New Monorail Crash Details

[castevens]

The new person I feel sorry for is the coordinator who had to go home sick. Sounds like it must have been urgent. You know that person has to be feeling guilty for leaving, even though the illness may have been totally legitimate.

And imagine the guilt if the illness was *not* totally legitimate. We've all gotten off work a little early for illnesses, but probably could have stayed until the end of the shift. Usually someone doesn't die when this happens...

 

[nolatron]

Or just install back up cameras with proximity detectors for an added measure of safety.

Or just make it a two-man job like real railroads do with a conductor and engineer.

 

[fosse76]

And imagine the guilt if the illness was *not* totally legitimate. We've all gotten off work a little early for illnesses, but probably could have stayed until the end of the shift. Usually someone doesn't die when this happens...

While that CM might feel guilty, we don't know that anything would have been different if he'd stayed. If the only thing they rely on that the track has been switched is the CM responsible for switching the track saying so, then the manager being present wouldn't have mattered, unless before he relays instructions he has to visually inspect the track to confirm it was switched...which is unlikely.

 

[Salty-]

I have a question for all current/former Pilots and those monorail hobbyists in the know.
These may have been answered in other threads but there are a little too many threads now for me to keep up with.

1. Am I correct in thinking that when a monorail is switched to another beam it first pulls into the station? All passengers disembark at this point?

2. The monorail is then piloted forward to a specific stopping point, the switch is moved to allow the monorail to move to another beam. The monorail moves to the other beam in reverse. Does the pilot change to the forward facing position after this or does the entire trip done all in reverse?

3. If there is a switch of piloting cabs, why not switch cabs when the passengers disembark, go in reverse to the stopping point and then proceed forward? Would this allow visual (not electronic) confirmation of being on the right beam and then continue "forward-facing" for the rest of the journey?

I think I'm missing a gap in the procedure and thanks in advance for "dumbing it down" for me and us park-goers.

 

[castevens]

2. The monorail is then piloted forward to a specific stopping point, the switch is moved to allow the monorail to move to another beam. The monorail moves to the other beam in reverse. Does the pilot change to the forward facing position after this or does the entire trip done all in reverse?

There is no way for the monorail pilot to get to the other cab when changing direction, as there is no way to walk between cars. The pilot would have to disembark (not an easy feat when not in a station) and move to the other cab

 

[castevens]

3. If there is a switch of piloting cabs, why not switch cabs when the passengers disembark, go in reverse to the stopping point and then proceed forward? Would this allow visual (not electronic) confirmation of being on the right beam and then continue "forward-facing" for the rest of the journey?

It's a good idea, and would have prevented this specific accident, but that just opens the door for the opposite accident (hitting a train when getting to the switchpoint in reverse. There's no 100% visual confirmation without a pilot in each cab

 

[board57796]

I have a question for all current/former Pilots and those monorail hobbyists in the know.
These may have been answered in other threads but there are a little too many threads now for me to keep up with.

1. Am I correct in thinking that when a monorail is switched to another beam it first pulls into the station? All passengers disembark at this point?

2. The monorail is then piloted forward to a specific stopping point, the switch is moved to allow the monorail to move to another beam. The monorail moves to the other beam in reverse. Does the pilot change to the forward facing position after this or does the entire trip done all in reverse?

3. If there is a switch of piloting cabs, why not switch cabs when the passengers disembark, go in reverse to the stopping point and then proceed forward? Would this allow visual (not electronic) confirmation of being on the right beam and then continue "forward-facing" for the rest of the journey?

I think I'm missing a gap in the procedure and thanks in advance for "dumbing it down" for me and us park-goers.

1. Correct, NO PASSENGERS are allowed in ANY train while it is going over a switch, no exceptions.

2. As it has been done (until the accident), the pilot leaves the Concourse station in Forward, goes to a certain point, then reverses through the switch that is (supposed to be) thrown behind him.

3. This is how the procedure will be done now, from what I have heard. The train will still be driven in "reverse" but following the main direction of the beam. Therefore there will be no need to use MAPO Override while driving in reverse, and no reason the train wouldnt EStop itself if it got too close to another train.

