it's antiquated technology compared to today's transit standards. Extremely antiquated.

*Again...am a monorail lover...and while the hundreds of thousands that have traveled on Disney Monorails is impressive...it's not THAT massive. When you compare that to city transit systems and airport transit systems that pummel Disney's rider numbers...it's GOOD it's that low.

I'm not BLAMING anything in my posts. I have my own views on the accident I've shared in similar threads. I am however offering my two cents opinion based on my educated knowledge of other transit systems into this thread...and other technology available in the world today...that Disney does not opt into (whether it be because of time or cost involved with installing such a system). There's better stuff out there, that's all I'm saying. Whether it be GPS or RFID, or whatever...

MAPO systems and gear is antiquated and doesn't keep up with today's times. Don't believe me? When FULL ride rehabs happen at Disney, the MAPO gear controlling them is the first to get torn out.

(Mind you...MAPO is NOT proprietary to the Monorail. MAPO is the division that manufactured everything for Disney back in the day.)

 

[lightboy]

And which statistics would these be?

Any statistics you would have looked at prior to July 4, 2009 would have shown that the WDW Monorail System was one of the safest transport systems in the world. 150,000 people per day, for 38 years, and no fatalities? Also keep that in mind when you say that Automated Trains are the end-all for accidents. Had someone been told to "google" a WDW Monorail fatality before July 5th, they would have only found a 38 year span of time with no accidents. That, obviously, didnt mean one couldnt happen. Same with automated trains. You never know what tomorrow may hold.

Perhaps I left out a small tidbit of my statistics challenge...

Any FULLY automatic train system with technology of today's standards. Both examples provided are systems at or OVER thirty years old. Like the Monorail...it's technology that is way beyond antiquated.

Again, one of the safest...YES. Has there been accidents on record? YES. But again, I would HOPE that it is safe...it's only twelve trains, and just under fifteen miles of track...with no switches in normal operation.

I've been incredibly supportive of your posts and insight Board...but do not take my posts out of context! Yes, your personal feelings about the subject are, without a doubt, strong...due to your nature to the accident. But...

Just because something works for a long time time without a serious accident, doesn't make it safe.

Time moves on, technology progresses, and we get smarter. Don't believe me? Go ride the golfball!

 

[board57796]

Perhaps I left out a small tidbit of my statistics challenge...

Any FULLY automatic train system with technology of today's standards. Both examples provided are systems at or OVER thirty years old. Like the Monorail...it's technology that is way beyond antiquated.

Again, one of the safest...YES. Has there been accidents on record? YES. But again, I would HOPE that it is safe...it's only twelve trains, and just under fifteen miles of track...with no switches in normal operation.

I've been incredibly supportive of your posts and insight Board...but do not take my posts out of context! Yes, your personal feelings about the subject are, without a doubt, strong...due to your nature to the accident. But...

Just because something works for a long time time without a serious accident, doesn't make it safe.

Time moves on, technology progresses, and we get smarter. Don't believe me? Go ride the golfball!

No doubt, I am a bit "touchy" about the subject, and I try to edit my posts as I type them, and sometimes they may come across as rude, and if they do I am sorry for that. I didn't mean to take your post out of context.

I guess my thought is that, while we have antiquated equipment, the root cause of this accident was procedural, not equipment. Will we need new systems eventually? Of course, but for now the "simple fix" (and I REALLY hate using that term) is to change our procedures.

I hope to have you in my cab some day, once/if they allow that again. It's always nice to have Monorail-lovers up there :wave:

No offense intended in any of my posts.

And trust me, I am the first person to go complain to Managers when I see a procedural/safety issue!

 

[disney9752]

bump!!

i know this is an old thread there has been some debate recent among friends & i cant find the answer although i think i know. Purple was holding out side the station & pink passed thru it in reverse & hit purple, or purple was pulling into the station & was hit as pink was reversing thru.???:brick:

 

[Rob562]

i know this is an old thread there has been some debate recent among friends & i cant find the answer although i think i know. Purple was holding out side the station & pink passed thru it in reverse & hit purple, or purple was pulling into the station & was hit as pink was reversing thru.???:brick:

Purple was approaching the station as Pink was reversing through it.

-Rob

 

[PhotoDave219]

i know this is an old thread there has been some debate recent among friends & i cant find the answer although i think i know. Purple was holding out side the station & pink passed thru it in reverse & hit purple, or purple was pulling into the station & was hit as pink was reversing thru.???:brick:

Then you didn't search hard enough because it was posted a lot.

Pink backed through the station and hit the non moving purple train.

NTSB Factual Statement

 

[miles1]

As long as the thread has been bumped, I was wondering if anyone knew how Pink's driver was doing. Hopefully he's recovered and returned to work in some capacity?

 

[worldfanatic]

As long as the thread has been bumped, I was wondering if anyone knew how Pink's driver was doing. Hopefully he's recovered and returned to work in some capacity?

I'm not as kind as you.
While not completely his fault, he takes a major share of the blame in Austin's death.
Personally, I'd prefer he has nothing to do with Disney ever again.
Sorry, that's my opinion.