New Jim Hill article

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Another HUGE hole in the story...why does the "Imagineer" call it Toy Story Mania when I've heard firsthand that the Imagineers hate the name, hence why the REAL name for both attractions are Toy Story MIDWAY Mania.
:hammer:

I was wondering about that too. The name Midway Mania has already stuck here in California, and with the soft opening in Florida we see that Midway Mania is nomenclature and identifying signage that is also being used at DHS.

Only a Marketing Department drone sticking to scripted "talking points" would call it Toy Story Mania. Someone who has been working on the project would call it Midway Mania.
 
IMO they do... sometimes...

D: Sorry Corrus (and possibly Lee?) I forgot about you guys for a moment. Can you ever forgive lil ol me? : <

Dont mean that Imagineers dont look at forums. But I sort of figure it wont be something of an official evaluation on company time. Plus as I said, if they do happen to look at forums (even sometimes). Then they should have understanding they are walking into fandom, and their work might be under scrutiny. It's nothin personal, just the fans are so passionate about the parks that they care how people take care of it.

I don't trust Jim Hill! He don't know anything about Disney!

I wouldnt go that far. Jim can unearth a lot of info on old projects and abondoned concepts. I learned of Westcot and the Disney Decade though his site and he still has some good articles on this sorta stuff. Sadly a majority of his posts on his site now seem like random discussions about rather small events in relation to Disney. It's like he gets a scrap of info and just rolls it out into one whole post. Ie "Ohnoes Toy Story Mania isnt ready on time and its because imagineers are highly strung people worried about losing jobs" and "theres a recession and this will effect disney somehow"
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
Assuming it was a WDI employee who wrote this and assuming they still have a job they`d know that it isn`t WDIs creative core who get blamed by those who know anything about the parks - it`s management and the bean counters who rightfully get it. Any Imagineer worth their salt knows - as we do - they can only work with what is given to them from above.

It`s either false (not saying JHM knows this), 5 minutes of fame, or a plant from someone trying to get a rather messy across.
IMHO.
 

jakeman

Well-Known Member
Jim Hill: Hey Intern Sally, how was making copies today?

Intern Sally: Good, good, I got done early and looked at some Disney sites. Can you believe what they are saying about TSM?

Jim Hill: Really? I don't look at the internet much. Too many lies there.

Intern Sally: One guy is really mad. Says the sound is off. Probably an annual passholder.

Jim Hill: Yeah those APs are Disney geeks, always complaining...

Intern Sally: You know TSM cost $70 million? I saw that on a page I was copying today.

Jim Hill: Really? Interesting.

Intern Sally: Talk to you later Jim. I'm going to head out to the parks and look for some first time visitors. They always seem happy.

Fifteen minutes later, after a run through the Jim Hill Story Generator...
 

wannab@dis

Well-Known Member
Assuming it was a WDI employee who wrote this and assuming they still have a job they`d know that it isn`t WDIs creative core who get blamed by those who know anything about the parks - it`s management and the bean counters who rightfully get it. Any Imagineer worth their salt knows - as we do - they can only work with what is given to them from above.

It`s either false (not saying JHM knows this), 5 minutes of fame, or a plant from someone trying to get a rather messy across.
IMHO.
Sorry... but that's not accurate at all. I've seen several where they name WDI specifically or say "sloppy imagineering". Most do not differentiate their complaints... they just complain. But, it's not everyone, in fact, it probably falls into the old 80/20 (90/10 around here) rule. 80% of the complaining is by the same 20% of the posters.


The article may be fictional, but the subject matter is spot on. And for those that seem upset about the fanboys not being their target audience... that basically proves out the subject. WDI / Disney have the statistics and the information to know who their target audience consists. I have no doubt that it's NOT forum users. We make up a miniscule percentage of the guests that walk through the parks. The once-in-a-lifetimes guests or those returning after several years probably make up the bulk of the spending guests.
 

jedimaster1227

Active Member
I don't trust Jim Hill! He don't know anything about Disney!

I'd say that is pretty far from the truth. His historical articles are in my opinion, some of the best on the net, only comparable to Martin's videos and Werner Weiss' Yesterland entries. As for his current news stories, I believe they are meant to be taken subjectively. If you believe them, then you do. If you don't, then so be it. Frankly, his site has gone on long enough in the eyes of the Walt Disney Company, as well as those of its fan community to withstand the full force of its dissenters and critics. Really, I almost find this arguement to prove the point that the article was making (though I am in no way pointing fingers, nor am I saying that I have taken a side).

We seem to pick apart attractions, concepts, rumors and the simplest piece of work related to Disney with the most detailed depth, and while that is appreciated by the company, we aren't the target audience. They do care about our community, but they do have to cater to the wider scope.