 

[Rob562]

I have a question for all current/former Pilots and those monorail hobbyists in the know.
These may have been answered in other threads but there are a little too many threads now for me to keep up with.

1. Am I correct in thinking that when a monorail is switched to another beam it first pulls into the station? All passengers disembark at this point?

Switching a monorail between beams is never done with passengers aboard.

2. The monorail is then piloted forward to a specific stopping point, the switch is moved to allow the monorail to move to another beam. The monorail moves to the other beam in reverse. Does the pilot change to the forward facing position after this or does the entire trip done all in reverse?

That's how it moves from the Epcot beam to the Express beam, yes. Not all switching movements follow this procedure. It depends on the from/to pair of beams.
As for when the pilot changes from one cab to the other, it depends on what will be happening with the train after the switch is completed. In Pink's case the night of the accident, he was cleared to continue in reverse ALLLLLL the way around to the MK station, where he'd switch ends in order to drive the train forward into the Shop.

3. If there is a switch of piloting cabs, why not switch cabs when the passengers disembark, go in reverse to the stopping point and then proceed forward? Would this allow visual (not electronic) confirmation of being on the right beam and then continue "forward-facing" for the rest of the journey?

Yes, the practice you describe would work.

But, in order to switch from one cab to the other, it requires them to "reboot" the train. This procedure takes 5-10 minutes. That night, they knew they had Purple behind Pink with passengers on it. If Pink were to switch ends in Concourse (the TTC Epcot beam station), Purple would have had to sit out on the track waiting for Pink to reboot and then drive "backwards" out of the station to the switch point. The froward-then-reverse procedure was to allow Purple to pull into Concourse and disembark its passengers.

As I've mentioned in the other thread, I think the better option might be to make this reposition with two CMs. Have one in each cab. The first drives forward out of the station past the switch. They shut down the train out on the beam, and then driver #2 boots the train up from the other end and drives forward through the switch. (this can also be done while Central and Shop are working on getting the beam switched, saving at least a little time) The unneeded second pilot can then disembark when they get over to Express. It would also allow the second train behind the first to pull into the Concourse station.

-Rob

 

[joel_maxwell]

Or just make it a two-man job like real railroads do with a conductor and engineer.

2 man job.... *evil laughs* that would require someone else being on the clock. Reverse cameras would pay for themselves quickly. Seriously, if some large street vehicles and SUV's have them, i think monorails could use them.

The normal switching procedure requires the train to travel out past the switch and then change directions and go back through the switch. Whether the driver switches cabs before or after the switch they are still traveling in reverse part of the way.

yeh. I thought of that a few moments after posting.

 

[wdwemployee13]

I figured this deserved its own post.

If this new Orlando Sentinel article is to be believed (and I think it is), it was the maintenance shop worker who screwed up by telling the manager that the track switch had been flipped, when in fact it had not.

Also, when the central coordinator suddenly had to go home sick, the manager WAS ALREADY AT PERKINS, which was allowed during his scheduled dinner break.

While waiting for the replacement for that sick coordinator to arrive, the manager did radio some instructions from Perkins (again, that doesn't sound like it was against any rule, especially considering the "emergency" nature of an employee suddenly going home sick at that very moment)

Here's the article:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/orl-d...tory?track=rss


So, let's see. People on these boards first blamed Austin for being young and causing the crash. Then they blamed Pink's driver. Then they blamed this manager for "negligently" going off-property on an unauthorized dinner break. None of which appears to be true.

The new person I feel sorry for is the coordinator who had to go home sick. Sounds like it must have been urgent. You know that person has to be feeling guilty for leaving, even though the illness may have been totally legitimate.

The manager is at fault for the crash, not because he went off during his schelduled break, but for giving instruction to an unexperienced worker over the radio. The maintence worker had no clue what he was doing. Monorail Pink should have remained active until the manager returned.

 

[Bluewaves]

Sounds like its time for a big shake up there in Orlando, time to get the Monorails and the whole resort back up to par, alot of sloppiness in general down there that needs to change and change fast.

 

[jakeman]

The manager is at fault for the crash, not because he went off during his schelduled break, but for giving instruction to an unexperienced worker over the radio. The maintence worker had no clue what he was doing. Monorail Pink should have remained active until the manager returned.

