New Monorail Crash Details

[prberk]

I'm still interested to hear from the Pink Driver as to why he didn't notice he was on the wrong track as soon as he passed the switch.

According to google earth, from the EPCOT Spur switch to the TTC is approximately 1,250' (1/4 of a mile) on the mainline. A Monorail is about 200' long.

So as his cab passed the switch, the rear of the monorail was about still 1,000' from the TTC. At 15mph it's roughly a 45 second trip to the TTC after he cleared the switch.

I'm interested to learn why he didn't notice the spur was still on his left side and not the mainline on the right primarily as soon he crossed the switch and then during the 45 second trip to the TTC. Was it too dark? Was a cab light on (which could practically kill any view outside of the window)? Was he doing something else in the cab?

These pics that I took with a zoom lens that day from the Contemporary should help...

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26141&d=1246981394

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26142&d=1246981411

Paul

 

[BadTigger]

I think this is my favorite part of the story and really shows the biggest issue I had when I was a CP

But workers with kill packs are typically walking the station platform and are trained to be on the lookout for passenger-related situations, such as someone dropping something onto the track, rather than monitoring trains.

So many times I would hear "Its not my job" when I was a CP, to the point where I got yelled at for tightening a screw on the bottom of a chair backstage because it wasn't my job and I shouldn't have tightened a screw. It just baffles me that no one on the platform noticed a freaking MONORAIL train going the wrong direction.

 

[Rob562]

So many times I would hear "Its not my job" when I was a CP, to the point where I got yelled at for tightening a screw on the bottom of a chair backstage because it wasn't my job and I shouldn't have tightened a screw.

Well, I guess it depends on how strict the unions are. Fixing a chair would fall under maintenance. Someone *other* than maintenance fixing the chair could be considered taking work away from a union position. Most unions, though, aren't that -retentive about things like that, and leave things up to common sense.

It just baffles me that no one on the platform noticed a freaking MONORAIL train going the wrong direction.

I believe it was posted that at that time of night (2AM) with all parks now closed, the Concourse station was most likely empty of platform CMs, or perhaps just a single CM. With no incoming Guests needing to get on the Epcot line, there would be no need to staff the load platform, and the monorail pilot would be in charge of clearing the train and the unload side while his train was in the station.

So if there was only one platform CM there, and they didn't notice the train coming (no headlamp shining out the back of the train makes it harder to see, just the colored strobe blinking at the back end), they may not have realized it. Or, they were looking in the other direction, in anticipation of the arrival of Purple, never expecting a train to possibly be coming from the wrong direction into the station.

-Rob

 

[Phonedave]

Well, I guess it depends on how strict the unions are. Fixing a chair would fall under maintenance. Someone *other* than maintenance fixing the chair could be considered taking work away from a union position. Most unions, though, aren't that -retentive about things like that, and leave things up to common sense.

You must have different union experences than I have.

In the number of unions I have either been in or supervised people of, thats exactly how they are.



-dave

 

[Phonedave]

I believe it was posted that at that time of night (2AM) with all parks now closed, the Concourse station was most likely empty of platform CMs, or perhaps just a single CM. With no incoming Guests needing to get on the Epcot line, there would be no need to staff the load platform, and the monorail pilot would be in charge of clearing the train and the unload side while his train was in the station.

So if there was only one platform CM there, and they didn't notice the train coming (no headlamp shining out the back of the train makes it harder to see, just the colored strobe blinking at the back end), they may not have realized it. Or, they were looking in the other direction, in anticipation of the arrival of Purple, never expecting a train to possibly be coming from the wrong direction into the station.

-Rob

It also was not going the wrong direction. It was going the correct direction on the wrong beam.

-dave

 

[hardcard]

It also was not going the wrong direction. It was going the correct direction on the wrong beam.

-dave

ok.. thats just another way of saying it was going the wrong direction.....

Really... come on.. no one is saying it's the Pink drivers fault, but the train was on the wrong track, and traveling in the wrong direction on that track.... End of story.

 

[petersenjp]

I have to question something...And I know this is an "after the fact" thing...is there no technology out there that can alert drivers of other trains on the same rail, or show a gps map of were the monorails in relationship to where you are?