Going back to Spaceship Earth as an example: I've spoken to several of the Imagineers that worked tirelessly on the refurbishment (as well as collaborating with Siemens' workers to create Project Tomorrow) for well over 2 years. Some of those workers' words over the attraction bled effort, confidence and dedication to preserving and restoring the attraction in the best way they say fit for a general audience. After speaking with them only a week before the attraction began true soft openings, I got to see the vision without critique, as a new guest would walking into Epcot for the first time ever. With the new attraction came a new experience--one I could happily find untainted by outside critique (as well as the negativity that comes with the thought of any new attraction). I rode the new ride twice later that month and for once could enjoy it through and through, because I was, for once, a guest in the target audience for the attraction. Yes, after I rode, I had my own little critiques to make, but I made them carefully knowing that I had thoroughly enjoyed the experience overall, and was more than satisfied with the extremely complicated and trying amount of work that the team at WDI had done to revamp the beloved attraction.

Since that time, I've done everything I can to prevent spoiling an attraction for myself by reading reviews or watching videos, so that for a brief moment, I can once again be a first time visitor with no expectations other than my own--and for that, I feel far more fulfilled as a Disney fan.

Whether or not the comments by the Imagineer were real (I know Jim enough to trust him), I do find a deeper message within the story that I've finally begun to understand over the past year. To me, Disney is about the magical experiences that are unlike any others. To be amazed by something new for the first time, is in my opinion, magic. It is for that kind of magic that I keep going back to the parks...

Just my two bits. :shrug:

(Please note that I am in no way bashing, singling out or meaning to offend any member of this or other communities related, rather just sharing my opinion in the best way I can [via text].)
 

SirNim

Well-Known Member
The only angle by which I think "criticism of the criticism" is justified is like this: Fan complaints may be generated about things that the designers have no control over, thanks to management interference.

Let's use a "baseball organist" as an example. Let's say the president of the baseball team loves a particular acapella recording of the national anthem, and specifically forbids the organist from ever playing an instrumental version of the anthem live before the baseball game. Now, fans at the baseball game want to hear the organ version, but they never hear it. So they blame the organist. "Hey, why doesn't the organist play the anthem?" "The organist probably doesn't know how to play it—what a loser! They should fire him!" The fans blame the organist over something which the organist would do—if he were allowed to.

Likewise, if WDI had a larger budget... or were allowed to experiment and try different things in the attractions... and were not forbidden from doing other things by management—fan criticism of WDI would provoke "criticism of the criticism," because it's over stuff WDI has no control over.

Otherwise, I do believe criticism is always justified, especially on private interet forums. It's not WDI's job to read these websites... it's WDI's job to produce experiences of SUCH HIGH QUALITY that they appeal to annual passholders and to once-in-a-lifetime-vacationing-families alike...

:lookaroun
 
We're actually helping Imagineering out, giving them ideas to use for future attractions and expressing our concerns so they won't make bad attractions and embarise themselves.
 

SDav10495

Member
Just to note something without getting into the arguments I've been reading all day about this--

People have questioned the validity of the WDI e-mail, saying an Imagineer would never write something like that. But anyone notice that the long quotation from that first "Disney World insider" who critiques TSM is the one that sounds an awful lot like Jim Hill's own writing style? I have no anti-JHM agenda and I don't mean to make any outright accusations (plus I'm certainly not a fan of the opposing sentiments put forth in the article, the ones purportedly from someone in WDI)...but the style of that first quote stood out more to me than any other "insider" quote I've read on Jim's site.

Bits just jumped at me like "what with all of the..." and "which -- in the end -- is kind of an empty experience" (does Jim not love to write "which -- [something] -- [something]"? He even does it near the end of this article). And then of course there are the sentence fragments that have bugged me forever about Jim's writing but that have almost become his trademark...case in point: "You're always aware that you're one of many rolling through this 3D shooting gallery. Trying to squeeze off as many shots as possible before you have to move on to the next flat screen."

As I said, I don't want to make any outright accusations...but I can't be the only one to have noticed this. (Come to think of it, I do see the similarities in that second e-mail as well--the first one was just more obvious to me.) Someone suggested that Jim is just paraphrasing the e-mails he's received to protect the writers. If so, that's fine, but he must inform his readership of what he's doing. Right now it just smells fishy.

ETA: The more I read, the more I realize that people have pointed out both e-mails...I was just surprised to see so much more said about the inflammatory WDI e-mail than about the first e-mail, which in my opinion sounds the Jim Hill-iest.
 

EpcotServo

Well-Known Member
ETA: The more I read, the more I realize that people have pointed out both e-mails...I was just surprised to see so much more said about the inflammatory WDI e-mail than about the first e-mail, which in my opinion sounds the Jim Hill-iest.
But none have done it so well, bravo.
:sohappy:
 

imagineer boy

Well-Known Member
The only angle by which I think "criticism of the criticism" is justified is like this: Fan complaints may be generated about things that the designers have no control over, thanks to management interference.