So you know that the worker was inexperienced and this directly contributed to the crash?

 

[Figments Friend]

Indeed. Like I said in the main accident thread, when a Pilot hears "clear" from Central, that is as good as gold as the pilot is concerned. When Central hears shop say the switches were moved, that is as good as gold as far as Central is concerned. Its a routine that has been practiced night after night for years, and for some reason, on that night, the switch wasn't moved. Central had no reason to doubt shop, just as Pink had [relatively] no reason to doubt Central. Someone in that thread mentioned that, in law enforcement, you all rely on each other to give you accurate information. For 38 years, that information was generally accurate, and had never resulted in an accident.

Unfortunately for the manager, the public already has their opinion formed, because it was reported he was at Denny's during the accident. Did they care to ask whether it was his break time? No, because it "sounded bad" and I know how the media likes to report things that sound shocking.

Well said Board. It is dangerous ( and hurtful to some) to have folks jump to conclusions when-

A- They do NOT know all the information about the incident

B- Are not 100% familair with how operations actually work and what they involve

and ..

C- They forget about all the CM's effected by this tragety...and how this 'fingerpointing' can slow up the healing process


Please folks- Think about the CM's trying to deal with this.



I am very thankful to have Board, Mr. Epcot, HardCard, and others here giving us clear insights into the issue.

I salute you all!

 

[Figments Friend]

Austin = Cleared
Pink Driver = Cleared
Monorail Central = Cleared
System = Cleared
Maintenance Worker = You got some splainin' to do..



Thats the summary of where the investigation lies.

Yeah, i would agree.

I'm sure it will only be a matter of time before we see a thread all about the 'Maintenance Worker'....

 

[natatomic]

^But is there a possibility that the switch simply malfunctioned? Maybe the maintenance guy pushed the button/pulled the lever/whatever, and something went wrong with the beam itself?

I know nothing of how the switches work, so maybe this isn't even possible - I've just not yet heard anyone mention this theory.

 

[board57796]

^But is there a possibility that the switch simply malfunctioned? Maybe the maintenance guy pushed the button/pulled the lever/whatever, and something went wrong with the beam itself?

I know nothing of how the switches work, so maybe this isn't even possible - I've just not yet heard anyone mention this theory.

Technically possible, but I believe the NTSB has ruled that out.

 

[JWG]

Technically possible, but I believe the NTSB has ruled that out.

Plus, said "switch switcher" should have verified. So unless the switch failed to move AND the indicator in the shop of where the switch was failed (indicating it had moved when it hadn't), then I still scream foul.

 

[Syntho_Magnetic]

A good article with some inside perspective:http://www.mouseplanet.com/8909/Car...e_for_fatal_crash_on_sloppiness_and_shortcuts

One key sentence I picked out here was, "'three overrun' limit, meaning she managed to get her train dangerously close to another train on three separate occasions within two years."

In some ways, I always thought three strikes in a career and you're out was a bit harsh, after all points on a driver's license go away, but just curious if they changed this from lifetime to two years?

 

[Ralphlaw]

You know, one of the heroes of my home town was a Civil War veteran named James Anderson. He survived the Civil War, and became a respected, careful and thorough Judge. An admirable man in every respect who thought about everything he undertook in life. He died crossing a street in 1903 when a bicycle hit him--coincidentally, 38 years after the Civil War ended.

Now, even the most careful people make mistakes, and even the best systems fail. I feel awful about this tragedy for Austin's sake, but it is axiomatic that mistakes happen, and that anyone who is trying to do something or accomplish anything in life is going to have things go wrong. This tragedy is one of those things. 100% safety is impossible to achieve, and any system is going to have unforeseen things go wrong when a perfect storm of coincidental events takes place.

The only way to avoid a monorail accident is to never build a monorail in the first place. The only way to avoid a bicycle when crossing the street is to never again cross a street. Immobility is safe, but it does not get you anywhere--literally.

Blaming the bicyclist, or workers who generally perform their jobs competently, may be appropriate at times when they knowingly screwed up. But finding a quick scapegoat to feel better accomplishes nothing good.

 

[mastif]

I was just browsing youtube. I would like to say there are some really good tribute videos of footage of adam piloting the train. Really sad but I thought I'd share that.