 

[Rob562]

It also was not going the wrong direction. It was going the correct direction on the wrong beam.

-dave

So someone driving their car northbound in the southbound lanes of the interstate *isn't* "going in the wrong direction"? :shrug:

-Rob

 

[Rob562]

I have to question something...And I know this is an "after the fact" thing...is there no technology out there that can alert drivers of other trains on the same rail, or show a gps map of were the monorails in relationship to where you are?

Yes there is. To take your question in two parts:

Under *normal* operating conditions, the MAPO blocklight system would indicate to BOTH trains that they were heading for a colision in such an instance. But because the MAPO override was being used by both trains for different reasons, the safety factor of that system was eliminated. Pink was using the override to back through the switch onto the Epcot spur (which is what was supposed to happen), when in fact the override was disabling the "train too close" alert. (To the train, both the spur line and the train appear as a red light. Going strictly by that light, there's no way of telling the difference).

There are GPS-based systems that could report the whereabouts of the trains, but they are not installed on the monorail. I forsee such a system being considered in the very near future. Whether it just reports train locations to Monorail Central and the Shop, or whether they go the extra mile and install it so it can be seen from the monorail driver's console, I don't know. I wouldn't want such a GPS-based system to be tied into emergency control of the train, though. GPS is an inexact technology, and would be too prone to false E-stops.
If I were in charge of installing it on the trains, I'd have a sub-screen that the pilot could pull up on their own to view where other trains are. Plus, that display would be automatically brought up on the screen anytime the train came to a red MAPO light or when the MAPO override button was being used.

You could also go farther and have the monorail report back to the GPS system whenever the MAPO override is being used, so that a special warning is displayed on the map for that train, and it's obviousl to the people in Monorail Central and the other trains that the override is in use.

-Rob

 

[gjohnson66]

You must have different union experences than I have.

In the number of unions I have either been in or supervised people of, thats exactly how they are.



-dave

A-MEN!!! I've had those difficult union experiences as well... :brick:

 

[board57796]

Yes there is. To take your question in two parts:

Under *normal* operating conditions, the MAPO blocklight system would indicate to BOTH trains that they were heading for a colision in such an instance. But because the MAPO override was being used by both trains for different reasons, the safety factor of that system was eliminated. Pink was using the override to back through the switch onto the Epcot spur (which is what was supposed to happen), when in fact the override was disabling the "train too close" alert. (To the train, both the spur line and the train appear as a red light. Going strictly by that light, there's no way of telling the difference).

-Rob

You guys are getting better at answering this than I am!

 

[RiversideBunny]

...Under *normal* operating conditions, the MAPO blocklight system would indicate to BOTH trains that they were heading for a colision in such an instance. But because the MAPO override was being used by both trains for different reasons, the safety factor of that system was eliminated. Pink was using the override to back through the switch onto the Epcot spur (which is what was supposed to happen), when in fact the override was disabling the "train too close" alert. (To the train, both the spur line and the train appear as a red light. Going strictly by that light, there's no way of telling the difference).
.....

There needs to be a way to tell the difference, i.e., two different systems.

IMHO

 

[board57796]

There needs to be a way to tell the difference, i.e., two different systems.

IMHO

Now that switches are ONLY done in forward, I think that will take care of the issue. The pilot will always be able to see "what" is causing the RED Mapo now.

 

[Phonedave]

Yes there is. To take your question in two parts:

Under *normal* operating conditions, the MAPO blocklight system would indicate to BOTH trains that they were heading for a colision in such an instance. But because the MAPO override was being used by both trains for different reasons, the safety factor of that system was eliminated. Pink was using the override to back through the switch onto the Epcot spur (which is what was supposed to happen), when in fact the override was disabling the "train too close" alert. (To the train, both the spur line and the train appear as a red light. Going strictly by that light, there's no way of telling the difference).

There are GPS-based systems that could report the whereabouts of the trains, but they are not installed on the monorail. I forsee such a system being considered in the very near future. Whether it just reports train locations to Monorail Central and the Shop, or whether they go the extra mile and install it so it can be seen from the monorail driver's console, I don't know. I wouldn't want such a GPS-based system to be tied into emergency control of the train, though. GPS is an inexact technology, and would be too prone to false E-stops.
If I were in charge of installing it on the trains, I'd have a sub-screen that the pilot could pull up on their own to view where other trains are. Plus, that display would be automatically brought up on the screen anytime the train came to a red MAPO light or when the MAPO override button was being used.