Let's use a "baseball organist" as an example. Let's say the president of the baseball team loves a particular acapella recording of the national anthem, and specifically forbids the organist from ever playing an instrumental version of the anthem live before the baseball game. Now, fans at the baseball game want to hear the organ version, but they never hear it. So they blame the organist. "Hey, why doesn't the organist play the anthem?" "The organist probably doesn't know how to play it—what a loser! They should fire him!" The fans blame the organist over something which the organist would do—if he were allowed to.

Likewise, if WDI had a larger budget... or were allowed to experiment and try different things in the attractions... and were not forbidden from doing other things by management—fan criticism of WDI would provoke "criticism of the criticism," because it's over stuff WDI has no control over.

Well said, but to be quite honest, I don't think I've read that much anti-imagineer posting. Mostly its blamed on upper management. Heck, I always have when something goes wrong. But if Jim Hill's imagineer friend who wrote the rant is real, then I will really be saddened by what has become of WDI.

Otherwise, I do believe criticism is always justified, especially on private interet forums. It's not WDI's job to read these websites... it's WDI's job to produce experiences of SUCH HIGH QUALITY that they appeal to annual passholders and to once-in-a-lifetime-vacationing-families alike...

Well said! You can't just only servey what first time visitors would like. First time visitors would'nt care less if Disney built a huge, unthemed inverted rollercoaster in the middle of the old 20k area. And of course you can't just do what the fans say to do, otherwise they would've built a crappy villains park by now. They need to build attractions that appeal to both sides of the board!
 

daliseurat

Member
With DCA and New Tomorrowland, the management is to blame, not Imagineering. Cynthia Harris and Paul Pressler were notorious for their massive budget cuts and over populating the parks with shops and dining. They slashed DCA's budget in half, resulting in it being a lackluster park, and refused to budget in banked turns and a new track for Rocket Rods. What does Disney do? They promote them. Pressler was president of Disney Parks for a while, and Harris took over Disneyland. They were soon fired (Or as they say, moved on) and went to The GAP, where they continued to mismanage. Don't blame imagineering for faults beyond their control. A lot of this has to do with management, so they truly are doing the best they can with restraints.

Yes. Management and anyone holding purse strings are certainly the bad guys. But just because you have budgets cut doesn't mean you can't still think things through. The Rocket Rods track shook too much and put stress on the buildings. Putting in new banked track wouldn't have been enough. They should have figured out the stress problem way before going forward. They should have figured that people would actually want to get wet in an interactive fountain. And lets not forget that a whole bunch of people including Imagineers are responsible for the wrong specs on the new monorail that couldn't get around the beam. Bob Gurr never would have made these mistakes. As for DCA, so much of it was just bad ideas, bad design and just plain stupidity. I mean really, a tortilla factory tour? Breadmaking? A fake winery? All the blame can't go on the money guys. Imagineering has proven more times than not that they can do so many wonderful things with very little. BUZZ is a pretty cheap ride, but it seems like a major attraction. And it is very re-ridable. The point I'm trying to make is that Imagineering is capable of unbelievable work, so when they produce something with massive flaws that come from the simple fact that they didn't think it out, they need to be reminded that they are better than that. Spaceship Earth is one of those places where they seemed to stop thinking. I get that on the descent they didn't want to distract from the screen. But making a lame presentation on the screen is mistake #1. Not having anything other than blackness is #2. People want to be immersed. A starfield would have been better and not even very expensive.
 

EpcotServo

Well-Known Member
Well said! You can't just only servey what first time visitors would like. First time visitors would'nt care less if Disney built a huge, unthemed inverted rollercoaster in the middle of the old 20k area. And of course you can't just do what the fans say to do, otherwise they would've built a crappy villains park by now. They need to build attractions that appeal to both sides of the board!

I think Midway Mania is like that.

On one hand familes and little kids will love it, and on the other hand it's the second MGM Studios attraction to feature the Mighty Microscope.
:lol:
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
Hey, you're putting out a premium product and charging premium prices. Expect some criticism.

Not to mention inevitably compared to attractions that were top quality before it, or top quality attractions designed by WDI for other parks (like in Tokyo)
 

Enderikari

Well-Known Member
Just a quick note, since a lot of people around here are praising Imagineers almost unconditionally. Now there are some fantastic Imagineers that work in the Disney Company. Creative geniuses who are equal to none. But it seems that in the recent years, anytime anything isn't liked by the general internet going public, there is a lot of defensive statements for the Imagineers, with a major portion of the blame going to whom the armchair internet imagineers call "Bean-Counters."

You wanna blame the "bean-counters" for the quality of attractions, go ahead. Stick out your lip, pout, and cite "not having enough money to do the job" as the reason for any performance, and really that just ends up being a cop out.