You could also go farther and have the monorail report back to the GPS system whenever the MAPO override is being used, so that a special warning is displayed on the map for that train, and it's obviousl to the people in Monorail Central and the other trains that the override is in use.

-Rob

Not to mention that GPS is not 100% accurate. It SHOULD be most of the time, but on overcast days even the best ones can have problems.

-dave

 

[Phonedave]

So someone driving their car northbound in the southbound lanes of the interstate *isn't* "going in the wrong direction"? :shrug:

-Rob

OK, think if it this way.

Picture a two lane / two way street.

You tell a car to drive past your house in the northbound lanes to the North end of the block, then change lanes, and then back up down the southbound lane heading South.

You are standing in your driveway, perhaps not looking at the street, but talking to some people, you are expecting the car to be heading South, in reverse, in the southbound lane. The car goes past you, heading the "correct" way - south, and in reverse as you told them to. However they are in the northbound lanes. Unless you notice what lane they are in, they appear to be heading in the correct direction in the correct orientation.

Thats what I was getting at when I said it was heading in the correct direction. The CMs at the station expected it to enter one side and exit the other, and that is indeed what it did, but on the wrong rail.

-dave

 

[Phonedave]

ok.. thats just another way of saying it was going the wrong direction.....

Really... come on.. no one is saying it's the Pink drivers fault, but the train was on the wrong track, and traveling in the wrong direction on that track.... End of story.

See my response above.

My comment about it going in the "correct" direction was more to how the CMs at the station would not notice the problem as the train went though the station.

It was traveling in the direction that the CMs in the station were expecting it to be moving. Maybe thats better wording than right and wrong.

-dave

 

[Rob562]

It was traveling in the direction that the CMs in the station were expecting it to be moving. Maybe thats better wording than right and wrong.

True. But by the time the train was finishing its curve to the station, the two beams have diverged enough that if someone on either platform were looking in that direction, it should be visible that the train was not on the correct beam and that a train coming backwards into the Concourse station was *not* a normal occurrance.

-Rob

 

[petersenjp]

Not to mention that GPS is not 100% accurate. It SHOULD be most of the time, but on overcast days even the best ones can have problems.

-dave

I would think they could have some type of radar system. The train would send out a signal (ping) which would alert sensors on the track that they are at/passing a certain point on the track. The sensors would then be tied back to a central command. This would no rely on any sat. signals, and each car could have a sensor in case one or more failed. This system would be completely internal to disney, so there would be any static from other systems.

Ok, I know, these aren't installed so they wont help. Just curious to why the happiest / "one of" the safest places on earth just hadn't thought of it.

PS - I am a tech dork. Sorry to kind of hijack the thread.

 

[hrcollectibles]

Very interesting that the person was already there at the Denny's/Perkins/whatever. I will admit I thought it was his fault.


This is such a breakdown of procedure, I think... So many things went wrong that night.

Yes sadly it appears it was a perfect storm for tragedy

 

[Phonedave]

True. But by the time the train was finishing its curve to the station, the two beams have diverged enough that if someone on either platform were looking in that direction, it should be visible that the train was not on the correct beam and that a train coming backwards into the Concourse station was *not* a normal occurrance.

-Rob

Now I am not a CM, so I don't know what exactly the case would be, but....

I would think, if it's late at night. Most guests have left, and you are just waiting to finish up, maybe the platform CMs are standing there talking to each other. Maybe they are sweeping up. Maybe they are not LOOKING at the track. Maybe they were. I don't know. All I am saying is that if their backs are turned, I can see how they would miss the fact that Pink was traveling in the direction they expected it to, but on the wrong beam.

Again, I don't know how it is with monorail, but with trains it is very suprising how fast they sneak up on you. When I was trained to work in the Railroad ROW, they do a test. You stand to the side, facing away, and raise your hand when you hear the train approaching you from behind. By the time you raise your hand, its on top of you. If you are looking away from the monorail beam, and the train comes through the station, I can understand how it may be through the station and gone before a person would notice it was on the wrong beam.

-dave