Go back to the time where you had Imagineers who were truly creative, before the solution to every problem was "throw money at it until it goes away." You know, in the creation of Disneyland, the money was extremely tight. And it wasn't because "bean-counters" were in charge of the company; it was because there simply was no money to give to the Imagineers. The creation of some of the classic Disney attractions which still survive today, (Peter Pan, Mad Tea Party, Dumbo, Pirates, Haunted Mansion) hinged upon the fact that when the money was tight, Imagineers got creative. Haunted Mansion (pre-refurb) is a collection of simple, inexpensive magicians tricks which have been around for hundreds of years. Dumbo is a highly themed amusement park ride which has become a treasured memory. Heck, even the much-beloved Mr. Toads Wild Ride was a Coney-Island special.

It wasn't the money that was spent, it was the loving attention to the story, the theming, the painting with a wide brush which seems to have been forgotten. Heck, back in the day, when Bill Evans didn't have enough money to put themed plants into Adventureland, Walt didn't hand him a stack of bills and say "get to buying." They went through the land, putting placards with the Latin names of the weeds that were growing in the California wildlands. It was sure as heck creative, and it wasn't about Walt "cutting corners to save a buck" it was about getting it done with what you have.

I think the general public has become inured to large sums of money. When I hear about a budget of $70 million for one attraction, I think of exactly what that means. In no world should $70 million not be enough for ANYTHING that goes into a theme park. Think of what Walt could have done with that sum, even adjusted for inflation. And I am sure as shoot that nobody would have had the brass ones to approach Walt with a request for more money. Could you imagine Marc Davis, Claude Coates, or Fred Joerger saddling up beside Walt with a figure like that? They built all of Disneyland on $17 million.

In short, budgets are budgets. In the olden days, Imagineers stuck to their budgets because they had to. Going over budget was allowed to an extent, but at some point, there was no more money to go around. Now that the Disney Company has a good bit of coin, there is still no excuse for not getting the job done. You cannot replace creativity by "throwing money at it."

Creativity happens when you are forced to contend with budgets.
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
Just a quick note, since a lot of people around here are praising Imagineers almost unconditionally. Now there are some fantastic Imagineers that work in the Disney Company. Creative geniuses who are equal to none. But it seems that in the recent years, anytime anything isn't liked by the general internet going public, there is a lot of defensive statements for the Imagineers, with a major portion of the blame going to whom the armchair internet imagineers call "Bean-Counters."

You wanna blame the "bean-counters" for the quality of attractions, go ahead. Stick out your lip, pout, and cite "not having enough money to do the job" as the reason for any performance, and really that just ends up being a cop out.

Go back to the time where you had Imagineers who were truly creative, before the solution to every problem was "throw money at it until it goes away." You know, in the creation of Disneyland, the money was extremely tight. And it wasn't because "bean-counters" were in charge of the company; it was because there simply was no money to give to the Imagineers. The creation of some of the classic Disney attractions which still survive today, (Peter Pan, Mad Tea Party, Dumbo, Pirates, Haunted Mansion) hinged upon the fact that when the money was tight, Imagineers got creative. Haunted Mansion (pre-refurb) is a collection of simple, inexpensive magicians tricks which have been around for hundreds of years. Dumbo is a highly themed amusement park ride which has become a treasured memory. Heck, even the much-beloved Mr. Toads Wild Ride was a Coney-Island special.

It wasn't the money that was spent, it was the loving attention to the story, the theming, the painting with a wide brush which seems to have been forgotten. Heck, back in the day, when Bill Evans didn't have enough money to put themed plants into Adventureland, Walt didn't hand him a stack of bills and say "get to buying." They went through the land, putting placards with the Latin names of the weeds that were growing in the California wildlands. It was sure as heck creative, and it wasn't about Walt "cutting corners to save a buck" it was about getting it done with what you have.

I think the general public has become inured to large sums of money. When I hear about a budget of $70 million for one attraction, I think of exactly what that means. In no world should $70 million not be enough for ANYTHING that goes into a theme park. Think of what Walt could have done with that sum, even adjusted for inflation. And I am sure as shoot that nobody would have had the brass ones to approach Walt with a request for more money. Could you imagine Marc Davis, Claude Coates, or Fred Joerger saddling up beside Walt with a figure like that? They built all of Disneyland on $17 million.

In short, budgets are budgets. In the olden days, Imagineers stuck to their budgets because they had to. Going over budget was allowed to an extent, but at some point, there was no more money to go around. Now that the Disney Company has a good bit of coin, there is still no excuse for not getting the job done. You cannot replace creativity by "throwing money at it."

Creativity happens when you are forced to contend with budgets.

Here is another good article that speaks exactly of that:

http://jimhillmedia.com/blogs/jim_hill/archive/2006/07/25/4475.aspx
 

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